Seeing if we can get a thread going without the error (sorry @WinnipegGordo )

Go Bombers!

47 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

This game was a combination of poor playcalling (15%), poor discipline (35%) and overall lack of talent (50%).

I am at a loss to rationalize how bad our OL is and how limited our QBs are in ability.

Guys played hard, not seeing any lack of effort but woof this team needs a rebuild.

Condell just isn't the answer at OC, but we also need some new players.

15%? There was no counter when the Argos adjusted to those come back routes

Take away the missed FG / TD return, and Brown basically Quarterbacked them to a 24 - 0 lead, you don't do that with limited ability, esp. with inconsistent OL play.

24 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

They would have had a 24 - 0 lead at one point.

My point is the Argos play-calling would have been even more aggressive for the remainder of the game if that field goal attempt was not returned for a TD. Given Kelly's abilities they might have been able to score several more points than they did if the score was more one-sided early on.

4 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Replace Brown with Collaros and you got the story of the year. We got the same problems with both qbs should tell you something about the offense they've built here

Hogan & Condell back to back tells you just how bad Osh is at picking offensive coordinators. Hogan gets to keep his old job despite failing miserably last year. Jake Thomas gets a coaching job at defesive line when OSH is told he can't play him. The HC & GM get new contracts despite glaring mistakes doing their jobs. The Old Boyz Club is going strong here. Things need to change but we know it won't.

37 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Hogan & Condell back to back tells you just how bad Osh is at picking offensive coordinators. Hogan gets to keep his old job despite failing miserably last year. Jake Thomas gets a coaching job at defesive line when OSH is told he can't play him. The HC & GM get new contracts despite glaring mistakes doing their jobs. The Old Boyz Club is going strong here. Things need to change but we know it won't.

Time to clean house... or at least bring back LaPo for a 5th time.

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

Time to clean house... or at least bring back LaPo for a 5th time.

Lapo would at least know wtf to do with Brady

3 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Hey how did Collaros get hurt again? Oh yeah chasing the guy who intercepted him on a brain dead throw....

Maybe when we pull back and realize the offense has the same problems no matter who is at QB we can address the real issue.

I'm not going to defend Collaros - I'm more of the opinion that we have 2 bad quarterbacks. Along with a bad OC.

Totally agree we need to make some changes in coaching, drafting and players. The whole issue with making second half adjustments is a huge issue IMO. I think TO started to make their 2nd half adjustments before the end of 2. I'm not sure but is Hogan the O'line coach? Fire him. Very disappointed

7 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Plus I don’t think Dru Brown has hit his ceiling. I think if we show some patience we will reep the benefits.

His problem have always been injuries. He has to stay healthy. Hoping Elgersma takes some big strides development wise next year.

2 hours ago, blueandgoldguy said:

My point is the Argos play-calling would have been even more aggressive for the remainder of the game if that field goal attempt was not returned for a TD. Given Kelly's abilities they might have been able to score several more points than they did if the score was more one-sided early on.

Sure. Keeping in mind the Bombers had already picked him off twice. He's more prone to picks when he plays more agressive

4 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

His problem have always been injuries. He has to stay healthy. Hoping Elgersma takes some big strides development wise next year.

Having both ready to roll would be ideal.

1 hour ago, Atomic said:

I'm not going to defend Collaros - I'm more of the opinion that we have 2 bad quarterbacks. Along with a bad OC.

Man, posters here sure complained how we let the only qb we developed since Dieter Brock walk away in free agency. The moaning & complaining that went on here when he left for Ottawa in free agency was very loud. Then, to give Walters some credit (which I very seldom do anymore) he trades for Brwon & brings him back. Now, suddenly Brown's a shitty qb??? Give me a break.

2 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Having both ready to roll would be ideal.

Elgersma is a tank. We can only hope he develops but with no qb coach & Condell the OC, it's a huge question mark. If I was Osh, since he gives his player buddies like Miller & Thomas coaching jobs, offer the QB Coach position to Collaros.

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Time to clean house... or at least bring back LaPo for a 5th time.

