Bellefeuille OUT.....

[TBURGESS]

 

 

 

O'Shea should have let MB and Tracey go at the end of last year. He kept them on, in a large part, to have someone else to fire to keep his job this year. If he'd pulled the trigger when he should have, he wouldn't have lasted this year as there wouldn't be anyone but him to blame.

You can't be serious with this post. He kept 2 people on that he knew couldn't do the job, so that he could have them around to fire , to save his job?

The list of possible OC's is so Winnipeg. Whose failing career can we try to salvage? Which of our old players can we give a job to? Which Winnipeggers or those with a Winnipeg family can we give the job to? Who can we promote from within to a job they've never done before? A better way to go about this would be to ask which teams are running the best offenses and can we hire their OC away from them? It would not only make us better but our competition worse.

There is no list. At least one that were aware of, so you don't know if other team's coordinators are, or aren't, on this list/no list.

You seriously think that he'd still be around now if he'd fired Tracey and MB last year and still had a similar record? The other alternative is that he actually thought those two coordinators were good at their jobs, which brings his ability to tell good from bad into question. 

 

The list I'm talking about is the names that the fans and media have been putting together. PLAP, Buck, Khari, Howell, etc...  Better choices would be Brady, Condell, Cortez. Guys who have options who we'd have to pay more and who would want to move to get a shot at a HC job and/or to get out from the shadow of good HC's. I doubt O'Shea would want to pick one of them though because they would all be better choices for the HC job too.

If it's one thing we've learned about OS'hea, it's that he will put what's good for the organization ahead of what's good for him. He didn't hire Etch to have a throwaway coach, he basically had to hire him because there was no one left.

MB? yech. Retaining MB instead of firing both mediocre coordinators, the brain thrust acquiesced to the feeling to the safety of having someone you know as opposed to not looking for the next one.

And for continuity. He was wrong.

But to suggest he kept a bad coach as a buffer is ridiculous.

And just how do you know MOS doesn't have your list in mind?

 

When had O'Shea ever put the good of the organization ahead of his own opinion?  When he kept Kuale or MB or Tracy or Bryant or Hurl?  He hired Etch because he was a longtime friend same goes for Tracey. Keeping either of them after last year was a recipe for continued failure. 

 

Not only did O'Shea keep coaches around that he should have fired for the good of the organization, Walters set up a scouting group to take the heat for any failures to bring in better talent. It's management 101... Have someone to blame or you're going to take the heat yourself and probably get fired.

[iso_55]

Re: iso's post

Except for the fact that the staff has been expanded two fold over the previous regime. You're suggesting they were hired at half price?

Didn't say half price, you did but... think about it. How much would we have to pay Huff to come here? How much to snag guys like Milanovich? Austin? Jones? How much are we paying Walters & MOS? If you think it's similar to any of those guys, think again. We'd have to pay a premium to get any of those guys mentioned to come here if they were available. Maybe Jones came cheaper as he was never a HC before he went to Edmonton but he'll be in for a sizeable raise when contract talks start with the Eskimos if they haven't started already.

[B-F-F-C]

All these "dream" hires some of you want are under contract and they'd be lateral moves.  The Argos, Cats and Esks all hired coaches that were unproven in their current position.  Why is it OK for them and not us? 

 

If the WBB's do it.  It's being cheap. If other teams do it. It's being creative.   

[DR. CFL]

It was ok for them because their hires all had extensive coaching resumes not one that would fill the back of a postage stamp.

[Logan007]

 

Wow...that list is...a bunch of crap.

 

Dyce would be the only person I'd want here, but as a STC.  And Khari as a QB coach.  Big hell no to Howell and Pierce.  I hope they don't go that route as we don't need more rookie coaches right now taking command.  I'd rather have LaPo then Howell or Pierce, and that's not saying much.

 

I'm hoping there's more on that list, but they just aren't saying much yet because the other teams are still playing.

