When do we fire Richie Hall?

[WBBFanWest]

16 hours ago, 17to85 said:

I am just saying we need to make the right decision here. It does no good to offer up Ritchie Hall as a sacrifice if the player recruitment is still lacking, and there is some evidence all over the team that suggests they are hit and miss at finding players and building a roster. 

I think at some point, you have to make a change at the top.  One can always argue that if there was just a bit more talent, or a bit more time to gel, or a bit more depth then things will really start to click.  While any of those things might be true, ultimately the issues on D stop at the desk of the coordinator.  I really don't see our defense, talent wise, as significantly worse off that the rest of the league, so the fact that we're at the bottom of the pack in a lot of significant markers says something, so I really think that our D should be better than it is.   Your right that it does not good sacrificing someone for no good reason, but in this case, we are not making that last big step that we need to make.  You can fiddle with the roster forever, or you can change the system.  Personally, I'd like to see what a new system can do and I really don't think that Hall is the one that needs to do it. 

[blue_gold_84]

12 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Both Loffler and Heath came in last season right? Started without them 2 years ago, they're part of the constant shake ups. They're good players don't get me wrong, but it took a while to settle on them back there as well. 

Loffler was drafted in 2016 and has played 2 full seasons at S. He's been a mainstay there for 2/3 of Hall's tenure. Heath joined the team midway through last season and has played the same position ever since, roughly 1/2 of Hall's tenure. Both players settled into their respective positions pretty quickly, especially Loffler.

The revolving door has been on the field side, IMO. But the secondary has been terrorized by big passing plays across the board, both this past season and in 2016. To me, that says scheme/system is more of an issue than rotating personnel.

[Mike]

The one thing I'm really curious about is why the team came out and said they were looking towards going after bodies in the secondary that would excel in more man coverages (it's the reason we let go of Frederick at the beginning of the year last year) and then they went out and found those physical bodies ... and went back to playing the majority of their snaps in zone coverages.

I get it ... man coverage is a bit tougher to pull off with the rules now and rookies might struggle ... but why did we target one style of player for another style of D?

[Booch]

I seem to recall to that being said...to look for guys who were good coverage guys...then went with a very passive keep it in front of you zone...

[Bigblue204]

Going to a man coverage D the majority of the time just doesn't make sense anymore. With the way the rules are you're setting yourself up for failure. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think planning your scheme around man coverage is the way CFL D can be played with any long term success. And when the receivers are open the way they are that speaks to breakdowns more than scheme not working. So what needs to change? I want Hall gone, but I don't want the D to get worse. If he stays there's a chance at them getting better I suppose. But that could be said with anyone really. I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.

[MOBomberFan]

I'd take Tim Burke back as DC. I don't think anyone can question his abilities as a defensive coordinator. We're a few years removed from the season of new lows... surely he's snapped out of his thousand yard stare and gotten his head back in the game by now. Would he want to try and resurrect his career here, though? Assuming he even wants to? I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't resurfaced yet.

[JCon]

3 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

I'd take Tim Burke back as DC. I don't think anyone can question his abilities as a defensive coordinator. We're a few years removed from the season of new lows... surely he's snapped out of his thousand yard stare and gotten his head back in the game by now. Would he want to try and resurrect his career here, though? Assuming he even wants to? I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't resurfaced yet.

We already have Lapo, why not Burke and Mack, too? Get the whole gang together again. The Blue Bomber Reclamation Project. Or, Swaggerville Redux.

[blue_gold_84]

14 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

I'd take Tim Burke back as DC. I don't think anyone can question his abilities as a defensive coordinator. We're a few years removed from the season of new lows... surely he's snapped out of his thousand yard stare and gotten his head back in the game by now. Would he want to try and resurrect his career here, though? Assuming he even wants to? I'm actually a little surprised he hasn't resurfaced yet.

I'm pretty sure he simply retired after resigning as DC of the Argonauts back in May of 2015.

[SPuDS]

16 minutes ago, JCon said:

We already have Lapo, why not Burke and Mack, too? Get the whole gang together again. The Blue Bomber Reclamation Project. Or, Swaggerville Redux.

we'd have to beg Reed to let Mack go.   Not sure if Walters would be willing to do that, lol.

[SPuDS]

Just now, blue_gold_84 said:

I'm pretty sure he simply retired after resigning as DC of the Argonauts back in May of 2015.

Ya I don't think hes not in the game because he wasn't wanted.. I think he was just done at that point... Now, a few years off can revitalize the drive but... it also is 3 years removed from active defenses and what offenses are doing these days.

[pigseye]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

I seem to recall to that being said...to look for guys who were good coverage guys...then went with a very passive keep it in front of you zone...

It's the CFL guys, it's near impossible to play man all the time unless you're sacking the qb on a regular basis. The field is just too wide to expect them to cover for any length of time as poor Roc Carmichael found out.

[Brandon]

The D declined as the season went on....  certain players regressed.   That is enough reason to can Hall.     It can't get any worse then his D allowing 400 - 500 yards per game...