Khari would be a start but it'll never happen with this regime. I'd break the bank to get Calvillo in here as Head Coach. What a pipeline for Als free agents that would be. However, this is just fantasy on my part & will never happen. Thanks to Wade Miller, we're stuck with an absolute slug of a head coach until the end of 2028. And we know that Osh is slow to change & adapt as the mollusks he is.

Edited September 26Sep 26 by SpeedFlex27

We've been at the same position for the past three years. Players have changed, but the problems are consistent and persistent. That leaves the coaching and management. To beat a dead horse, I could not believe that both the coaches and the general manager were renewed for another three years. The fans keep coming out large numbers, but that will not continue if/when the team continues to spiral downward and players start to give up. Finishing the season with the team foundering will mean season ticket holders will be a lot harder to re-sign. All bad news, particularly with the Stamps showing signs of life.

1 minute ago, Tracker said:

We've been at the same position for the past three years. Players have changed, but the problems are consistent and persistent. That leaves the coaching and management. To beat a dead horse, I could not believe that both the coaches and the general manager were renewed for another three years. The fans keep coming out large numbers, but that will not continue if/when the team continues to spiral downward and players start to give up. Finishing the season with the team foundering will mean season ticket holders will be a lot harder to re-sign. All bad news, particularly with the Stamps showing signs of life.

This organization can be described in three words. Fat and lazy. They just think the good times will just keep on rolling along. Nothing will change in the off season. Slight chance that Osh will roll out a new OC but that's about it. The team is rapidly losing touch with reality.

5 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

This organization can be described in three words. Fat and lazy. They just think the good times will just keep on rolling along. Nothing will change in the off season. Slight chance that Osh will roll out a new OC but that's about it. The team is rapidly losing touch with reality.

I assume you mean that the OC change will happen, if it does, for next season. Sure as spit nothing is going to change this season.

I'm not sure it's the OC, Collaros and Brown look like they are changing the play at the LOS a lot.

27 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm not sure it's the OC, Collaros and Brown look like they are changing the play at the LOS a lot.

they aren’t changing the play, they are checking it which is with in the system. it’s not like 25 years ago when qbs called the plays and changing things at the line was contested. Offences today are designed for checks based on pre snap reads. This happens off pre determined reads. The majority of the time this is based on db depth or the sams alignment between the far slot and tackle box.

With TCs offence, this is often going to be moving away from the slot screen because the D is too tight to make it work.

Dru came out getting the ball out of his hand quickly, and was hitting great windows. The running game was cruising too.

Tor adjusted, and we had no counter to the pressure. which we’ve seen many times this year. We didn’t work off the run worth a damn and got all away from the run again for long stretches. The Os struggles are 100% on condell. Brown can beat the rush with his release if you give him the plays to do it. he can roll and throw on the run. he isn’t a scrambler, but he’s very good on slide pro, moved pockets, rolls and boots. None of which we used.

We also only threw or brady once, which was on a broken play. That’s the best pressure release we have. We didn’t run 1 jet/sweep or even the motion. This prevents the D from getting out of their lanes.

OCs have a ton of ways to deal with pressure, and manufacture drives. We tried none of them.

After tc, it falls on the ol, and the roster useage. Dante provides nothing and is a hindrance as a big. he can only block on smaller guys and teams know what’s coming when he’s on the field. At least if we put a 7th ol on we could deal with pressure and go heavy.

23 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

they aren’t changing the play, they are checking it which is with in the system. it’s not like 25 years ago when qbs called the plays and changing things at the line was contested. Offences today are designed for checks based on pre snap reads. This happens off pre determined reads. The majority of the time this is based on db depth or the sams alignment between the far slot and tackle box.

They are changing the OC's play call at the LOS within the system. If you are suggesting that the play and the checkdown for the play are both bad, that's a flawed design from the start. If you are suggesting that the initial call and its checkdown are the wrong call in the first place, that's bad playcalling. If you are suggesting that Collars isn't allowed to change the play at the LOS, that's sad. He's one of the vet QBs.