 

What a load of crap.  How do you uncover new coaches if you don't even give them a chance.  If they deserve it of course.  If everyone thought like you than we wouldn't have up an coming coaching talent like Jason Maas, Dave Dickenson or Marcus Brady.  The same can be said for current coaches like John Hufnagel and Kent Austin.  

 

If Buck Pierce has the right aptitude and smarts.  Why not?  Same goes for Marcus Howell.  A guy like Pierce has worked one on one with many different OC's over his college and pro career.  I'm sure he's picked something up over  those years. 

 

Let me fill some of that air in between your ears instead of acting like you knew what I was saying.  Did I say that rookie coaches shouldn't get a chance?  No.  We'd run out of coaches if we didn't.  What I was trying to say was the BOMBERS don't need a rookie coaches right now.  You ***** about not getting a cup, yet you want to take the chance and give Pierce a shot.  No thanks.  I don't have the faith in him yet like you might, and I doubt he could do it.  But I'm not saying that someday he won't be ready.  If you haven't noticed, we haven't had a great deal of success in the last 10 years with rookie coaches taking the big roles.

 

All of you whining about giving Buck a shot.  If they did that, and he failed, all of you who said we should give him a chance would be the same people crying for him to get fired and "why did we ever hire him".  Have none of you learned anything from all the rookie QB's we've thrown into the fray that have failed?  You can't rush things, if you do, they'll more then likely blow up on you.  Give him time and let him learn from someone other then a crappy OC.

 

And no to Howell as well.  I still stand on the fact that we need a non-rookie at OC right now.

[Captain Blue]

 

Re: iso's post

Except for the fact that the staff has been expanded two fold over the previous regime. You're suggesting they were hired at half price?

Didn't say half price, you did but... think about it. How much would we have to pay Huff to come here? How much to snag guys like Milanovich? Austin? Jones? How much are we paying Walters & MOS? If you think it's similar to any of those guys, think again. We'd have to pay a premium to get any of those guys mentioned to come here if they were available. Maybe Jones came cheaper as he was never a HC before he went to Edmonton but he'll be in for a sizeable raise when contract talks start with the Eskimos if they haven't started already.

 

What sort of point are you attempting to make? 

 

To put it bluntly, I don't think you have one. 

 

If ANYONE wanted to snag Milanovich, Hufnagel, or Austin right now, that team would have to pay top dollar. This isn't Bomber specific. 

 

There is a going rate for first time head coaches. I'm going to guess that they're all similarly compensated. You are creating a false argument because the Bombers choices weren't (a) hire O'Shea so you can get him cheaper or ( back up the truck for current Argonauts head coach Scott Milanovich.  

 

This is simply false.

[Mr Dee]

Not only did O'Shea keep coaches around that he should have fired for the good of the organization, Walters set up a scouting group to take the heat for any failures to bring in better talent. It's management 101... Have someone to blame or you're going to take the heat yourself and probably get fired.

 

 

So, now the conspiracy reaches out to including Walters and the scouting department?

 

Damn, these guys are smarter than I thought.

[iso_55]

All these "dream" hires some of you want are under contract and they'd be lateral moves.  The Argos, Cats and Esks all hired coaches that were unproven in their current position.  Why is it OK for them and not us? 

 

 

Well, surprised you asked as it should be obvious. Other teams hire managers & coaches that seem to know how to win. We don't. Our choices all have one thing in common. They lose.

[iso_55]

 

Not only did O'Shea keep coaches around that he should have fired for the good of the organization, Walters set up a scouting group to take the heat for any failures to bring in better talent. It's management 101... Have someone to blame or you're going to take the heat yourself and probably get fired.

 

 

So, now the conspiracy reaches out to including Walters and the scouting department?

 

Damn, these guys are smarter than I thought.

 

He's not saying it's a conspiracy theory. It's just guys that can't win in the system or culture they're in here. Danny Mac knows what it takes to win as he's won 2 GC championships as a player. However, something is holding this team back. Maybe McManus should be using his playing experience as a coach instead of scouting. Perhaps we're not using the resources we have properly? Just a thought. 

