When do we fire Richie Hall?

[pigseye]

20 hours ago, 17to85 said:

They fired Dave Ritchie cause they were impatient for a cup, made the team worse and set it back years. They fired Doug Berry for the same reasons, made the team worse put it into a huge hole. 

I'd rather let this regime keep on putting up winning seasons rather than canning them thinking the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. If they start missing the playoffs then we will talk, but until then forget about the streak. It matters not. 

Ritchie & Berry were the only serious contenders they have managed to hire since they last won the cup. Too many stinkers in between is the problem. Hire qualified people to begin with and you have a far better chance of winning a championship (see Popp & Trestman) then hoping that people might develop into winners. Hiring Lapo three times and expecting different results is all you need to know about how serious they are of winning anything. This organization is happy with a couple winning seasons and not having the staff embarrass them publically, that's the height of the bar they have set.

[WBBFanWest]

8 minutes ago, pigseye said:

And how has that strategy worked out? It's not about how long you stick with somebody, it's about hiring the right people to begin with, which is where our problems have been.

So tell me if you would, how exactly do you hire the right people in the first place?   Do you have some sort of fool proof method of knowing that a particular coach/gm, is "the right one".  Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself with silliness like that comment.  Maybe we should just hire people on a one year basis?  Win the Cup in your first year or you're done because clearly, if you didn't win it all right away, you weren't "the right one".  Or maybe we should give them two years and allow them one gimme?  We were in the hiring churn for a long long time, and you can see (I hope) what that got us.  So maybe,  your strategy of firing people every two or three years, trying to find the "right one" isn't as smart a strategy as you thought?  The evidence clearly points that out, but again, never let facts get in the way.  Here's a fairly radical thought:  maybe we should hire people and as long as they continue to trend up, keep them around?  You know, sort of what we're actually doing.  

[rebusrankin]

Scouting needs to improve to be honest.

[SPuDS]

1 hour ago, pigseye said:

And how has that strategy worked out? It's not about how long you stick with somebody, it's about hiring the right people to begin with, which is where our problems have been.

this is the key part where this complaint goes south.. has been.  its looking like we have the right people at coach and GM now, wouldn't you agree?   restocked canadian depth.  very good win/loss ratio in back to back seasons...

[pigseye]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

So tell me if you would, how exactly do you hire the right people in the first place?   Do you have some sort of fool proof method of knowing that a particular coach/gm, is "the right one".  Honestly, you're embarrassing yourself with silliness like that comment.  Maybe we should just hire people on a one year basis?  Win the Cup in your first year or you're done because clearly, if you didn't win it all right away, you weren't "the right one".  Or maybe we should give them two years and allow them one gimme?  We were in the hiring churn for a long long time, and you can see (I hope) what that got us.  So maybe,  your strategy of firing people every two or three years, trying to find the "right one" isn't as smart a strategy as you thought?  The evidence clearly points that out, but again, never let facts get in the way.  Here's a fairly radical thought:  maybe we should hire people and as long as they continue to trend up, keep them around?  You know, sort of what we're actually doing.  

I'm glad you asked, I've been meaning to get a few things off my chest now that the season is officially over:

A. Hire proven winners, people who have had success in their current roles, not rookies as your GM and HC, would be a good start

B. They will in term hire quality co-ordinators, not people on their 3rd go around with the club or dog and pony shows like ******* Gary Etchevery and Rich Hall

C. They will also have connections in the football world, which is the USA and not Canada, a network to draw talent from. Do you even know who our Director of Player Personnel is? A ******* Canadian whose claim to fame is scouting junior football and CIS!!! Are you ******* kidding me, this must be a joke right, not.