So where do I begin. Another game lost because the other team was able to make adjustments and we were. This game truly should not have been close. This team is coached so poorly right now. How many times have we seen something on offense work perfectly for about a quarter or even a half, and when the other team makes adjustments we were literally having games where we’re getting 20-30 yards a quarter after going for 200 the last. The inconsistency is just too much. That 10 point swing was a heart breaker, and the real game changer but how about using a challenge on an incomplete chance even though there is no possible way they’re going to over turn it. Not using that used time out cost us when every second counted late in a close game. Not to mention trying to kick 55 yards into the wind on third and three when Brady and Brown were hot. We just saw Grant return it to the house. Not only there a chance you miss but you have one of the goats back there that just took one to the house. Let’s face it he’s just not hungry anymore. Love him or hate him even the biggest haters would admit that he had his team disciplined and prepared. Now it’s neither. Heck the first couple of years when we weren’t good enough we would run trick teams on special teams and on offense just to try and win a game. I think we’ve had about one fake punt in the last several years and it didn’t work.. but there’s been so many times in the last three years when this team needed a spark and needed some points. I had to give up my season tickets this year because of my life schedule but it’s hard being a fan and seeing the slow sinking ship. I fear without change we’re just going to be treading water from this point out because let’s face it. The champions on this team are either old or retired. This team is no longer special and it’s been an amazing ride, but cross over games and 5th place is going to be our future if we don’t let go of the past.

Edited September 27Sep 27 by Arnold_Palmer

32 minutes ago, Arnold_Palmer said:

So where do I begin. Another game lost because the other team was able to make adjustments and we were. This game truly should not have been close. This team is coached so poorly right now. How many times have we seen something on offense work perfectly for about a quarter or even a half, and when the other team makes adjustments we were literally having games where we’re getting 20-30 yards a quarter after going for 200 the last. The inconsistency is just too much. That 10 point swing was a heart breaker, and the real game changer but how about using a challenge on an incomplete chance even though there is no possible way they’re going to over turn it. Not using that used time out cost us when every second counted late in a close game. Not to mention trying to kick 55 yards into the wind on third and three when Brady and Brown were hot. We just saw Grant return it to the house. Not only there a chance you miss but you have one of the goats back there that just took one to the house. Let’s face it he’s just not hungry anymore. Love him or hate him even the biggest haters would admit that he had his team disciplined and prepared. Now it’s neither. Heck the first couple of years when we weren’t good enough we would run trick teams on special teams and on offense just to try and win a game. I think we’ve had about one fake punt in the last several years and it didn’t work.. but there’s been so many times in the last three years when this team needed a spark and needed some points. I had to give up my season tickets this year because of my life schedule but it’s hard being a fan and seeing the slow sinking ship. I fear without change we’re just going to be treading water from this point out because let’s face it. The champions on this team are either old or retired. This team is no longer special and it’s been an amazing ride, but cross over games and 5th place is going to be our future if we don’t let go of the past.

We'll never win another Grey Cup with Osh or Walters. We won't even be close. Pretty soon it'll be a decade between wins. We should have cleaned house when we had the chance.

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

They are changing the OC's play call at the LOS within the system. If you are suggesting that the play and the checkdown for the play are both bad, that's a flawed design from the start. If you are suggesting that the initial call and its checkdown are the wrong call in the first place, that's bad playcalling. If you are suggesting that Collars isn't allowed to change the play at the LOS, that's sad. He's one of the vet QBs.

They aren’t wholesale changing the play; they are checking down. You do not have time in the CFL to change the play call at the line, especially with how slow our offence is getting set up out of the huddle.(That’s across all the QBs to play; it’s not one QB being slow)

It is a systematic failure of the install. We don’t have viable counters to basic defensive concepts, the same ones multiple teams have used to run us over this year.

The only way to enable a QB to fully change the call on the fly is to play hurry-up and call the offence from the line in the first place. And we don’t run hurry-up.

We should, though: Zach is by far the best person in our franchise right now to call plays, and brown is No. 2. Though, with a bad install each week, you handicap even what they can call.