[Logan007]

 

 

Wow...that list is...a bunch of crap.

 

Dyce would be the only person I'd want here, but as a STC.  And Khari as a QB coach.  Big hell no to Howell and Pierce.  I hope they don't go that route as we don't need more rookie coaches right now taking command.  I'd rather have LaPo then Howell or Pierce, and that's not saying much.

 

I'm hoping there's more on that list, but they just aren't saying much yet because the other teams are still playing.

 

What a load of crap.  How do you uncover new coaches if you don't even give them a chance.  If they deserve it of course.  If everyone thought like you than we wouldn't have up an coming coaching talent like Jason Maas, Dave Dickenson or Marcus Brady.  The same can be said for current coaches like John Hufnagel and Kent Austin.  

 

If Buck Pierce has the right aptitude and smarts.  Why not?  Same goes for Marcus Howell.  A guy like Pierce has worked one on one with many different OC's over his college and pro career.  I'm sure he's picked something up over  those years.

Absolutely right.

The new guys that have been given chances, on both sides of the ball, (ex. Thorp, Maas, Brady, Condell) have shown well, either through an extension of their coaching staff, or completely on their own.

How will we ever see new ideas besides the old X's and O's, if we don't seek out new thinking?

Fresh offensive ideas, as yet not tried. The RedBlacks no huddle offence, as opposed to our stale no offence huddles.

A "keep them guessing on D offence", as opposed to our "we know what you're going to do playbook".

How about fresh and new as opposed to stale and re-cycled.

I remember a quote from a defensive player when they were done thrashing our offence. He basically said "we knew exactly what they were going to do". That's basically been our Offensive scheme...for years.

Unfortunately, O'Shea won't be able to go where no man has gone before, because he's got to hire that "name" and hopefully get it right this time.

 

Yes, but who were the guys who were teaching these guys beforehand.

Maas had Milanovich and Brady to learn from

Brady had Trestman and Milanovich

Thorpe has been coaching since 2003...not exactly a rookie.  But still had Chris Jones, Rick Campbell, Kavis Reed, etc... to learn from.

Condell has been coaching since '95 in CFL and College ball (again, not sure how he's a rookie to you)

 

Pierce has learned from....Marcel Bellefeuille.  Yeah...that's a great teacher right there.  I wouldn't mind him having a few more years under someone like Condell or Brady, so he knows what an actual offensive attack should look like.  Howell has had LaPo, Crowton and MB.  Again...not the best teachers, but at least he's been around for a while.  Either way I'd like both of them to have learned from someone better then MB.

[Mr Dee]

Not only did O'Shea keep coaches around that he should have fired for the good of the organization, Walters set up a scouting group to take the heat for any failures to bring in better talent. It's management 101... Have someone to blame or you're going to take the heat yourself and probably get fired.

 

So, now the conspiracy reaches out to including Walters and the scouting department?

 

Damn, these guys are smarter than I thought.

He's not saying it's a conspiracy theory. It's just guys that can't win in the system or culture they're in here. Danny Mac knows what it takes to win as he's won 2 GC championships as a player. However, something is holding this team back. Maybe McManus should be using his playing experience as a coach instead of scouting. Perhaps we're not using the resources we have properly? Just a thought.

Well, that's a better way to put it, but he is saying that Walters hired to fire, to cover his ass. In other words, setting up the scouting dept. to fail, so that he would be safe. And that's ridiculous.

You may fail, but you don't hire guys or set up guys to fail to take the heat.

[iso_55]

 

 

 

Not only did O'Shea keep coaches around that he should have fired for the good of the organization, Walters set up a scouting group to take the heat for any failures to bring in better talent. It's management 101... Have someone to blame or you're going to take the heat yourself and probably get fired.

 

So, now the conspiracy reaches out to including Walters and the scouting department?

 

Damn, these guys are smarter than I thought.

He's not saying it's a conspiracy theory. It's just guys that can't win in the system or culture they're in here. Danny Mac knows what it takes to win as he's won 2 GC championships as a player. However, something is holding this team back. Maybe McManus should be using his playing experience as a coach instead of scouting. Perhaps we're not using the resources we have properly? Just a thought.