[Sard]

5 minutes ago, pigseye said:

I'm glad you asked, I've been meaning to get a few things off my chest now that the season is officially over:

A. Hire proven winners, people who have had success in their current roles, not rookies as your GM and HC, would be a good start

B. They will in term hire quality co-ordinators, not people on their 3rd go around with the club or dog and pony shows like ******* Gary Etchevery and Rich Hall

C. They will also have connections in the football world, which is the USA and not Canada, a network to draw talent from. Do you even know who our Director of Player Personnel is? A ******* Canadian whose claim to fame is scouting junior football and CIS!!! Are you ******* kidding me, this must be a joke right, not.

Do you have a list of these proven winners who are available for the Bombers to hire?  It's easy to say "go out an hire Tressman and Popp", but it's another thing entirely to actually be able to get them.  You don't actually know who the Bombers pursued when they ended up hiring their current crew.  Also, at that time, the club was in a bad place and honestly, I don't think top tier talent was interested in joining that circus at that time.  The level of impatience that you are showing is exactly what got us to be that circus, and exactly why we couldn't attract top talent (coaches or players).  The current crew has brought a huge amount of respectability back to the franchise to the point where people what to be here, so have patience and good things will come...

 

...Or keep griping about what's been done in the past and continue to be upset with the team.  I for one am happy with where the team is trending.

[DR. CFL]

What do you think the price tag was for Tresman and Popp.?  Bauer wanted to hire Hufnagel when he left the NFL and the BoD wouldn't authorize that kind of salary. The bottom line is you get what you are willing to pay for.  Plain and simple.

[Blueandgold]

2 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

Scouting needs to improve to be honest.

Absolutely. Where are the receivers? The linebackers? Even the DB’s were questionable. 

[Noeller]

the whole "hire the best guys!" argument is so  old and tired. It's been debunked forever. The unfortunate reality is that we're talking about Winnipeg. We have a great new stadium and a stable hierarchy at the top, but we're still Winnipeg who hasn't won in a billion years and are not the most desirable city to live in (especially compared to Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, etc...) 

I remember Lawless going over all this before MOS was hired and saying "Listen, we're never going to get the Trestman's or Huff's of the world, so what we have to do is hire the very  best rookie we can get, and pray they develop"......

[USABomberfan]

1 hour ago, pigseye said:

I'm glad you asked, I've been meaning to get a few things off my chest now that the season is officially over:

A. Hire proven winners, people who have had success in their current roles, not rookies as your GM and HC, would be a good start

B. They will in term hire quality co-ordinators, not people on their 3rd go around with the club or dog and pony shows like ******* Gary Etchevery and Rich Hall

C. They will also have connections in the football world, which is the USA and not Canada, a network to draw talent from. Do you even know who our Director of Player Personnel is? A ******* Canadian whose claim to fame is scouting junior football and CIS!!! Are you ******* kidding me, this must be a joke right, not.

Well one thing about Mike O'Shea is the players would go through a wall for him.  Is he the best in-game management coach?  No, I won't dispute some of his calls in big games I highly disagree with.  But he's definitely a players coach, and I think it's refreshing to have that kind of coach in here.

His only weakness thus far is that he seems to have formed a bromance with Hall, and if he doesn't cut the chain there, he might very well prevent Andrew Harris and Matt Nichols from bringing home a cup for us before their careers expire.  I can only hope the WFP starts speaking up about this.

[SpeedFlex27]

7 hours ago, 17to85 said:

They both got fired cause Lyle Bauer wanted to replace them because he was desperate to be the man who brought a cup to Winnipeg. See how it works? You think there's something better out there and you make these rash moves and it winds up setting you back. 

There was talk that Bauer wanted to replace Ritchie way back in 2001, but they won enough games that year that an extension automatically kicked in and how can you move on when that season just happens? So Ritchie held tight to his veterans as the years moved on cause those were the guys he trusted when he knew Bauer was just waiting for any excuse to can him. 

Berry was a casualty of Bauer wanting to bring in Mike Kelly for sure, but it was the step back after making the Grey Cup in 07 that made it possible. Again, thinking the grass was greener on the other side. Look how long it took for the team to get back on stable footing after that disaster. 