[17to85]

3 hours ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Loffler was drafted in 2016 and has played 2 full seasons at S. He's been a mainstay there for 2/3 of Hall's tenure. Heath joined the team midway through last season and has played the same position ever since, roughly 1/2 of Hall's tenure. Both players settled into their respective positions pretty quickly, especially Loffler.

The revolving door has been on the field side, IMO. But the secondary has been terrorized by big passing plays across the board, both this past season and in 2016. To me, that says scheme/system is more of an issue than rotating personnel.

The point I am making is that we started the 2016 season with Macho Harris at safety and Loffler came in part way through the year and we started with Johnson at halfback and heath came in throughout the year, so even last season the secondary was being changed as the year went on. Then there were even further changes this year. They have been a revolving door. Maybe that changes, but somehow I bet not, they've been tinkering with the secondary since day 1 of Walters tenure. 

[WBBFanWest]

22 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The point I am making is that we started the 2016 season with Macho Harris at safety and Loffler came in part way through the year and we started with Johnson at halfback and heath came in throughout the year, so even last season the secondary was being changed as the year went on. Then there were even further changes this year. They have been a revolving door. Maybe that changes, but somehow I bet not, they've been tinkering with the secondary since day 1 of Walters tenure. 

With 1 year contracts being the norm, there will always be changes from year to year.  Every other team in the league is dealing with the same issue though, so you really can't use that as an excuse.

[17to85]

1 minute ago, WBBFanWest said:

With 1 year contracts being the norm, there will always be changes from year to year.  Every other team in the league is dealing with the same issue though, so you really can't use that as an excuse.

but what about always cutting veterans players to go with a rookie? That's only contract related in the sense that it's done as a cap saving technique, but is it worth it?

[WBBFanWest]

Just now, 17to85 said:

but what about always cutting veterans players to go with a rookie? That's only contract related in the sense that it's done as a cap saving technique, but is it worth it?

Welcome to the CFL salary system.  It's a part of the reality of things.  You will sometimes have to sacrifice a bit of talent in order to save money.  The trick seems to be:  whoever can best hide their weakest link wins. 

[pigseye]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

Welcome to the CFL salary system.  It's a part of the reality of things.  You will sometimes have to sacrifice a bit of talent in order to save money.  The trick seems to be:  whoever can best hide their weakest link wins. 

Considering we are starting two studs in Westerman and Loffler on D, there is no rational excuse for the defence to be as bad as it was.

[SPuDS]

23 minutes ago, pigseye said:

Considering we are starting two studs in Westerman and Loffler on D, there is no rational excuse for the defence to be as bad as it was.

a) 2 players doesn't make a defense..

b ) Both players didn't seem to play up to their usual standards last season..  Not that i'd wanna go away from either but still, were not on their best games.

[DR. CFL]

For man coverage to be safe and effective you require a front that can apply quick and constant pressure on a qb.  Without that pressure it is difficult for the DBs to maintain man coverage for a sustained period of time.

[17to85]

5 hours ago, blue_gold_84 said:

I'm pretty sure he simply retired after resigning as DC of the Argonauts back in May of 2015.

I thought the reason for him stepping away was his wifes health? 

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, SPuDS said:

a) 2 players doesn't make a defense..

b ) Both players didn't seem to play up to their usual standards last season..  Not that i'd wanna go away from either but still, were not on their best games.

There was talent on defense. So much so that we never should have been hemmoraging  thru the air & on the ground the way we did last season. Never should have started Hurl. Never should have substituted the way we did. This disaster of a defense is all on Hall & yet here we sit a full month after the season ended &  doing nothing while other teams make changes. Other teams have made coaching moves yet typically we still sit. The one big criticism I have of Walters & O'Shea is just how slowly they react to changes. If they can't figure it out by now then something is wrong.

Edited December 6, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[Floyd]

8 hours ago, Mike said:

The one thing I'm really curious about is why the team came out and said they were looking towards going after bodies in the secondary that would excel in more man coverages (it's the reason we let go of Frederick at the beginning of the year last year) and then they went out and found those physical bodies ... and went back to playing the majority of their snaps in zone coverages.

I get it ... man coverage is a bit tougher to pull off with the rules now and rookies might struggle ... but why did we target one style of player for another style of D?

Didn't they also talk about a big bodied traditional MLB as well?

[rebusrankin]

We started 3 CFL all stars in the secondary, a SAM LB who is among the league's best, a DE who is among the top CFL pass rushers and a rookie DE who had a fantastic first year and we still gave up a ton of yards and way too many explosion plays. How long do we keep absolving Hall?

Quote

 

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by rebusrankin

[BBRT]

14 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

We started 3 CFL all stars in the secondary, a SAM LB who is among the league's best, a DE who is among the top CFL pass rushers and a rookie DE who had a fantastic first year and we still gave up a ton of yards and way too many explosion plays. How long do we keep absolving Hall?

 

Can not help but agree - seems we have the talent on the playing field defensive wise - therefore can only assume it is either the system or the guy in charge of the system, or maybe both? Time for Mr. Hall to seek employment  elsewhere.

[blue_gold_84]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

I thought the reason for him stepping away was his wifes health? 

IIRC, he stepped away for personal reasons. I don't recall any specific details, though. To be clear, I'm only guessing he retired.