Well, that's a better way to put it, but he is saying that Walters hired to fire, to cover his ass. In other words, setting up the scouting dept. to fail, so that he would be safe. And that's ridiculous.

You may fail, but you don't hire guys or set up guys to fail to take the heat.

 

Miller might  just do that if the Bombers hire this "name" OC & make his Asst HC. I mean, MOS is on his last leg  as a HC. A similar record next season or extended losing streak & he'll be fired. So, bring in this new guy & he'll be the new HC as well when the firing happens. That's setting up O'Shea for failure. To the Bombers, it's just a transition plan.

[TBURGESS]

I never suggested that Walters set up the scouting department to fail. I said he set up the scouting department in part to insulate himself in case they did fail. Mack didn't do that and took all the heat for the bad drafting and lack of depth. Walters has a scouting department to blame. It's not a conspiracy. It's management 101. 

 

I don't think that O'Shea kept MB and Tracey only so he had coordinators to fire this year, but it sure worked out well for him. If he had the foresight to fire them last year, he'd be a better HC but he'd probably be unemployed right now.

[Mr Dee]

 Yes, but who were the guys who were teaching these guys beforehand.

Maas had Milanovich and Brady to learn from

Brady had Trestman and Milanovich

Thorpe has been coaching since 2003...not exactly a rookie.  But still had Chris Jones, Rick Campbell, Kavis Reed, etc... to learn from.

Condell has been coaching since '95 in CFL and College ball (again, not sure how he's a rookie to you)

 

Pierce has learned from....Marcel Bellefeuille.  Yeah...that's a great teacher right there.  I wouldn't mind him having a few more years under someone like Condell or Brady, so he knows what an actual offensive attack should look like.  Howell has had LaPo, Crowton and MB.  Again...not the best teachers, but at least he's been around for a while.  Either way I'd like both of them to have learned from someone better then MB.

Yeah, I know these guys have histories, but nobody's implying we use virgins in those positions, unless there is some sort of sacrifice later, but there is nothing wrong in listening to a new way of doing something.

Your point is well taken, but let me say it would be a shame to NOT give somebody a chance, even though you're impressed with his presentation, just because he doesn't have the preferred experience.

For instance, there is somebody on our current staff who is smart, well liked, and considered by some to be going further in his coaching career. A person like T Edwards believes he's ready.

But how can MOS give him a chance without OC experience? That would apply to a couple of people on the staff.

And you ask, what can you learn from MB?

Easy. How not to run an offence.

[Mr Dee]

I never suggested that Walters set up the scouting department to fail. I said he set up the scouting department in part to insulate himself in case they did fail. Mack didn't do that and took all the heat for the bad drafting and lack of depth. Walters has a scouting department to blame. It's not a conspiracy. It's management 101. 

 

I don't think that O'Shea kept MB and Tracey only so he had coordinators to fire this year, but it sure worked out well for him. If he had the foresight to fire them last year, he'd be a better HC but he'd probably be unemployed right now.

Theres no such management 101 to cover what you're saying.

Nobody hires personnel with the idea that they will fail. You might have a backup plan, but if you're thinking the personnel you hire might fail, you're setting yourself up to fail yourself, and really,,why in hell would you do that?

That may be your management style, but it sure as hell isnt mine.

[Guest]

What about names like Mike Gibson or Doug Sams ?

[TBURGESS]

 

I never suggested that Walters set up the scouting department to fail. I said he set up the scouting department in part to insulate himself in case they did fail. Mack didn't do that and took all the heat for the bad drafting and lack of depth. Walters has a scouting department to blame. It's not a conspiracy. It's management 101. 

 

I don't think that O'Shea kept MB and Tracey only so he had coordinators to fire this year, but it sure worked out well for him. If he had the foresight to fire them last year, he'd be a better HC but he'd probably be unemployed right now.

Theres no such management 101 to cover what you're saying.

