When do we fire Richie Hall?

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, Atomic said:

What experienced head coach with a winning history was available in 2014, when O'Shea was hired?

Tom Higgins.

[Guest J5V]

There are always experienced coaches available every year. 

[Noeller]

17 minutes ago, J5V said:

This whole "only hire rookies" thing is a farce and outside of a few people in here I doubt many are buying it. O'Shea had almost zero coaching experience when he came here. Three years as a special teams coach in Toronto. He certainly wasn't ready to be a head coach and I said then it'll take him 10 years to become a great coach, if he ever does. Who is willing to wait decades for coaches to maybe become great? C'mon! What kind of a ****** strategy is that? Hire the right frigging people and give them something to work with and you can win it all in a year! Don't give us this crap about experienced coaches not wanting to come here. Plenty of them have come here, just show them the money and give them something to work with. Man, you guys can sling the hooey in here.

Just a complete and total load of crap.

[Noeller]

6 minutes ago, J5V said:

There are always experienced coaches available every year. 

as is this.

[Jacquie]

12 minutes ago, J5V said:

There are always experienced coaches available every year. 

And usually they are available because they were fired for not getting results. 

[Noeller]

3 minutes ago, Jacquie said:

And usually they are available because they were fired for not getting results. 

no kidding...just because Tom ******* Higgins is available and experienced, doesn't mean he's any good! Get your head out of your ass, J5V.....

[Mr Dee]

From the Dept. of Hiring the Right People:

Back in 2014 when Mike O’Shea was hired as your Head Coach, we, at the Dept., had just undergone a transformation from the Dept. of Enlisting Winners, or DEW, as it was known. 

With that transformation came new people. We tried to hire personnel with experience in hiring people with experience, but our experience was that it became unavoidable but to hire ‘promising hirers’, as it were. 

And, as it turns out, we were closed for a period of time (2 weeks) during this changeover, exactly 4 years ago. 

This was on the recommendation of Tom Higgins, who I understand, is knowledgable in the CFL.

I hope that clears things up for those who are concerned. 

Yours truly,

Ben T. Wright

[wbbfan]

6 minutes ago, Noeller said:

no kidding...just because Tom ******* Higgins is available and experienced, doesn't mean he's any good! Get your head out of your ass, J5V.....

QFT. I feel like this is a thin era for coaching. The league has a fist full of guys as HCs I wouldnt touch with a 10 foot clown pole. Maas? Jones? Saveface reed?  Even the all mighty buono is on his last legs.  Im a big big fan of june jones, but hes a rook up here with no TCs and while I think he will succeed hes a bit of a gamble. He came into a situation with nothing to lose and they didnt make the play offs in the east. Dis honorable mention to austin. Cus thats a stone cold no too. 

You can allways go for a higgins, or a danny macioca but just the though makes me throw up a bit. 

If I had to pick a guy to be a HC right now, id be looking at a top CO, and bring in some proven Cos to support em. Id take plop over a good few guys coaching right now if he agreed to not micro manage the offense I think he'd do well.  

Obligatory *tim burke should still be a *DC in the league comment here. Replace with your favorite guy whose gone but not coming back. 

[Floyd]

3 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

I completely disagree with this statement. They aren't all stars. but they are solid. Didn't Coates have the 2nd most amount of catches in the play off game? Behind only Dressler. I thought I read that. And Journeymen??? Both have only every played with one other team.

Two things stand out in this post:

1.  Coates with the 2nd most catches is a sign that everyone else was covered not that he's on the cusp of being an all-star

2. You don't know what journeyman means.

[Atomic]

56 minutes ago, J5V said:

There are always experienced coaches available every year. 

Surely you can come up with a name then.  Go ahead, don't be shy.

59 minutes ago, tracker said:

Tom Higgins.

And what a fantastic job he did in his last stop!

[Noeller]

22 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Two things stand out in this post:

1.  Coates with the 2nd most catches is a sign that everyone else was covered not that he's on the cusp of being an all-star

2. You don't know what journeyman means.

Cite your proof...

[DR. CFL]

Part of any coaches element of success, be it assistant or HC is to put himself in a situation and organization that will provide him with the best chance to be successful. Numerous coaches have been good but not been successful because of a poor environment 

[Mr Dee]

23 minutes ago, Floyd said:

1.  Coates with the 2nd most catches is a sign that everyone else was covered not that he's on the cusp of being an all-star

Hey hey, let’s not understate the performance of that 26 year old in a playoff game. 

8 receptions for 100 yards, 19 of which were yac yards. That’s a pretty darned good game for our National receiver whether others were covered or not. It opens up possibilities for using more than 1 Nat. receiver if the need arises.

Imagine that, using Coates when uncovered..

[Bigblue204]

34 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Two things stand out in this post:

1.  Coates with the 2nd most catches is a sign that everyone else was covered not that he's on the cusp of being an all-star

2. You don't know what journeyman means.

Did i say he was going to be an all star? Yes im sure every play that coates caught a ball he was the 5th option....Nichols looked at every rec and decided he was the only one open. That includes his deep ball. He must have a strong arm to hold the ball that long and still hit him in stride.

