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Just caught up on snap counts for the season...folks had asked in a different thread. 211 defensive snaps (including penalty plays were the play wasn't stopped early): Vaughters - 189 Jefferson - 182 Thomas - 144 Lawson - 129 Adams - 117 Kornelson - 26

In general, I agree with this; however, guys also have to earn their stay in the lineup. If not, give the next guy a chance. If he's not better, revert back or find the next guy. But there needs to be accountability and a desire to move forward, not look back.

Well preseason he was better... historically he's been more impactful... what else do you want? J. Jones hasn't had the opportunity to get on the field with the Bombers in regular season so your argument ultimately boils down to "well the coaches are infallible when building the roster"... and that's a HARD sell given the history that is there with that aspect. Or was Sam Hurl always there because he was the best option back in the day?

I don’t think there’s a lack of a plan. The plan just doesn’t make a ton of sense. We just completely re-configured our front office this offseason and added more bodies. What was the net effect? Our pro scouting highlighted guys who can’t crack our roster (J. Jones, Mitchell, etc) and our crop of recruits got us what … one new body? And the shine has worn off of him since he seems to be getting worse, not better? Great. What’s the draft plan? Okay, basically just draft guys to play special teams? Shay, Smith? Can’t give them D reps. Why would we? What’s the roster plan? OL - washed. DL - gassed. LB - not versatile enough to fit our DC’s preference. WR - thin. Okay so what do we do to adjust? What’s the coach’s plan? Doesn’t really seem to have one these days. Doesn’t affect much in-game. Our halftime adjustments seem invisible. The leash on underperformers is infinite. Won’t challenge anything. Won’t use the roster rules. And the overarching point everyone used to make - players would run through a wall for him? Do we see that drive out there anymore? I don’t.

No point in bringing in talent if they are not allowed to challenge and replace the existing players unless there is a catastrophic injury. That has to be frustrating for the scouting staff.

This. An O'Shea team used to have the opposition beaten down by the 4th quarter. Remember the audio of the 2019 Grey Cup? They don't play that way anymore, and it's not hard to understand why they don't, some literally can't.

dline has needed help since we lost Kongbo...Stove....Nevis...Sayles...even Hansen and we made it worse by low balling Jeffcoat into retirement....injury issues?...I call b.s on that as we continued to sign/play BA...Biggie...Grant (until we effed that up) Hallett...and others who were always walking wounded and missed chunks...Only reason why the other Hallett is gone is because he physically cant do it anymore We of recent have some more than capable guys....but they play second fiddle to Osh's fav's....Even the strange decision to not re-up Fox and Garbutt was flawed and short sited as both playing well in Ham and would definately be helping here....likely tho they wanted to try free agency and actually get real playtime elsewhere...others have left here for that reason...a couple I also know alomost did but got talked into staying by some vets here Guys who know they can play...wanna play....you can be the best team guy in the world but when you have to consistently take a back seat to an inferior coach's preference....you can only stomach it for so long

They didn't move on from Ford, he walked away. Biggie, I have no doubt, would still be here if he hadn't shredded his knee. He's still not healthy enough to play so that should have been a no brainer. I'll give you BA but let's not pretend they had some big wholesale change planned. Those 3 are also at positions where we have depth so we could roll with guys we already had - the D Line has needed help for a while but we haven't seen a whole lot of movement. It's also not just about moving on from older players, it's about how they are being used. Thomas has absolutely no business being a starter taking tons of reps but here we are. If he was being used sparingly as a backup, you'd see way less posts about him. As much as I love WJ, it's plain to see that he should not be on the field as much as he is.

But was that osh or did walters take that one out of coaches hands? Cause let's be honest, if biggie was under contract oshea would 100% be playing him.

Your best lineman is adams and he's getting so few snaps. Embarrassing.

Teams with better DL than ours are using our former players, while our "superior" guys get whupped. If we made a DL of former bombers on CFL ARs, it would be handily better than our own.