Nobody hires personnel with the idea that they will fail. You might have a backup plan, but if you're thinking the personnel you hire might fail, you're setting yourself up to fail yourself, and really,,why in hell would you do that?

That may be your management style, but it sure as hell isnt mine.

 

Everyone you hire might fail and you should know that going in. If you assume everyone you hire won't fail, then you are setting yourself up for failure, not the other way around. Insulating yourself from failure goes a long way towards being seen as the right guy for the job.

 

My management style is to define exactly what I expect, to expect a lot from my people and to give them personal responsibility for their own jobs. I don't expect either them or myself to be infallible.

[sweep the leg]

 

 

 

Okay. LOL! Look at our entire staff. All neophytes.

Good point. Wylie, Hall, & MB had all never seen a CFL game before being hired by the Bombers.

[Mark F]

I agree with all the previous posts.

[Captain Blue]

 

 

 

 

Okay. LOL! Look at our entire staff. All neophytes.

Good point. Wylie, Hall, & MB had all never seen a CFL game before being hired by the Bombers.

 

 

Rumour has it that they thought they were joining a team in the Continental Football League...

[do or die]

There is no uber conspiracy.

 

This team has seemed to lack a comprehensive plan, to strive for excellence and put petal to the metal.....instead tending to defer to the cheap, buddy, nice guy, in-house, familiar, fan friendly types......to coach things, backed by inferior scouting, which in the main, has fallen short in recruitment and player development.

 

We have had a number of endemic weaknesses on this club.....that seem to go on....for years and years...despite the revolving door...

 

While the fans spin round and round... in ever widening circles.    Just like our team.

[17to85]

 Better choices would be Brady, Condell, Cortez

Guys who have jobs that they're not likely to leave for a lateral move. Why not just wish for Austin or Hufnagel while we've got our heads in the clouds? 

[iso_55]

 

 

 

 

Okay. LOL! Look at our entire staff. All neophytes.

Good point. Wylie, Hall, & MB had all never seen a CFL game before being hired by the Bombers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay. LOL! Look at our entire staff. All neophytes.

Good point. Wylie, Hall, & MB had all never seen a CFL game before being hired by the Bombers.

 

But not all at once. These guys never had the experience. It is/was bound to fail.

[iso_55]

 

 Better choices would be Brady, Condell, Cortez

Guys who have jobs that they're not likely to leave for a lateral move. Why not just wish for Austin or Hufnagel while we've got our heads in the clouds? 

 

Exactly, like who is going to come here in the situation we're in & leave a good thing behind? 

[Goalie]

Regarding Pentons list of guys, I think He's just  guessing for the most part... It really doesn't take much to look around the league and see guys who could be the next OC.. I mean, we all could make a list of guys.. I think sometimes the media here tries to push their guesses as being facts, What Penton is doing is more than likely, just guessing.  I'm sure some names on that list are candidates, i'm sure some aren't. They aren't gonna say who the candidates are, that's fine and how it should be. I see that list as potential candidates along with several other potential candidates also.  

 

Cortez has looked average in BC, Condell doesn't look so good without Collaros, I don't think these guys are legit candidates, 1.. they have jobs already and 2. I just don't think they'd be willing to leave their current jobs for a lateral move, even if you thrown an assistant coach tag with it..

 

Not sure who the candidates are, no use in really over analyzing anything just yet... Guess, I'll just have to wait until they name the OC... I can already see the posts tho from some people... whatever tho really... Pretty sure the bombers are damned if they do and damned if they don't regardless. 

 

If i had to guess... I'd say in no particular order... Lapolice, Khari,Brady,Buck,Howell, Jarious Jackson, Maybe a guy like Damon Allen even, maybe Bob Dyce, not sure I like Dyce as OC tho... But i'm sure theres a few more candidates too. 

 

I'm gonna go ahead and just ignore the folks who constantly dwell on the negatives and have faith that the guy that will be our next OC, people will complain, oh people will complain, cuz that's what people do, but.. I think he will be the right guy for the job.