Canadian Politics

[Atomic]

5 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So I totally understand that the Ontario Liberals were rotten to the core and needed to be booted out on their asses and that people don't trust the NDP, but Doug Ford? Seriously? 

This is what happens when the Left takes the approach of "We're correct, and we're going to do whatever we want, and you're going to let us... unless you're a racist that hates the environment.  You aren't... are you?"

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Libs had good run in Ontario but even if they all voted NDP it would not have mattered. The NDP might have had a better shot if stronger leader.

[Mark F]

canada provincial and federal needs proportional representation. badly.

BC is going to be the first to get it.

[Zontar]

55 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So I totally understand that the Ontario Liberals were rotten to the core and needed to be booted out on their asses and that people don't trust the NDP, but Doug Ford? Seriously? 

Two radical leftist tax and spend parties and Ford. Its him or throw away vote to fringe or dont vote at all.

[Zontar]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Isnt Trump proving this point?

Yes. When youve lost the battle of competing ideas hit the hysterics button. Same here as there.

[Goalie]

 

Why you say? Cuz the shorter guy is my Dad. 

[Jacquie]

On 2018-06-09 at 11:13 AM, Goalie said:

 

Why you say? Cuz the shorter guy is my Dad. 

My gosh! He must love his job. He could have retired with full pension years ago. Congrats to your dad.

[rebusrankin]

On 2018-06-08 at 12:07 PM, Mark F said:

canada provincial and federal needs proportional representation. badly.

BC is going to be the first to get it.

Actually we don't. The mess in BC which helped led to all of us buying a pipeline is the kind of issues you get when you have PR.

[Mark F]

36 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Actually we don't. The mess in BC which helped led to all of us buying a pipeline is the kind of issues you get when you have PR.

Not sure what you mean,but  B.C. doesn't have proportional representation. they are looking at it.

But they have a minority government. 

[rebusrankin]

15 minutes ago, Mark F said:

Not sure what you mean,but  B.C. doesn't have proportional representation. they are looking at it.

But they have a minority government. 

Proportional Representation leads to coalition governments. BC has an NDP government that exists due to support from 3 Green Party members. BC's premier is making many of his decisions in order to keep the support of 3 members so he can stay in power. Thus what is happening in BC is similar to proportional representation in that such systems often led to decisions being made to satisfy the demands of small fringe parties rather than the people as a whole.

[17to85]

Proportional representation only gives a louder voice to fringe elements. I much prefer our current system because it forces governments to appeal to moderates in order to win.

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Proportional representation only gives a louder voice to fringe elements. I much prefer our current system because it forces governments to appeal to moderates in order to win.

Wait... What? Did I miss something in the last few years? Since when did Doug ford become a moderate?

[17to85]

44 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Wait... What? Did I miss something in the last few years? Since when did Doug ford become a moderate?

It's not about the leader it's about the party. Liberals in Ontario passed everyone off so it's the PC's turn as the NDP are too fringe.

[The Unknown Poster]

Good listen. Too bad this guy isn’t PM

 

[The Unknown Poster]

Foreign former policy advisor. Strong words. Hard to disagree with.

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

3 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Good listen. Too bad this guy isn’t PM

 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

On 2018-06-08 at 11:31 AM, Atomic said:

This is what happens when the Right takes the approach of "We're correct, and we're going to do whatever we want, and you're going to let us... unless you're a libtard/terrorist/pinkocommie/ that hates the country/freedom/democracy.  You aren't... are you?"

I think it's par for political discourse.

[Atomic]

7 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

I think it's par for political discourse.

Indeed!  However the difference is that everyone knows they aren't a terrorist or communist so calling them that has no effect.  Calling someone homophobic or racist will have their backs against the wall instantly.  And that's what the Left does to their opponents, every day.  Sometimes deserved but sometimes not.  For example, calling everyone who opposes illegal immigration (refugees crossing our border en masse and "jumping the queue") a racist.  Or that opposing millions of dollars for trans-friendly bathrooms means you are transphobic.  It's a very combative way to lead and it turns off a lot of people.  That's part of why we're getting the Trumps and Doug Fords.

[The Unknown Poster]

Its because the Trump's of the world arent intellectually capable of a nuanced discussion about those things.  There is no middle ground between "let everyone in" and "racist".  Same with "government support of trans bathrooms" and "homophobe".

