SpeedFlex27 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 7 hours ago, Jesse said: I don't think anyone puts Allen up there with Flutie and Moon, etc. though. It seems less that he's overrated and more that Noeller wants to add a "yeah, but" anytime someone mentions his accomplishments. I'd put Allen right up there with Flutie & Moon. coach17 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 4 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said: I'd put Allen right up there with Flutie & Moon. Well, that's just ridiculous. JCon, Noeller, bigg jay and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedFlex27 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Jesse said: Well, that's just ridiculous. Nope. Stats don't lie. You look at what Allen did & accomplished & besides those two, who was better? If you can tell me I'd be interested. Who threw for more than 72,000 yards during their career in the CFL? There's only been one & was he truly better? How many qbs won 4 championships with 3 different teams in the Canadian Football or Pro Football HOF's? There are plenty of qbs who won multiple championships with one or 2 teams but 3 at different times?? How many CFL qbs are undefeated as a GC champion 4 times? How many qbs rushed for nearly 12,000 yards? How many qbs had a hand in nearly 400 touchdowns running & passing? If these landmark stats are so pedestrian & easy to get to &/or pass as a player then how come ony one guy has done it so far? Where are Doug Flutie, Dieter Brock, Tom Clements, Ron Lancaster, Jackie Parker, Sam Etcheverry, Ricky Ray, Conredge Holloway, Tracy Ham, Matt Dunigan & others? It should have been a cake walk but it wasn't. I'd like to know your answer. Edited January 4 by SpeedFlex27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 On 2024-01-03 at 7:15 PM, Jesse said: Well, that's just ridiculous. This is what I mean by massively overrated. Allen is nowhere near those guys. Flutie and Moon are the two best to ever play the position up here and among the best to ever play football anywhere, period. Damon Allen is a guy who played a long time and rarely got hurt. Bigblue204 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebusrankin Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Flutie won 3 Grey Cups in 8 seasons and 6 MOPs. Moon won 5 Grey Cups albeit only the last three as a starter in 6 seasons with 1 MOP. I'd personally put those 2 as the best QBs in CFL history and I think many would as well. Both are easily ahead of Damon Allen. Bigblue204 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Noeller said: This is what I mean by massively overrated. Allen is nowhere near those guys. Flutie and Moon are the two best to ever play the position up here and among the best to ever play football anywhere, period. Damon Allen is a guy who played a long time and rarely got hurt. Christ sakes. One crazy person doesn't really equal overrated. Playing football for that long is an accomplishment. And he had some very good seasons. And was probably the best athlete to ever play the position. I'm not going to sit here and say anything bad about him. But is he in the TOP tier? Of course not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 34 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said: I'd put Allen right up there with Flutie & Moon. Well that's a piping hot wrong take 7 minutes ago, rebusrankin said: Flutie won 3 Grey Cups in 8 seasons and 6 MOPs. Moon won 5 Grey Cups albeit only the last three as a starter in 6 seasons with 1 MOP. I'd personally put those 2 as the best QBs in CFL history and I think many would as well. Both are easily ahead of Damon Allen. Also from more recent times Anthony calvillo, Ricky Ray just for a start. Give me time and I'll come up with a whole God damn list of better quarterbacks who played at the same time as Damon Allen. And yes even though I despise him Henry Burris is included in that group. Noeller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jesse Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 18 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said: Nope. Stats don't lie. You look at what Allen did & accomplished & besides those two, who was better? If you can tell me I'd be interested. Who threw for more than 72,000 yards during their career in the CFL? There's only been one & was he truly better? How many qbs won 4 championships with 3 different teams in the Canadian Football or Pro Football HOF's? There are plenty of qbs who won multiple championships with one or 2 teams but 3 at different times?? How many qbs are undefeated as a champion 4 times? How many qbs rushed for nearly 12,000 yards? How many qbs had a hand in nearly 400 touchdowns running or passing? I'd like to know your answer. He accomplished so much over a long career. It is very