So basically every one in the CFL is a journeyman than? Bowman, jackson, hazelton, sinopolli, williams, harris, flanders, bryant, etc etc etc etc  (just include damn near every player) is a journeyman with that as the guideline.

[wbbfan]

50 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

Part of any coaches element of success, be it assistant or HC is to put himself in a situation and organization that will provide him with the best chance to be successful. Numerous coaches have been good but not been successful because of a poor environment 

Thats the truth, but its the coach and managements job to create that winning environment. Bill walsh instructed every part of his organization how to go about their job to create a winning atmosphere. Down to how the secretaries answered the phone. 

Being willing and having the management/owners support to clear out the talented but toxic types and being willing to bring in COs with higher aspirations isnt easy. But greatness doesnt come easy. Good in pro sports very quickly becomes gone. Good is the enemy of great. 

Gotta give mos, walters, and miller all the credit on that. They stuck to it and were willing to take the lumps to create a winning environment. 

[Floyd]

57 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Did i say he was going to be an all star? Yes im sure every play that coates caught a ball he was the 5th option....Nichols looked at every rec and decided he was the only one open. That includes his deep ball. He must have a strong arm to hold the ball that long and still hit him in stride.

So basically every one in the CFL is a journeyman than? Bowman, jackson, hazelton, sinopolli, williams, harris, flanders, bryant, etc etc etc etc  (just include damn near every player) is a journeyman with that as the guideline.

Two things again stand out:

1.  I agree Coates can be a 2-3 target player...  10-12 targets and your game plan is definitely 'off' or Lapo is overthinking

2. You still did not take time to look up journeyman.

[Tracker]

3 hours ago, Atomic said:

Surely you can come up with a name then.  Go ahead, don't be shy.

And what a fantastic job he did in his last stop!

Are you seriously blaming him for the gong show that was going on in Montreal, or fault him for firing a subordinate coach for coming into a morning meeting drinking? If you want to compare him to other coaches, perhaps you should consider how many Grey Cups he has won compared to Jones, O'Shea , Dickinson, Maas etc. Higgins has been the recipient of some bad organizational politics and may or may not be a great coach, but there is reason to believe he is a good one. 

[WBBFanWest]

8 minutes ago, tracker said:

Are you seriously blaming him for the gong show that was going on in Montreal, or fault him for firing a subordinate coach for coming into a morning meeting drinking? If you want to compare him to other coaches, perhaps you should consider how many Grey Cups he has won compared to Jones, O'Shea , Dickinson, Maas etc. Higgins has been the recipient of some bad organizational politics and may or may not be a great coach, but there is reason to believe he is a good one. 

Don't see a ton of people beating down his door today though.  Higgins is at best a tier 2 level HC.  At best.  If anyone is holding him up as an example of a quality coach with experience, then Kevin Glenn is a quality experienced QB.  By the way, Higgins has won a grand total of 1 Grey Cup as a HC  in nine seasons.  Seven of those season were with Edmonton and Calgary, so I'm not sure where you're getting this "bad organizational politics" stuff from.  That's not exactly screaming "quality".

Edited November 30, 2017 by WBBFanWest

[Guest J5V]

3 hours ago, Noeller said:

no kidding...just because Tom ******* Higgins is available and experienced, doesn't mean he's any good! Get your head out of your ass, J5V.....

Put down the pipe, Noeller. I never mentioned Tom Higgins, did I? What's wrong with you lately?

Think man. Where did a coach like Mike Riley come from? Hell, where did Trestman come from? Where did they learn their chops? There's loads of guys like that down there. It's no accident they come up here and win championships. Had we done any real searching at all, instead of walking down the hall and hiring Walters and his buddy, O'Shea, we might have found a gem that would have been willing to come here. But no, let's settle for the greenest of rookies at HC and GM and pretend it's a grand idea. S.M.H.

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, J5V said:

Put down the pipe, Noeller. I never mentioned Tom Higgins, did I? What's wrong with you lately?

Think man. Where did a coach like Mike Riley come from? Hell, where did Trestman come from? Where did they learn their chops? There's loads of guys like that down there. It's no accident they come up here and win championships. Had we done any real searching at all, instead of walking down the hall and hiring Walters and his buddy, O'Shea, we might have found a gem that would have been willing to come here. But no, let's settle for the greenest of rookies at HC and GM and pretend it's a grand idea. S.M.H.

I'm not unhappy with the job O'Shea has done although had he held onto Willy as the starter for another month it's a good chance he'd be coaching elsewhere by now. The only question I have is when I see Ottawa win the GC in their third year & the Argos do the same going from 5-13 to a championship, why is what we do a "process" that is taking so long? 

[Guest J5V]

8 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I'm not unhappy with the job O'Shea has done although had he held onto Willy as the starter for another month it's a good chance he'd be coaching elsewhere by now. The only question I have is when I see Ottawa win the GC in their third year & the Argos do the same going from 5-13 to a championship, why is what we do a "process" that is taking so long? 

