Rate Danny McManus's Scouting at this point

[17to85]

I recall some complaints about the lack of #1/#2 QB and finding import OTs. 

 

Yes Mack had guys that could play but his 21-39 record as a GM would point to there being some issues with that talent. 

 

 

 

**************

I'll separate this from the above as a personal opinion vs facts I know for sure:

Perhaps the difference for the Joe Mack era was that he threw more money at guys to come to Winnipeg as starters leaving less in the jar for depth players. 

And Walters record is 8-12 so far and there's still holes on the team. I get liking this group better but don't use the record to justify that. I'll stand by the claims that Mack left the team in better shape than Kelly did as well. Not to mention I already acknowledged that Mack was not a player in free agency and didn't have as much success drafting as he needed 2. When talking strictly about recruiting american players Mack blows Walters and co. out of the water whether people liked the guy or not. 

 

as to the second point, does depth matter if your starters aren't good enough? 

[Rids]

17to85 you're going to force me to do some research aren't you. Give me an hour. 

[Rids]

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

Edited July 9, 2015 by Rids

[Fatty Liver]

 

I recall some complaints about the lack of #1/#2 QB and finding import OTs. 

 

Yes Mack had guys that could play but his 21-39 record as a GM would point to there being some issues with that talent. 

 

 

 

**************

I'll separate this from the above as a personal opinion vs facts I know for sure:

Perhaps the difference for the Joe Mack era was that he threw more money at guys to come to Winnipeg as starters leaving less in the jar for depth players. 

And Walters record is 8-12 so far and there's still holes on the team. I get liking this group better but don't use the record to justify that. I'll stand by the claims that Mack left the team in better shape than Kelly did as well. Not to mention I already acknowledged that Mack was not a player in free agency and didn't have as much success drafting as he needed 2. When talking strictly about recruiting american players Mack blows Walters and co. out of the water whether people liked the guy or not. 

 

as to the second point, does depth matter if your starters aren't good enough? 

 

 

Speaking of Joe Mack, whatever happened to Ken Moll?  He must have played a big part in uncovering talent as he was the only US scout they had at the time.

[Rids]

Ken still lives in Kentucky. As far as I know he isn't affiliated with any CFL team at the moment. 

[mbrg]

QBs are incredibly tough to find and you could say that probably 5 teams are looking for a #2. Maybe all 9 given how many QB injuries have happened already.

 

In the NFL there's about ten teams still looking for a #1 QB.

[M.O.A.B.]

Bombers should re-hire Joe Mack as a scout.

 

Or Ken Moll.

[bearpants]

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I think Peach was signed by Walters.. after Mack was fired

[Rids]

That may be true. Looks like he was signed in late August and Mack was fired after 6 games. 

 

So Mack's down to 4 Americans.

[17to85]

That may be true. Looks like he was signed in late August and Mack was fired after 6 games. 

 

So Mack's down to 4 Americans.

But give that it's been 2 offseasons as well as that partial year for Walters and how much turnover there is regularly on a CFL roster is there really any meaning to how many americans are left from Macks time? I mean really 2 offseasons with a new regime in place you naturally expect a lot of turnover regardless of anything else. I just don't see these numbers being all that relevant in the context of this discussion. 

[Jpan85]

When you think of it now how many other guys around the league is there that Mack brought in one Sears?

[Atomic]

When you think of it now how many other guys around the league is there that Mack brought in one Sears?

 

Johnny Sears

Chad Simpson

Alex Hall

TJ Harris (haha)

Jason Vega

Moton Hopkins

 

That's all I can come up with.

[Mark F]

who brought in adarius bowman, and odell willis?

 

also, Phillip Hunt. chris matthews.

 

did joe bring in any of those people?

 

why is your name now heel atomic?

[M.O.A.B.]

who brought in adarius bowman, and odell willis?

 

also, Phillip Hunt. chris matthews.

 

did joe bring in any of those people?

 

why is your name now heel atomic?

 

Bowman, Willis and Hunt are John Murphy's (I believe)

Matthews is Joe Mack's.

[Atomic]

who brought in adarius bowman, and odell willis?

 

also, Phillip Hunt. chris matthews.

 

did joe bring in any of those people?

 

why is your name now heel atomic?

 

Bowman came in with the Riders, not sure who was in charge at the time.  Mike Kelly/John Murphy brought him to Winnipeg.  Willis started out in Calgary, brought to Winnipeg by Kelly/Murphy.

 

Matthews was a Mack find but he isn't in the league right now which I believe was the question.

 

I don't know why my name changed, the mods must have done it.

[JuranBoldenRules]

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

[17to85]

 

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

 

I have the same problems with it. Too much turnover on all teams to really focus on the raw numbers, especially give we're 2 years removed from Mack being in charge. Not even taking into account that players that Walters brought in like Peach and Darvin Adams and Stanley Bryant and Chris Randle, and Drew Willy and maybe there's more I'm not thinking of all came from other teams initially anyway and shouldn't be in a discussion about a GMs ability to find guys down south to start with. 