impressive. But looking season by season. He passed for over 4000 yards two times. He passed for over 30 TDs two times. Even if you add in his rushing TDs, he only crossed the 30 TD mark 4 times total. Flutie, for example played in the CFL for 8 seasons and surpassed 5000 yards and 30 TDs in 6 of them (every year he was the starter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyAbonny Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 I like Allen but I couldn’t put him in my top 10 From just QB’s in the last 30 years, I’d take any of Flutie, Ray, Garcia, AC, Ham, BLM in his prime, Danny Mac, Garcia, Dunnigan or Collaros over Damon Allen. That’s not counting guys I’ve only seen play after the fact like Moon or Clements. TBURGESS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said: Nope. Stats don't lie. You look at what Allen did & accomplished & besides those two, who was better? If you can tell me I'd be interested. Who threw for more than 72,000 yards during their career in the CFL? There's only been one & was he truly better? How many qbs won 4 championships with 3 different teams in the Canadian Football or Pro Football HOF's? There are plenty of qbs who won multiple championships with one or 2 teams but 3 at different times?? How many CFL qbs are undefeated as a GC champion 4 times? How many qbs rushed for nearly 12,000 yards? How many qbs had a hand in nearly 400 touchdowns running & passing? If these landmark stats are so pedestrian & easy to get to &/or pass as a player then how come ony one guy has done it so far? Where are Doug Flutie, Dieter Brock, Tom Clements, Ron Lancaster, Jackie Parker, Sam Etcheverry, Ricky Ray, Conredge Holloway, Tracy Ham, Matt Dunigan & others? It should have been a cake walk but it wasn't. I'd like to know your answer. 79,816 - Anthony Calvillo 72,381 - Damon Allen 63,227 - Henry Burris 60,736 - Ricky Ray 53,255 - Danny McManus 52,867 - Kevin Glenn 50,535 - Ron Lancaster 43,857 - Matt Dunigan 41,355 - Doug Flutie 40,534 - Tracy Ham Based on your logic Kevin Glenn is vastly superior to Doug Flutie because he had 11 000 more passing yards. Henry Burris completely destroys Flutie with 22 000 more yards! Allen was MOP only once in his 23 seasons in the CFL. In his 23 seasons, he only had one season where he had a QB rating over 100 in which he was the starter. Trevor Harris has had 7 seasons with a QBR of over 100 and only missed it this season when he was a 94.4 rating. Career 56% completion. The dude was an A+ athlete but not even in the conversation for the top 10 best CFL QB of all time. Allen was an athletic durable B to B+ level QB who ended his career on a higher note that really helped his legacy. Edited January 4 by Brandon Bigblue204 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 1 hour ago, JohnnyAbonny said: I like Allen but I couldn’t put him in my top 10 From just QB’s in the last 30 years, I’d take any of Flutie, Ray, Garcia, AC, Ham, BLM in his prime, Danny Mac, Garcia, Dunnigan or Collaros over Damon Allen. That’s not counting guys I’ve only seen play after the fact like Moon or Clements. Don't forget Dickenson... All listed are far FAR better than Damon "I'm still playing!" Allen. JohnnyAbonny 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 The only real thing that boost Allen is his success in championship games.... but how much is that really worth when the actual top qbs also have a plethora of grey cups too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuranBoldenRules Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 Damon Allen is the Saskatchewan Roughriders of CFL QBs. JCon, Bigblue204 and Noeller 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedFlex27 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 8 hours ago, Brandon said: 79,816 - Anthony Calvillo 72,381 - Damon Allen 63,227 - Henry Burris 60,736 - Ricky Ray 53,255 - Danny McManus 52,867 - Kevin Glenn 50,535 - Ron Lancaster 43,857 - Matt Dunigan 41,355 - Doug Flutie 40,534 - Tracy Ham Based on your logic Kevin Glenn is vastly superior to Doug Flutie because he had 11 000 more passing yards. Henry Burris completely destroys Flutie with 22 000 more yards! Allen was MOP only once in his 23 seasons in the CFL. In his 23 seasons, he only had one season where he had a QB rating over 100 in which he was the starter. Trevor Harris has had 7 seasons with a QBR of over 100 and only missed it this season when he was a 94.4 rating. Career 56% completion. The dude was an A+ athlete but not even in the conversation for the top 10 best CFL QB of all time. Allen was an athletic durable B to B+ level QB who ended his career on a higher note that really helped his legacy. I never said Kevin Glenn was vastly superior to Doug Flutie. You just did. It's amazing how stats can be ignored when trying to make a point by some people. My