As a rotational Lber, his 2023 performance rushing the passer in Toronto would be 3rd best for us, in the past 4 seasons among all players. 1 behind JJ, and 4 behind WJs best year since 19. He's the most disruptive player we have on D, and the best range of any lber on our roster. Top 2 for tackling ability too. Tony jones is a lunch box guy, jonathon jones is one of the best lbers in the league. We can also pretend that we haven't started the last several years with brutally bad DBs who get replaced by younger guys who are instantly better. The Tyquann Glass, rock Cartrights etc. Or that Josh Johnson was better than anyone little on Wheatfall, who did Colin Kornelson beat out lmao. No one in this league would argue Kornelson has any business taking reps over Adams and Lawson. And yet he does. Anyone can watch Kola in iso and see he can't pass block or find guys to block when he gets downfield in the run game. All he can do is snap the ball well. He is the most limited player in the entire league. Look at the riders OL, they've surpassed us. Look at Randolph handily outplaying Lofton's level from last year. Look at Venterpool being maybe our best OL in his games at G. Would you like to argue that Corcoran is better than Cobb? Have you seen Ayers' snaps at DE? I love the guy, and think/thought he could have use as a situational pass rusher from a Jack position, but he's been brutal. Why don't you pick one of the often lauded bad players, Kola, Thomas, etc or one of the above-mentioned guys. Come up with some "evidence" other than an appeal to authority fallacy, and I'll do a breakdown and show you the guys who are below replacement level or that we have better on the roster.

And it's still relatively early in the season... what kind of condition will those guys be in down the stretch and into the playoffs?

Ford was going to his brother's team...and out priced himself any way...so out of our hands there Biggie...was hurt...and not gonna be ready....if not hurt....he was gonna be here...if Osh continues to roster Thomas..kolo..Scmeck....Wilson...Scmeck....you know damn well Biggie would have been here BA...is maybe the only one we chose to move on from...did we low ball him tho like we did Jeffcoat?...quite possible...who knows 100 percent that was taken out of his hands....he wont be playing next week either...or week after I bet...9 months out...for an aged player...at his position?...nahhhh....and if he does try that soon....gonna really tarnish the last memories fans will have of him

You need to atleast be able to create pressures and push/collapse the pocket with your front. That also ensures that if you send extra rushers, the pocket time will be very small. Defence these days are heavily reliant on disruption. We aren’t doing that nearly as much as we did last year. We’re running a lot of 4-2 and 4-1, 3-2 is pretty limited.

I'm going to build on @JuranBoldenRules points. Name a successful CFL or NFL team that didn't generate a lot of pressure and by extension sacks? We did in 19 and 21, Toronto did it in 22 and 24. Eagles just won a Super Bowl in part because of this.

Biggest mistake they've been making from 2022 on is Willie Jefferson. Great luxury piece to add to one of the greatest CFL D's of all-time if you have the cap space. It worked for 3 years amazingly when he played about 2/3 of snaps. But he's not a building block. And especially as he reaches his mid-30's. Jeffcoat was the building block and they've never replaced him. They misread who was dominant, but I mean the whole world does with Jefferson because he's out there and obvious. Not that Jeffcoat could still play, but the role they needed to replace in the scheme to be dominant. Instead, Willie has got paid at each time his ticket has come up as his play is less and less effective without that dominant core in the front 7 around him. I am not a fan of Younger's scheme in comparison to Richie Hall's. We hardly turn the ball over, and we rely on coverage which is foolish. Even when you watch our DL play there's no attempt to get pressure from out side. Vaughters will rush B gap, Jefferson will twist sometimes and end up B or A gap, but from the edge they are just reading the QB to disrupt passing lanes. Any DE we've dressed for the past 2 seasons. It's basically a coin flip every week if it's going to work, but you see how even 1 or 2 guys having a bad game in the secondary sinks this scheme. Pressure is how you build championship defense, and if you're going to have one without the other, consistent pressure is way more impactful. If you have good players in the back end you'll probably never be worse than .500 with this scheme. But it's not a scheme that's going to beat another team that is in rhythm and playing at a championship level. We make no attempt to be aggressive at the line of scrimmage and are mostly trying to disrupt QB downfield reads while that QB basically knows they won't be pressured. Our team stats look decent right now, but we played the worst quarterbacked team by a longshot (BC) twice and Tre Ford.