 

Why are we in such a rush to fire people when they are winning more than they are losing currently and we are finally starting to rebuild some NI depth for the first time in god knows how long? 

Firing Hall is not firing O'Shea. How can you even draw parallels to that by comparing that to Ritchie? By your logic, Marcel Bellefeuille & Etcheverry would still be coaching here as coordinators because hey, firing people is such a bad thing. 

Edited November 29, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[Mark H.]

3 hours ago, SPuDS said:

this is the key part where this complaint goes south.. has been.  its looking like we have the right people at coach and GM now, wouldn't you agree?   restocked canadian depth.  very good win/loss ratio in back to back seasons...

Ummm, that's just a tad premature

[Guest J5V]

3 hours ago, Noeller said:

the whole "hire the best guys!" argument is so  old and tired. It's been debunked forever. The unfortunate reality is that we're talking about Winnipeg. We have a great new stadium and a stable hierarchy at the top, but we're still Winnipeg who hasn't won in a billion years and are not the most desirable city to live in (especially compared to Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, etc...) 

I remember Lawless going over all this before MOS was hired and saying "Listen, we're never going to get the Trestman's or Huff's of the world, so what we have to do is hire the very  best rookie we can get, and pray they develop"......

What a crock of ****. We have had some of the greatest coaches and players the CFL has ever known make Winnipeg their home. They were honoured and respected and brought many championships here over the years.

The reason we haven't brought any of those people here lately is simple  S-T-U-P-I-D-I-T-Y combined with a lack of will to do what's needed. We haven't won in 27 years thanks to a "Meh, should be good enough" attitude and a plethora of people like you willing to accept chicken **** and then tell us it's chicken soup. You've been eating that crap so long you've developed a taste for it.

[Noeller]

15 minutes ago, J5V said:

What a crock of ****. We have had some of the greatest coaches and players the CFL has ever known make Winnipeg their home. They were honoured and respected and brought many championships here over the years.

The reason we haven't brought any of those people here lately is simple  S-T-U-P-I-D-I-T-Y combined with a lack of will to do what's needed. We haven't won in 27 years thanks to a "Meh, should be good enough" attitude and a plethora of people like you willing to accept chicken **** and then tell us it's chicken soup. You've been eating that crap so long you've developed a taste for it.

How many of those great coaches were veterans with proven success elsewhere in the CFL? Ritchie is the only one I can think of... Riley was a rookie. Cal Murphy was a rookie. How far back you wanna go? Bud Grant was a rookie. 

They all panned out, thank Christ... 

[rebusrankin]

Cal was Head Coach for BC in 75 and 76. He then coached as an assistant for Montreal and Edmonton between 77 and 82 winning six consecutive Grey Cups. Not a rookie.

[Sard]

For all of you who keep saying that we should be hiring experienced, proven winners, I have to ask how that works going forward?  If every team used that philosophy, what happens when all of the "proven winners" decide to hang it up?  At some point, teams need to bring in rookie coaches that they think can develop into "proven winners". 

Have all of the decisions made by the Bombers over the past 27 years been good ones?  Definitely not, but you can't hang all of those past poor decisions on the current group.  Wade Miller, Kyle Walters, and Mike O'Shea have only been in their current positions for 4 years, and all of them were new to the positions when they started.  There have been some growing pains, but the team has been consistently trending up in all aspects since they started.  Game day experience has improved, and the team is exciting to watch (which speaks to the players that have been brought in as well as how they've been coached to play).  Not everything they have done has been perfect, but no team has been perfect in their decision making.  We take the good with the bad, and for my money, the good in the past few years has by far outweighed the bad.

[SPuDS]

13 hours ago, Mark H. said:

Ummm, that's just a tad premature

How so? 2 starting calibre Canadian receivers, well stocked O-line, D-line has great canadian depth and our STs are some of the best and majority of them are Canadians as well..

