With fingers crossed

 

 

26 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Looking at the Riders numbers there. 43% from gate receipts, and how much more from game day revenue (beer, food and merchandise sales, and parking revenue among other things)? And I recall the Bomber books saying 32% from ticket sales and another 24% from game day related revenue in 2019. 
 

And then there is this. 
 

I have to think no fans, no season. 

How do other leagues do it? The WHL, The Canadian Soccer League. Little dinky leagues where they don't have any money either. They better figure it out.

Football is different because there's way more players and way more staff. The expenses are way higher. The only comparison is NFL and they've obviously got exponentially more money. 

On 2021-02-26 at 10:37 PM, Noeller said:

Football is different because there's way more players and way more staff. The expenses are way higher. The only comparison is NFL and they've obviously got exponentially more money. 

WHL players make zero. CPL has a salary cap of 750k. Much easier to come up with enuff scratch through non attendance revenue streams to pay those bills than 5.2 - 5.8 million in SMS like the CFL.

something to keep an eye on: The Edmonton Oilers have sent a 50 page document to Alberta Health Services, outlining their request to have ~15% fan attendance toward the end of the regular season, and if it goes well, to have that increased for playoffs. Would act as a sort of Canary In The Coal Mine for the CFL.....Again, something to keep an eye on.....

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

something to keep an eye on: The Edmonton Oilers have sent a 50 page document to Alberta Health Services, outlining their request to have ~15% fan attendance toward the end of the regular season, and if it goes well, to have that increased for playoffs. Would act as a sort of Canary In The Coal Mine for the CFL.....Again, something to keep an eye on.....

They play any more games like they did against the leafs they'd be lucky to get 15%

35 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

They play any more games like they did against the leafs they'd be lucky to get 15%

I think that the CFL ought to be able to present a credible argument to the g]federal and provincial governments for a one million dollar subsidy per team. The country needs to regain a sense of normalcy as a matter of societal mental health and CFL games would be a big sign that we are recovering. Nine million dollars is really a pittance in government budgets.

Edited March 3, 20214 yr by Tracker

3 hours ago, Tracker said:

I think that the CFL ought to be able to present a credible argument to the g]federal and provincial governments for a one million dollar subsidy per team. The country needs to regain a sense of normalcy as a matter of societal mental health and CFL games would be a big sign that we are recovering. Seven million dollars is really a pittance in government budgets.

The CFL is a cultural institution in canada. Its far more important than some large companies that got very large wage subsidy checks then still did massive lay offs. 

16 hours ago, Tracker said:

I think that the CFL ought to be able to present a credible argument to the g]federal and provincial governments for a one million dollar subsidy per team. The country needs to regain a sense of normalcy as a matter of societal mental health and CFL games would be a big sign that we are recovering. Nine million dollars is really a pittance in government budgets.

Obviously it's hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, but I think there's two main reasons the federal government has no interest in backing the CFL:

(i) A decent chunk of CFL players are American, optically it'll look bad for the feds to help a business that, largely employs non-Canadians.

(ii) Football, by it's very nature, means teams are often adding and dropping players from teams. Many of them American, this again further complicates any help from the feds, as if they subsidize wages etc., they are potentially just helping a CFL fly in a player from the US.

These same reasons would also hamper any argument for vaccinating said players, you could, hypothetically, administer a vaccine to an American player in training camp - three weeks later (or even sooner) they're cut loose.

All that said, I'd agree it'd be nice to have a 2021 season, but I still remain skeptical, given the slow vaccine rollout, and incoming variants.

2 hours ago, Eternal optimist said:

Obviously it's hard to know what goes on behind closed doors, but I think there's two main reasons the federal government has no interest in backing the CFL:

(i) A decent chunk of CFL players are American, optically it'll look bad for the feds to help a business that, largely employs non-Canadians.

(ii) Football, by it's very nature, means teams are often adding and dropping players from teams. Many of them American, this again further complicates any help from the feds, as if they subsidize wages etc., they are potentially just helping a CFL fly in a player from the US.