Brandon Alexander & Collaros was hurt as well. However, I get starting Collaros even with a bum ankle. Posters here going after the members they think complain too much & then they throw up shade making excuse after excuse actually keeping the merry go round going. The coaching decisions cost us those Grey Cups. The 2023 Grey Cup with all the injured players, especially with Biggie playing on one leg, Schoen barely able to run & was a non factor...etc, etc. Last year playing Collaros with a severed finger on his throwing hand. That's all coaching decisions.

Yep. Our wins have been heavily skewed by the fact that we had a ridiculous talent edge over the rest of the league. Look at how our DL dominated; we ran every alignment imaginable, with every single combination of players. Everything we did after we started, Zach worked. With every sub and roster change. That team is among the most overpowered in league history. The fact that much of the core is still competitive speaks volumes to that. Mos has done a lot of great things here; we could've won with almost any HC. Not any coach could've turned us into that squad, not any coach could've come back from last year's start. But a bunch of coaches would have more GC rings in his place here. Your claim is that absurd. We see outstanding rookies at every single position in the CFL now. Even QBs here n there. For real though, who did Kornelson out play and how? The backup QB is the most popular guy amongst the fans. The thing is, we have several below-replacement-level guys like Kola and Jake. Would you like to go do a head-to-head comparison of forced into action PR back-ups vs those guys in film? Can show real clearly that some guys we play are average PR or below guys. Funny thing is the same thing happened last year in PS too. On top of that, our brutal useage of biggie, feeding him to OL to prevent double teams, caused his precipitous downfall and injuries. We battered the poor guy into a career grave. We were not first in pressures last year, which aren't openly tracked or released on a reliable in-season basis. Classic distraction technique. Teams often track it themselves and quantify it. He tried to say at one point last year that Jake had the most pressure in the league. The gap is actually widening in terms of pressures as well, between us and the rest of the league. Teams like Sask, To, and a couple of others are running much more aggressive fronts, doing basically the opposite of what we did last year. The riders have had an absurd amount of pressure on opposing qbs this year. More real pressures than we had all last year. Very few.

So you've never seen oshea make a mistake in roster construction?

We can go back and long way and see roster management problems fro. Osh. Love the guy as a coach but he has flaws in this regard and has for a long time. The problem now is there's a lot of fading stars that get all kinds of rope when they really need to be spelled off more.

it is when the coach keeps the lesser talent...and that happens here...too much Or who nakes the roster in a Championship game littered with injured guys, and not roster the "they are all starter" guys?....the water boy??..No ...the HC....He signs off on all of it and is the man responsible....Hence the Title "Head Coach"

But it isn't the bottom 4 positions on the depth chart... it's the middle of the ******* defense... defensive tackle (and defensive line in general) and middle linebacker are pretty ******* important areas. And don't give me that we haven't lost a game because of roster management. We lost 3 grey cups in a row in large part to roster management. Collaros playing hurt in 2022, 3 receivers who couldn't run in 2023... there's issues with how this roster is constructed and to deny that is just dumb.

I don't think Thomas playing 8 more snaps is a direct result of us losing the last game. It's just such an obvious bad decision that it makes us lose faith that he will ever make a tough decision when needed. The weird roster management with Canadians and playing certain guys like Thmoas decreases our chance of winning. Why not put the best potential players on the field to give us the highest % chance of winning?

Who says we are bringing in talent that is better? Guys have to earn their way into the lineup. I'm not saying that is the case 100% of the time, but it certainly is the overwhelming majority of the time. Seen a lot of grousing that J.Jones , as one example, should be in the lineup vs T. Jones....what I haven't seen is a single shred of evidence to back up the claim that he would be better. Sometimes, guys are on the sidelines despite a guy ahead of them having weaknesses+ because they aren't as good. Name one guy that the scouts brought in that is better than the incumbent. Please provide proof of that.