But in those particular cases, when the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms arose, the story was framed by the alt right who screamed about pedophiles and sickos.  Comparing a trans person with a pedo or a sicko is not a nuanced argument.  The common-sense argument about gender-neutral bathrooms is "who gives a ****".  But both sides co-opt the common sense middle ground for their own good.  The difference, however, is if you absolutely have to choose one side, most people will err on the side of "kind, understanding, protecting ones rights" rather then "watch out for the scary trans pedo trying to grab your kids' wiener at Walmart"

Trump's language about immigrants has been racist, plain and simple.  So to suggest it's the left who are jumping to "racist" isn't fair because it's been a reasonable description of the language.

As a conservative, where Trump is most vile to the cause is moving the standard of discussion so far right of "common sense", you basically abandon that to the left.  How many center-minded people or right of center will automatically gravitate towards the left when the Conservative movement abandons common sense to placate the worst of the White nationalist movement?

If the left makes an argument that makes me roll my eyes, whats the alternative?  Trump?  Thats not an alternative. 

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

The only Stop Harper movement should have been "Stop Harper from retiring". 

[Atomic]

49 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Its because the Trump's of the world arent intellectually capable of a nuanced discussion about those things.  There is no middle ground between "let everyone in" and "racist".  Same with "government support of trans bathrooms" and "homophobe".

But in those particular cases, when the idea of gender-neutral bathrooms arose, the story was framed by the alt right who screamed about pedophiles and sickos.  Comparing a trans person with a pedo or a sicko is not a nuanced argument.  The common-sense argument about gender-neutral bathrooms is "who gives a ****".  But both sides co-opt the common sense middle ground for their own good.  The difference, however, is if you absolutely have to choose one side, most people will err on the side of "kind, understanding, protecting ones rights" rather then "watch out for the scary trans pedo trying to grab your kids' wiener at Walmart"

Trump's language about immigrants has been racist, plain and simple.  So to suggest it's the left who are jumping to "racist" isn't fair because it's been a reasonable description of the language.

As a conservative, where Trump is most vile to the cause is moving the standard of discussion so far right of "common sense", you basically abandon that to the left.  How many center-minded people or right of center will automatically gravitate towards the left when the Conservative movement abandons common sense to placate the worst of the White nationalist movement?

If the left makes an argument that makes me roll my eyes, whats the alternative?  Trump?  Thats not an alternative. 

Judging by voting numbers, many people believe that a Trump or Doug Ford is a reasonable alternative.  It should be concerning to the left that their actions have driven voters to support these types of leaders.

I'm not sure why you brought up Trump in reference to illegal immigration in the Canadian Politics thread.  I am referring to refugees jumping the queue in large numbers in Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec (I specified this in the original post as well).  Many people are rightly concerned about this.  The root of some concern is undoubtedly racism, but to paint everyone who opposes it as racist is inappropriate and drives voters to support people like Doug Ford.

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Judging by voting numbers, many people believe that a Trump or Doug Ford is a reasonable alternative.  It should be concerning to the left that their actions have driven voters to support these types of leaders.

I'm not sure why you brought up Trump in reference to illegal immigration in the Canadian Politics thread.  I am referring to refugees jumping the queue in large numbers in Manitoba, Ontario, and Quebec (I specified this in the original post as well).  Many people are rightly concerned about this.  The root of some concern is undoubtedly racism, but to paint everyone who opposes it as racist is inappropriate and drives voters to support people like Doug Ford.

I was responding to your general point about Trump.  If you'd prefer to keep him to the US thread, feel free.

Also, based on voting results, a lot more people voted for Hilary than Trump.

[Atomic]

10 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I was responding to your general point about Trump.  If you'd prefer to keep him to the US thread, feel free.

Also, based on voting results, a lot more people voted for Hilary than Trump.

They did, but a huge number still voted for Trump.  And Doug Ford.  Whether it is an actual majority is irrelevant.  You say Trump and Ford are not real alternatives.  The numbers indicate that millions of people disagree.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

They did, but a huge number still voted for Trump.  And Doug Ford.  Whether it is an actual majority is irrelevant.  You say Trump and Ford are not real alternatives.  The numbers indicate that millions of people disagree.

I never mentioned Ford.

My point was pretty clear that the racist, divisive rhetoric of Trump was not a true alternative.  You might be right (and perhaps are an example) that for many it IS an alternative.  But that's a very sad commentary on the state of affairs in America.

[Atomic]

5 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I never mentioned Ford.

My point was pretty clear that the racist, divisive rhetoric of Trump was not a true alternative.  You might be right (and perhaps are an example) that for many it IS an alternative.  But that's a very sad commentary on the state of affairs in America.

Not just America, but Canada as well.  Scheer and Ford are very different from Harper.  A new brand of right-wing politics has emerged and Trump and Ford are the products, not the cause.  The gap between left and right is widening and everybody is to blame.  It's not good.