point is these numbers (72,000 passing yards) is very difficult to get to. A pedestrian, average qb would never be able to do it. Seems that's all he is here according to fans like you. Just an average dude who happened to put a few good seasons together & look what happened? There are plenty of 56% completion percentage qbs (or less) in the HOF. Hank is in the CFHOF so it doesn't matter if Hank, Allen or Flutie are better. They all made it. And yes, I believe that Allen is in the conversation for the ten best. Only Allen & Ricky Ray have won 4 GC championships. so they have to be. Any fan who says otherwise is just ignoring the obvious because of some kind of petty dislike for Allen because he played for other teams. Edited January 4 by SpeedFlex27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedFlex27 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 (edited) 6 hours ago, 17to85 said: The only real thing that boost Allen is his success in championship games.... but how much is that really worth when the actual top qbs also have a plethora of grey cups too? Hank Burris 2. AC 3, Danny McManus 2. Kevin Glenn 0. Ron Lancaster 1. Doug Flutie 3. Matt Dunigan 2. Tracy Ham 2. Russ Jackson 3. Tom Wilkinson 2. Warren Moon 3. Ken Ploen 3. (Jim Van Pelt was the starting qb for the Bombers in 1958 while Ploen played safety). Ricky Ray 4. Not a lot of plethora winning GC qbs with 4 other than Allen & Ray. The debate is eternal & a lot of fans can't have it both ways. In the sense that Fran Tarkenton & Jim Kelly reached 3 & 4 Super Bowls respectively but never won so there legacy as great qbs mean nothing as the only thing that counts when it comes to greatness are championships. In the CFL, Sam Etcheverry while held in high esteem by the fans that still remember him, is still the qb who lost 3 consecutive Grey Cups to Edmonton. It's all about championships when the greats are being talked about. Edited January 4 by SpeedFlex27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpeedFlex27 Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said: Damon Allen is the Saskatchewan Roughriders of CFL QBs. And yet, there's Damon Allen having done something those same Riders can't do. Win championships. Allen has the same number of Grey Cups wins as a qb that the Riders organization have won in 114 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HardCoreBlue Posted January 4 Report Share Posted January 4 8 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said: Damon Allen is the Saskatchewan Roughriders of CFL QBs. Rough Rider fan response to this: 'Hey than . . . . wait a second . . .'. 11 hours ago, JohnnyAbonny said: I like Allen but I couldn’t put him in my top 10 From just QB’s in the last 30 years, I’d take any of Flutie, Ray, Garcia, AC, Ham, BLM in his prime, Danny Mac, Garcia, Dunnigan or Collaros over Damon Allen. That’s not counting guys I’ve only seen play after the fact like Moon or Clements. His football IQ was out of this world. Noeller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doublezero Posted January 5 Report Share Posted January 5 I'll bet that with Scott Milanovich as HC, and even with BLM reportedly restructured and Taylor Powell still under contract, that Ti-Cats will still be in on the Dru Brown sweepstakes, driving up the final price for whoever gets him. Bombers do have the leverage of being able to guarantee 50% of the 2nd year of any contract offer for Brown. Will that be enough to keep him? If we lose Brown it'll be reminiscent of the Danny McManus situation after the '92 GC loss where Bombers let a promising rookie go in favour of an old veteran (loved Dunigan BTW) who was on the downswing. And we know what happened after that - McManus basically tore up the CFL throwing strikes for just about every team in the league - except Winnipeg. Bigblue204 and Noeller 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickem Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 23 hours ago, Doublezero said: And we know what happened after that - McManus basically tore up the CFL throwing strikes for just about every team in the league - except Winnipeg. .....yeah....strange move by Bomber management at the time...I could see Danny was going to be a talent in this league and really looked good in the Cup win we had vs. the Esks., when we trounced them 50 to 11...Big mistake letting him go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlue4ever Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 1 hour ago, Stickem said: .....yeah....strange move by Bomber management at the time...I could see Danny was going to be a talent in this league and really looked good in the Cup win we had vs. the Esks., when we trounced them 50 to 11...Big mistake letting him go I won’t deny that he had potential, but he was hardly the sure thing with