I'm not unhappy with the job he's done either, for the most part, but don't try to sell me on this notion that the only kind of good coach we can get in here is the greenest rookie. That's BS. 

As to the "process". That's a load of hooey as well. With the right people and the will to do it it can obviously be done in a very short period of time.

Edited November 30, 2017 by J5V
grammar

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, J5V said:

Put down the pipe, Noeller. I never mentioned Tom Higgins, did I? What's wrong with you lately?

Think man. Where did a coach like Mike Riley come from? Hell, where did Trestman come from? Where did they learn their chops? There's loads of guys like that down there. It's no accident they come up here and win championships. Had we done any real searching at all, instead of walking down the hall and hiring Walters and his buddy, O'Shea, we might have found a gem that would have been willing to come here. But no, let's settle for the greenest of rookies at HC and GM and pretend it's a grand idea. S.M.H.

I am of the opinion that if we'd had a seasoned head coach or a seasoned GM, our wandering in the wilderness would have been shorter, and we're still not at the edge of the promised land yet. Walters and O'Shea deserve one more year, but that's it, with the caveat that if, O'Shea decides to hang onto Hall, then it's time to roll the tumbrel up.

[wbbfan]

33 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I'm not unhappy with the job O'Shea has done although had he held onto Willy as the starter for another month it's a good chance he'd be coaching elsewhere by now. The only question I have is when I see Ottawa win the GC in their third year & the Argos do the same going from 5-13 to a championship, why is what we do a "process" that is taking so long? 

Not the keenest on osh either.  But what they are doing is clearly more tuned to the long run. The blue need to be regulars in the play offs for a good few years. To, the market is bandwagon jumpers. They can be feast or famine. Not to mention that the last franchise the league would let fail. They have a considerable net. 

Both teams also play in the east. If the worst team in the west had played the whole year in the east, they have as good a shot at winning out as the argos. Way she goes. The prairies are the home to high quality football.  (im including alberta, awful I know but I lump them in) The east is the pits. 

Also cant under estimate the job pop and trestman did. Trestman is legit a great coach. A next level guy at teaching and leading his players.  I honestly believe 1 or 2 more players and he would still be with the bears. 

I think the question is, do we go all in? We are in a position imo where we could forge ourselves into the GC favorite.  Are we willing to mortgage or out right sell the future? Our picks, rights to gray, mulumba, some of the young nucks like corney and our OL, we could spend aggressively and pre pare to pay penalties etc. 

Also on ott, every one kinda thought desjardins was nuts. Hank AND harris, and all those wrs. It wasnt a long term core but he gambled and won. I respect the crap outta that. He found some real good talent too. 

 

[Sard]

17 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

 What a ridiculous suggestion/comparison.

I compared the results of 3 experienced coaches taking over bad teams to MOS. I didn't suggest that every experienced HC could win the Grey Cup every year.  I showed the actual results of hiring professionals compared to hiring guys who have to learn on the job. You may not like the comparison, because it doesn't show MOS in a great light, but at least get the comparison I'm making straight.

I'm not suggesting that we blow everything up and start over this year. MOS has 2 more years on his contract, but if he doesn't at least win a playoff game next year, I'd be looking for an experienced HC to get us to the next level. 4 years without a playoff win is bad enough. 5 years should be a firing offense.

While am at it... Firing the HC when we already have a good core of players isn't the same thing as starting from scratch again or blowing the whole thing up. It's making a change to try and change the results. 

You're absolutely right that it's a ridiculous comparison.  That was my point (should have added the <sarcasm> tag.  To say that hiring a "proven winner" would have been the answer is just as ridiculous.  Someone here suggested Tom Higgins should have been hired over O'Shea, but as proven in his last tenure as HC, it didn't work out.  Has the Bombers hired an experienced coach, and it hadn't worked out, everyone on here who is saying O'Shea was the wrong choice would be saying that we shouldn't have hired an old retread who was past his prime, even if he had proven to be successful in the past.

 

Some of you just can be pleased, and unless the Bombers go 18-0 in a season, and shutout their opponents in every game, you won't be happy with what's going on here.  The Bombers are in an excellent place right now... winning seasons, playoff appearances, entertaining and exciting product on the field, and an excellent culture to boot.

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, Sard said:

You're absolutely right that it's a ridiculous comparison.  That was my point (should have added the <sarcasm> tag.  To say that hiring a "proven winner" would have been the answer is just as ridiculous.  Someone here suggested Tom Higgins should have been hired over O'Shea, but as proven in his last tenure as HC, it didn't work out.  Has the Bombers hired an experienced coach, and it hadn't worked out, everyone on here who is saying O'Shea was the wrong choice would be saying that we shouldn't have hired an old retread who was past his prime, even if he had proven to be successful in the past.

Some of you just can be pleased, and unless the Bombers go 18-0 in a season, and shutout their opponents in every game, you won't be happy with what's going on here.  The Bombers are in an excellent place right now... winning seasons, playoff appearances, entertaining and exciting product on the field, and an excellent culture to boot.

By your logic, Toronto should never have hired either Popp or Trestman and the Lions should have passed on Buono because their previous HC  jobs did not end well.