couldnt have said it better....kinda hits nail on the head and now that the original core is aged...declining...some case not good enough...a couple never really were good enough, yet still play them like CFL Hall of Famers in their prime...well you get what you get Used to be you had an outlier random stink bombe of a game....seemed unprepared/unmotivated....but plenty of dominance games ....now you have random dominant game, which almost seems like the outlier game now....but more and more games of hot garbage, totally outcoached and looking unprepared....guys going through motions....and the coach with his ho hum attitude about it...reluctance to do anything diffeent or about it....and has that look on the sidelines that does not show any concern or anger about what he seeing...almost a confused befuddled....stunned look, and it's just status quo and look back at the past and assume it will show up again....and it won't more times than it will Add in the fact we dont even give guys a chance doesnt help...Would JJones be better?....can Shay and Smith take reps in rotation to develop....sure be nice to see...Would Griffin be the better SAM....That right there is a definate yes.....sitting down Jake for a game or 2 and use the imports strictly with Lawson in the middle....would we be better....more productive?....pretty sure yup....would that hekp WJ and Vaughters...especially with a legit guy to rotate in....only a fool would think no.....so who is our fool? and the biggest thing if these guys on our roster and PR are not god enough or have any ability or upside to get on the roster and make a difference...then why are they still here?

if anything...learn from past losses....and why....and adjust/change things.......and not repeat it....continually.....easy concept most coaches grasp.....most

That's every thread. "This team, and all who run it, absolutely sucks and here's why" ad nauseum (or is it Add Nausea?)

https://www.nhlpa.com/news/1-22901/nhl-nhlpa-ratify-four-year-collective-bargaining-agreement

I honestly didn't think Jake would be playing this much once Lawson was ready. Absolutely wild the snaps he's getting.

And jeffcoat missed a lot of time to injury so moving on wasn't necessarily wrong... but they definitely didn't put in a lot of effort trying to replace the DEs. Nor DTs. Trotting out Jake as if he's Doug brown ain't cutting anything. Jake was a depth guy at his peak and he's well past that now.

I knew this would be the first argument brought up... and there's some validity tonight, but the 1s have looked very similar in the regular season compared to preseason and we can pretty much nail the roster that'll start as soon as camp opens so that shows me that osh has it written in ink from day 1 and it won't change. Honestly I want to see one person provide a good solid justification to having Ayers, a linebacker, as the only DE depth on the roster when our starters are 34 and 32 years old.

It's very telling that Mike Oshea never actually retired from playing. He would not ever quit and he's not going to tell one of his guys to quit.

Osh didn't move on from those guys because he felt there were better players available. The injuries forced him to. If Biggie could play at 45 years of age & run a 6.5 forty & have a vertical jump of 9 inches then he'd start.

O'shea highlights on the CJOB sports hit this morning when asked about the D line... Don't look at sacks, look at the pressure. Last year we were 1st in a lot of those categories, that's what we are aiming for. Sacks don't tell the full story. Pretty much exactly what I would expect he would say. 7th in sacks, D line after 4 games looks like it's week 17 but hey let's go!!

But look at what happened in preseason game 2... the starters on D got outperformed badly by the 2s... not a coincidence in my mind. The defensive line is a problem and has been for a couple years. Would really like to know how people feel they really are putting the best people out there...

We had a really strong roster and won a lot of games as a result, and can still win... but they're getting older and games like last week will be more and more common.

that's the sad part...we kept the aged...declining...in a few instances washed up players...guys who have been part of 3 flops in a row....and let the young, upside guys walk away.....now make that make sense? resting on laurels

Osh makes change only due to season ending injury, or player defection....Name one player cut out right by Osh that has been here more than 2 yrs that was a starter....or even bumped to a back-up or PR role He wont make a change to use a better player....or a mid-season change let alone a mid-game switch....why who knows

It is the coach's fault if you are suffering at a position, like say DE, after cutting a bunch of guys who are now elsewhere in the league. Kinda like the situation we see right now. Cedric Willcotts is even back on the AR in Calgary.

So we sign Patrick Surtain, reigning NFL MODP. He isn't an upgrade over Bridges until he proves it, even if Bridges is proven to be below replacement level? If that were remotely true, free agency wouldn't be what it is, and defenders wouldn't get paid to go to other teams. That might be the earliest point you are able to recognize an on-field value differential, but that isn't a blanket that covers everyone's eyes. To that point, TC and PS would be completely worthless. That doesn't prove that he is willing to make the changes, it proves he is only willing to do it at the last possible minute after it's cost us repeatedly.

It isn't the same as the Argos or our D last year. Last year and the Argos used a 30 front, this year we are using a 40 base again. It isn't by scheme, that's why JY is blitzing at the highest rate we've seen in the entire mafia era. He's trying to get extra pressure a lot more often than we are playing drop 8, little on drop 9. Consistent player underachieving and especially in execution, is coaching. That is the level we are willing to accept at a leadership level. We didn't deploy a combination of a roster and a game plan that could win, despite being a heavy favorite especially in the last GC. That is coaching. We could've won with just a better roster. We likely would've won with better coaching as well. But if we managed the roster better, the game plan would've needed less improvements.