 

I think our canadian content has not been this good since the days where we had 4+ on the O-line

[TBURGESS]

Toronto hired Trestman and won the Grey Cup this year. Riders hired Jones who got them into the playoffs and a playoff win in year 2. Hamilton's Jones turned that team around in half a year. It could be argued that he'd have made the playoffs if he'd had the whole year. All 3 of those coaches took over teams as bad as the one that MOS did.

We chose MOS and we'll go into year 5 still looking for our first playoff victory.

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Toronto hired Trestman and won the Grey Cup this year. Riders hired Jones who got them into the playoffs and a playoff win in year 2. Hamilton's Jones turned that team around in half a year. It could be argued that he'd have made the playoffs if he'd had the whole year. All 3 of those coaches took over teams as bad as the one that MOS did.

We chose MOS and we'll go into year 5 still looking for our first playoff victory.

I suggest that we will be stuck with O'Shea (at least) for another year, and Walters probably beyond that, but I do not know how much more rope Miller will be able to give them.

[SPuDS]

11 hours ago, J5V said:

What a crock of ****. We have had some of the greatest coaches and players the CFL has ever known make Winnipeg their home. They were honoured and respected and brought many championships here over the years.

The reason we haven't brought any of those people here lately is simple  S-T-U-P-I-D-I-T-Y combined with a lack of will to do what's needed. We haven't won in 27 years thanks to a "Meh, should be good enough" attitude and a plethora of people like you willing to accept chicken **** and then tell us it's chicken soup. You've been eating that crap so long you've developed a taste for it.

You realize you are referencing vastly different eras as well... the last decade and a bit has been very poorly ran, nobody can deny that but since Miller and co have taken over, its beginning to look like the ways of old are returning.    Nobody here has accepted chicken **** and just swallowed it, unless you have blanked out over the last 10 years..  people have been highly critical of the team and the players brought in.  Its not our fault you haven't bought into whats been going on for the last 4 years but to suggest its on par with the previous regimes failures is pretty asinine.   The ship seems pretty righted to me at the moment in comparison to before.

[Noeller]

11 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

Cal was Head Coach for BC in 75 and 76. He then coached as an assistant for Montreal and Edmonton between 77 and 82 winning six consecutive Grey Cups. Not a rookie.

Lots of assistants.....almost NO HCs....didn't know about Cal in BC. Thought it was just Edm as Asst.....but my point remains the same. Winnipeg is a destination for rookies...not in-demand, experienced vets.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Lots of assistants.....almost NO HCs....didn't know about Cal in BC. Thought it was just Edm as Asst.....but my point remains the same. Winnipeg is a destination for rookies...not in-demand, experienced vets.

The thing is, every great coach is a rookie at some point. You gotta hire right people and let them grow into the proven winners, and I think Mike O'Shea is well on his way to that. I mean christ, this team has just won 11 and 12 games in the past 2 seasons. It's not like they're barely limping into the playoffs or anything. 

[Noeller]

Just now, 17to85 said:

The thing is, every great coach is a rookie at some point. You gotta hire right people and let them grow into the proven winners, and I think Mike O'Shea is well on his way to that. I mean christ, this team has just won 11 and 12 games in the past 2 seasons. It's not like they're barely limping into the playoffs or anything. 

exactly this....we're never going to be the place where a proven, in-demand vet coach goes........but if we hire right, we can get the "next" great, proven, in-demand vet coach.....

[wbbfan]

On 11/27/2017 at 1:22 AM, Brandon said:

So will they let go of Hall before the end of the year or nay?

If it doesnt happen by the end of December, it wont. And i dont think they will short of a great DC becoming available, or hall being un willing to adjust the scheme on D. 

[GCn20]

3 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The thing is, every great coach is a rookie at some point. You gotta hire right people and let them grow into the proven winners, and I think Mike O'Shea is well on his way to that. I mean christ, this team has just won 11 and 12 games in the past 2 seasons. It's not like they're barely limping into the playoffs or anything. 

I can't complain about the coaching, but a roster that can win a playoff game would be nice.