If we don’t deal with TC quickly, we won’t be a playoff team. We can compensate for the OL with the tools we have. We can’t cover for TC with any set of players.

Edited September 30Sep 30 by wbbfan

For instance, the play call is a 3x2 single back pistol formation and a PA with a vertical flood passing concept to the 3 wide side and a post corner to the other side.

QB sees the 2 WRs on the boundary side have off coverage and too much cushion. So he goes to check 1, a behind-the-line screen package to the trips side (field).

Or if he sees a gap is uncovered, he goes to check 2 for the inside zone run.

Check 3 would be a concept to the trips field side; say the QB reads overload, this check would remove the PA and give him a timing route on a 1-step drop.

You only have a few checks installed; some will vary per formation, but they won’t be too diverse. Something simple and fast that the QB is comfortable with in a tough spot.

You don’t have a QB go to the line with that play, then call a whole other play to swap to.

The modern style of playbook construction is very modular. A D generally calls coverage, front alignment, and pressure package. An offence calls a passing concept to each side, formation/ protection, and, on some plays, motion. Then you adjust a piece as needed.

That’s part of why we’ve run 1 run game scheme for ages. We used to be the best at running any play from any formation with a diverse number of formations. Now we basically run 3x2, empty backfield, or occasionally a heavy set.

Edited September 30Sep 30 by wbbfan

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

For instance, play call is a 3x2 single back pistol formation and a PA with vertical flood passing concept to the 3 wide side and a post corner to the other side.

Qb sees the 2 wrs on the boundary side have off coverage and too much cushion. so he goes to check 1, a behind the line screen pack to the boundary.

Or if he sees a gap is un covered, he goes to check 2, for the inside zone run.

check 3 would be a concept to the trips field side, say qb reads over load, this check would remove the pa, and give him a timing route on a 1 step drop.

You only have a few checks installed, some will vary per formation, but they won’t be too diverse. Some thing simple and fast that the qb is comfortable with in a tough spot.

You don’t have a qb go to the line with that play, then call a whole other play to swap to.

The modern style of playbook construction is very modular. A D generally calls coverage, front alignment, and pressure package. An offence calls a passing concept to each side, formation/ protection and on some plays motion. Then you adjust a piece as needed.

That’s part of why we’ve run 1 run game scheme for ages. We used to be the best at running any play from any formation with a diverse number of formations. Now we basically run 3x2, empty back field, or occasionally heavy set.

Great summation the past 2 or 3 messages on this thread. Much respect.

20 hours ago, Mark H. said:

15%? There was no counter when the Argos adjusted to those come back routes

Take away the missed FG / TD return, and Brown basically Quarterbacked them to a 24 - 0 lead, you don't do that with limited ability, esp. with inconsistent OL play.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but those comeback routes worked well and the answer to them taking them away was also there. When Ds close on them the deep shot opens up. Our players unfortunately cannot provide the pass pro necessary, our QB is not good with attacking deep, and our receivers struggle to get behind coverage. This is a natural progression in any offence that we simply cant pull off. We are hamstrung by our personnel currently.

There were some other options we may have tried so I give it 15%. However, it is increasingly apparent that Dinwiddie was correct in his assessment that DB has a limited skill set. What is also abundantly apparent is that our OL was far worse in the 2nd half in pass pro. The book is out on us that if you send pressure looks, and run blitz and keep the secondary closer to the LOS that we will not either get the chance for big plays, or dont have the QB to make it happen.

Edited September 27Sep 27 by GCn20

7 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but those comeback routes worked well and the answer to them taking them away was also there. When Ds close on them the deep shot opens up. Our players unfortunately cannot provide the pass pro necessary, our QB is not good with attacking deep, and our receivers struggle to get behind coverage. This is a natural progression in any offence that we simply cant pull off.

Yup every D in the league knows the bombers can’t go over the top. Once they adjust to that in a game, the O if done.

Hard to have offensive success if the only way to move the ball is long sustained drives with no threat of a game breaker