These same reasons would also hamper any argument for vaccinating said players, you could, hypothetically, administer a vaccine to an American player in training camp - three weeks later (or even sooner) they're cut loose.

All that said, I'd agree it'd be nice to have a 2021 season, but I still remain skeptical, given the slow vaccine rollout, and incoming variants.

With all due respect, that's complete bullshit. If that was a reason, it'd be extremely easy for every team to show that the vast majority of its workforce, players included are Canadian. Nevermind the staff at Stadiums. Or the television crew from TSN and radio personnel from each team.

On top of that, they've already given money to American companies who have laid Canadians off. That theory just doesn't hold any water.

Edited March 3, 20214 yr by Bigblue204

also worth mentioning, while American players are here...they're paying Canadian taxes. 

4 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

With all due respect, that's complete bullshit. If that was a reason, it'd be extremely easy for every team to show that the vast majority of its workforce, players included are Canadian. Nevermind the staff at Stadiums. Or the television crew from TSN and radio personnel from each team.

On top of that, they've already given money to American companies who have laid Canadians off. That theory just doesn't hold any water.

My point was merely that optically, the government giving funding to organizations that employ some Americans, for a non-essential service just isn't a politically savvy move. As for TSN - plenty of them would already be employed due to the NHL... as for the Americans paying taxes, great, so does every other employee in every other business that could receive funding.

Realistically I think it's unfeasible for a season to occur without fans in the stands.

21 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

My point was merely that optically, the government giving funding to organizations that employ some Americans, for a non-essential service just isn't a politically savvy move. As for TSN - plenty of them would already be employed due to the NHL... as for the Americans paying taxes, great, so does every other employee in every other business that could receive funding.

Realistically I think it's unfeasible for a season to occur without fans in the stands.

The government has been subsidizing businesses that employ Americans for decades, in the petroleum and manufacturing industries as only two examples.

On 2021-02-26 at 10:37 PM, Noeller said:

Football is different because there's way more players and way more staff. The expenses are way higher. The only comparison is NFL and they've obviously got exponentially more money. 

Every single sport and every single league  is different. They all had issues to overcome. They all had hurdles to leap. They are all managing to find a way. NFL is  not the only comparison .

10 hours ago, the watcher said:

... NFL is  not the only comparison .

No, but they are the best comparison. Pro football to pro football.

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

No, but they are the best comparison. Pro football to pro 

I don't think so. I think the CFLs issues are the size , the TV Money , the fact that it's Canadian not that it's football. The NFL  and the Premier league are comparables.  I think comparing it to the NFL is a " it can't be done excuse " . I also think it happens. The threat of the league folding may be what is needed to push the Gov to pony up some money

Edited March 4, 20214 yr by the watcher

21 hours ago, the watcher said:

I don't think so. I think the CFLs issues are the size , the TV Money , the fact that it's Canadian not that it's football. The NFL  and the Premier league are comparables.  I think comparing it to the NFL is a " it can't be done excuse " . I also think it happens. The threat of the league folding may be what is needed to push the Gov to pony up some money

The CFL's size isn't a plus or a minus. The TV money pays for the players salaries. The NFL played last year, so it's not a 'it can't be done excuse'. The NFL is THE comparison.

Covid is the biggest problem with money as a  close second. The CFL doesn't have the money or the top end management teams that NFL or the Premier leagues have.

The CFL dropped the ball by going to the government, hat in hand, asking for money without a justifying the amount or having the players on board. It wasn't surprising that they were turned down. The first and second rounds of government money have been given out, which makes it much harder to get federal money now. I doubt that the liberals care much about saving the CFL, so they are going to have to save themselves IMO.

On the good news front, Alberta says that everyone who wants a vaccine will be able to get one by the end of June. With the 45 days between vaccinations, that means mid-August should see most people ready to get back to the stadiums in Alberta. If the non-vaccinated folks choose to go to games and get sick, it's on them.

The salary cap is $198.2 million in 2020 and each team gets $255 Million from TV revenue. $56 Million buys you a lot of testing before you make anything else on licensing and whatnot. 