[Fatty Liver]

 

 

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

 

I have the same problems with it. Too much turnover on all teams to really focus on the raw numbers, especially give we're 2 years removed from Mack being in charge. Not even taking into account that players that Walters brought in like Peach and Darvin Adams and Stanley Bryant and Chris Randle, and Drew Willy and maybe there's more I'm not thinking of all came from other teams initially anyway and shouldn't be in a discussion about a GMs ability to find guys down south to start with. 

 

I thought we were discussing  player scouting?  Walters or his scouts didn't discover any of the players that you listed.

[17to85]

 

 

 

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

 

I have the same problems with it. Too much turnover on all teams to really focus on the raw numbers, especially give we're 2 years removed from Mack being in charge. Not even taking into account that players that Walters brought in like Peach and Darvin Adams and Stanley Bryant and Chris Randle, and Drew Willy and maybe there's more I'm not thinking of all came from other teams initially anyway and shouldn't be in a discussion about a GMs ability to find guys down south to start with. 

 

I thought we were discussing  player scouting?  Walters or his scouts didn't discover any of the players that you listed.

 

So you just stopped reading or what?

[Fatty Liver]

 

 

 

 

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

 

I have the same problems with it. Too much turnover on all teams to really focus on the raw numbers, especially give we're 2 years removed from Mack being in charge. Not even taking into account that players that Walters brought in like Peach and Darvin Adams and Stanley Bryant and Chris Randle, and Drew Willy and maybe there's more I'm not thinking of all came from other teams initially anyway and shouldn't be in a discussion about a GMs ability to find guys down south to start with. 

 

I thought we were discussing  player scouting?  Walters or his scouts didn't discover any of the players that you listed.

 

So you just stopped reading or what?

 

 

Yah, probably.

[The Unknown Poster]

Maybe we need to bring joe Mack back

[Rids]

 

 

Ok who needs an hour when you're on a lake in Idaho. Here's my findings:

 

Based on the 46 Man roster used vs Hamilton and strictly looking at the Americans. 

 

24 International players on the roster. 5 joined the team in 2013 or earlier (Denmark, Turner, Washington, Anderson, Peach)

 

16 are starters. 5 would've been signed by Joe Mack; 11 signed or traded for by Walters.

 

Joe Mack's 5 players breakdown like this:

5 starters, 4 as new to the CFL free agents, 1 as a signing away from another team

 

Kyle Walters' 19 players breakdown like this:

11 starters, 8 depth players

6 starters as new to CFL free agents, 4 starters were signed away from another CFL team, 1 starter traded for

Depth players - 5 as new to CFL free agents, 2 traded for, 2 signed from other CFL teams

 

 

 

Potentially 2 of Walters signings that are on the 6 game IR will replace 2 of Mack's starters. 

 

You can go back through my posts to see that I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Walters and defining "impact" is always in the eye of the beholder so I'll leave that up to you guys. 

 

(edited because I only counted one "Adams" instead of two)

 

I don't get the point of this post.  What does the composition of the current imports on the roster have to do with evaluating Mack's regime vs Walters' regime ability to find impactful imports?  Given how quickly imports cycle through the league it's meaningless.

 

I have the same problems with it. Too much turnover on all teams to really focus on the raw numbers, especially give we're 2 years removed from Mack being in charge. Not even taking into account that players that Walters brought in like Peach and Darvin Adams and Stanley Bryant and Chris Randle, and Drew Willy and maybe there's more I'm not thinking of all came from other teams initially anyway and shouldn't be in a discussion about a GMs ability to find guys down south to start with. 

 

 

If you drop all references to raw numbers then it's back to personal opinion and this discussion becomes a separation into two groups that preferred one individual over another for a multitude of reasons that go way beyond what is actually on the field. 

 

Here's the point. The initial question was with regards to Walters not bringing in the same level of talent as Mack. The caveat was that Mack's drafting was an achilles heel. So that makes the quality of the American players a good way to compare GM A vs GM B. Americans make up 50% of the roster but account for 67% of the starters. 

 

I'd say that Walters has done well with the additions of Paris Cotton and Cam Marshall in the backfield. Probably the best since the 2012 season. He's repaired the OL, the jury is out on the long term success there but 4 of 5 starters are Walters guys. 

 

Really it's a multi-faceted discussion that goes into several categories. Mack had a losing record as a GM so if he was bringing in better talent than what Walters currently is then you should be looking for paper bags right now and conceding the next pair of Grey Cups until the next GM comes to town. 

 

To the comment about just regular CFL roster turnover it does say something that there are only 2 American players still on the roster from 2011. Even using the averages and only replacing Mack guys with Walters guys (and not replacing any Walters guys once they get to town) there should be more brought in still on the roster than there currently is. Year 3 using the average CFL turnover of 33% per year should still leave 11 guys with ties to Joe Mack on the roster instead of the 4 identified above. 

 

 

 

Let me toss the softball back and ask why some of you believe that Walters and staff isn't doing enough? 

[B-F-F-C]

My first example is that we have 3 lb's that can't play the position.

[kelownabomberfan]

I thought at first it was "Heil Atomic".

[17to85]

Walters has done well with dbs and rbs but the LB and DL he's been terrible. Receivers he hasn't found a starter and has relied on CFL free agents. Guy needs to step up his game. Mack found dbs and rbs too, but he also found DL and LB and receivers.