Winnipeg that people seem to remember with 20/20 hindsight. His 1990 Grey Cup performance was one TD pass in garbage time with the team up 43-11 and the defender fell down in pass coverage. He had a 45% completion rate in his time in Winnipeg, and did not even become a full time starter until 1995 in BC, when he threw for 19 TDs and 26 INTs that year, then was let go to Edmonton. He became a back-up specialist in 1994, known for coming off the bench to pull out games, like the Grey Cup that year. But his passer rating was middling at best. Even in his MVP season in 1999 in Hamilton his rating was a career best 92.4, and he was only over 80.0 four times in 17 years, while being worse than 73.0 eleven times. He only hit 60% in completion percentage once. He threw more INTs than TDs in 11 of his 17 seasons, and only once was his TD:INT ratio better than 2:1. Now, he was good at piling up passing yards, going over 4,000 nine times. And he was brilliant at avoiding sacks in Hamilton, where 4 times in 7 seasons the team gave up less than one sack a game, including a ridiculous 7 in 18 games in 1999 (credit the o-line and his quick release for that). And he was a winner, having a funny streak of getting to every other Grey Cup (and winning every second time he got there) for his first few years (1990 win, 92 loss, 94 win, 96 loss, 98 broke the streak as he got to the Cup but lost, and then winning in 99 in his last appearance - his only win as a starter). Bottom line, he was very good but it took more than a few years (and three more teams) after he left Winnipeg to hit his elite level. So it wasn’t an obvious gaffe when we let him go (although I personally was a bit disappointed). If I remember correctly, it was a contract dispute with Cal Murphy that led to his departure. He wanted starter type money and a starting role which we were not going to give him (and neither did BC for 3 seasons after he signed there) and it got a bit personal, with Cal quoted as referring to him as “that little red-headed piss ant”. One last story about him I remember. One of the Bombers star defensive linemen or linebackers of the late 90’s and 2000’s (I cannot remember who) mentioned when he was with Hamilton, that McManus would telegraph if it was going to be a running play or a passing play every single time based on his foot position pre-snap under centre, and he was unaware he was tipping off teams to it. Despite this, his sack totals against were astronomically low, in large part due to a standard three step drop and release. And now you know……the rest of the story. Jesse and Doublezero 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GCn20 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Damon Allen early career was a great QB. Mid to late career journeyman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stickem Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 23 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said: And now you know……the rest of the story. Yes ....hindsight is always 20/20 BUT I could see the potential early....You have to admit he had one helluva arm and those passes eventually had accuracy.....which unfortunately we didn't benefit from as he moved on...His rise to something special came in Ham.....He finally figured the game out there and his teaming up with Flutie for over 5,000 yds was quite impressive....Reminds me a little bit of Schoen and Zack when they get rolling...In any event Danny ended up having a solid CFL career and his being a part of the Bombers today is greatly appreciated Doublezero, TrueBlue4ever and Mark H. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 On 2024-01-05 at 10:12 AM, Doublezero said: reminiscent of the Danny McManus situation after the '92 GC loss where Bombers let a promising rookie go in favour of an old veteran (loved Dunigan BTW) who was on the downswing. And we know what happened after that - McManus basically tore up the CFL throwing strikes for just about every team in the league - except Winnipeg. Wasn't is Danny Mac with a sweet touchdown strike to juran Bolden in the 2001 east final to secure a spot in the cup game? Doublezero and Noeller 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 On 1/3/2024 at 7:36 PM, Noeller said: This is what I mean by massively overrated. Allen is nowhere near those guys. Flutie and Moon are the two best to ever play the position up here and among the best to ever play football anywhere, period. Damon Allen is a guy who played a long time and rarely got hurt. So Moon and Flutie are Jordan Allen is Lebron? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 31 minutes ago, Goalie said: So Moon and Flutie are Jordan Allen is Lebron? Allen is maybe Mugsy Bogues.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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