So big time players under achieved... where was the move to sit then down and see if the rest of the roster can over come it? You really think younger wants an old assed defensive line that struggles to get pressure? Are you really going to be that obtuse? Yes 3 man fronts are the norm... but you could out 3 better players there and have depth so that the old parts don't get gassed after 1 month of the season.

YEAH ITS not bottom 4....its right up the middle of defense starters.....zero WR depth and really and underwhelming group as it is....using guys out of position to play a spot (end) when we have 2 guys who showed really well in TC and pre-season....Give them their shot.....How do you think Holm got a spot...he was basically 2/3rds the way outta here...actually wasnt he cut?...Parker got hurt...who beat him out and low and behold Holm has been here ever since Nichols and Alford...2 pure rookies....One is a mainstay....one in is kights out and ended up in the NFL....Mind you those were due to necessity as we had no hold overs....but that panned out pretty well when given a shot Stove....came in as an unknown...late to camp....played unreal for us as a rookie...2nd yr guy.....give a guy a shot.....instead of the old guard who arent getting ut done...and have been part of 3 consecutive flops....dont get better if you aint trying...Osh aint trying hard enough we've won many games in spite of roster management tho....but those days are over as we not loaded with guys in their prime talent anymore....tho Osh thinks we are...and thats bad

his play with the Argo's and in TC is more than enough evidence... as well as his all around athleticism and ability to play the run....Blitz/get after the QB (7 sacks in his full season) and cover....again evidenced by his play in T.O also is a good indicator....no real holes in his game...3 yrs younger too so can be even better.....T.Jones is a hold over...a guy who Osh "likes" and has holes in his game...he isnt a true everydown guy, and if he was Edm woulda kept him but they dumped him for a younger more athletic guys...who had/has upside...and ultimately was the CFL rookie of the yr...coaches saw talent...gave him his shot....nouf said And we carry guys like KOLO...Schmeck...Korn...Thomas...lesser extent we feel we have to play Kramdi as a starter....keep bringing back Hallett...Gauthier.....ST only guys......if tht best we have and nobody on 1 game or 6 game or PR is better.....then why they even here....You cant earn playtime in practice in this era....just cant...so how do you profess they earn it?....they need to play....not run around on scout...or 8 man skelly....not gonna happen exactly....another poster gets it....T.Jones was cemented in as the defacto starter as soon as he was re-upped to a 2 yr deal....Same with Kolo...Same with Thomas...didnt matter if we brought in a Lawrence Taylor, Mike Webster and Jim Jeffcoat clone....they were not bumping anyone....

Absolutely, I am not sure the merry go round on roster discussion is even worth the time anymore because pretty much everyone who has an opinion on it is about as well informed on each side of the equation as humanly possible over the past 2 years and 10000 posts related to it. However, I doubt the discussion dies anytime soon because Jake Thomas is still a Bomber.

My 2 cents Yes, it does feel as if on this board we go down the roster usage hole over and over, and it seems to creep into every thread. Perhaps it is overdone/discussed, and I could see some getting put off or annoyed with it, and yes we have posters with two very opposite opinions of it (one-5 GC's we know what we are doing-two-we are not putting our best athletes on the field and optimizing our roster) To a degree both these opinions have legs to stand on and valid points, I think this is why it comes up over and over. It is also amplified as some of our top posters have strong opinions on this matter. In conclusion yes, this goes round and round, but let's all step back and look at the 10,000ft view and be thankful that we have not just one but two active Bomber forums and that we have enough people and passion to continue to have these discussions.

The Bombers sometimes will remind me of the place I work. This one guy has showed up 3 times in May, 4 Times in June and so far zero in July. Yet one day he'll come in and it will be like nothing has happened, as usual. Some managment groups only make changes when it is 100% necessary or the change is made for them. Otherwise they'll just ignore the problem.

Living in the past thread. The repeat stuff thread.

Maybe we should rename this to the "20-20 Hindsight thread" so everyone knows what it's really about.