I have looked into various web sources (Forbes, statista.com, packers.com, Blue Bomber financial statement) and here are some numbers to chew on for those who want to compare the NFL and CFL’s financial situations:

In the NFL, the only public team is Green Bay, so all other financial projections are speculation unless the team reports it. The Bombers likewise out out a financial statement. So the numbers I found for the Dallas Cowboys, the Packers and the Bombers are as follows -

Expenses in 2019: $32.8 million (Bombers), $439 million (Packers), $425 million (Cowboys)

2019 revenues: $36.3 million (Bombers), $508 million (Packers), $960 million (Cowboys)

Of note, the Bombers biggest single revenue increase was $2.2 million more in game day merchandise and concessions, the Packers was $70 million more in league TV revenue  

Salary cap: $5.4 million in CFL (16.5% of Bombers’ total expenses) $198.2 million in NFL (45.1% of Packers’ and 46.6% of Cowboys’ total expenses)

2019 revenue from ticket sales alone: $11.5 million (Bombers - 31.7% of total revenue), $77 million (Packers - 15.2% of total revenue, $98 million (Cowboys - 10.2% of total revenue)

TV contract: $50 million league-wide in the CFL ( and a portion of that goes to the league itself and not each club, so the TV revenue is not $50 million split 9 ways and it does NOT cover the players salaries in entirety - the Bombers received $3.9 million in league payments in 2019, or 72.2% of the salary cap and 10.7% of their total revenue, it covers 11.8% of their operating costs), $255 million PER TEAM NFL (Packers and Cowboys 128.7% of the salary cap, Packers 50.2% of total revenue and covers 58.1% of their operating costs, Cowboys 26.6% of total revenue and 60% of their operating costs)

Bombers also generated another 24% of their revenue from game day related money such as concessions sales and merchandise, so 56% of their revenue stream is gone without fans. The Packers estimated that of their $508 million profit, $211 million or 41.5% was internally generated from ticket sales and game day and merchandise sales, and local sponsorships, the rest was league money. The Cowboys projected that without fans it could cost them up to $500 million this past season. The Cowboys other big revenue gain comes from sponsorship dollars, which is why they are the most popular brand and most valuable franchise in the NFL.

So the simple takeaway from this date is: no fans for the Bombers (arguably the healthiest franchise in the CFL - Sask and Edm are the only other 2 whose books are public and they both lost money in 2019 - the Riders basically because they had expenses for marketing a Grey Cup they never hosted, but were close to break even otherwise) means they lose about $19.7 million on game day revenue alone and go from a $3.4 million profit to a $16.3 million loss, likely more, the Cowboys lose $500 million from ALL sources yet still turn a profit of $35 million, and the Packers without fans wipe out any profit on ticket sales alone and likely more with no game day associated revenue, but again their ticket revenue is only 15% of their revenue stream vs 32% for the Bombers.

So let’s stop pretending that we can compare the CFL and NFL equitably based on not having fans in the stands and TV revenues and assume that because other leagues can do it, we should “just find a way”. Unless fans want to agree that if the league plays with zero fans and we fans will cover any losses next year by paying NFL-style ticket prices for every game (and I think we all saw from the Packers-Raiders pre-season game in Winnipeg, not to mention the last few Grey Cups we’ve hosted, how little appetite there is to pay that much from the fans’s point of view), it seems clear that this is more a gate driven league than other sports and no fans means no football  And the Government has no appetite to bail out a sports league because there is no political gain in it for them, and it is more public than a media company bailout supposedly to save thousands of jobs (even if said company *cough* BELL *cough* uses said buyout to pay their stockholders and fires their staff anyway), plus looks better in saving the national economy.

Just my two cents  

 

 

Yes, the NFL and the premier league for that matter, makes and spends a ton of money. More than the CFL could ever hope for. That in itself doesn't make the NFL a bad comparison. Lets not pretend that any league that doesn't play football is a better comparison.  The NFL had a season. They spent what was needed to 'protect' their players. The CFL can't afford to do that. They need the players and the fans to be vaccinated and the vaccination needs to work on multiple versions of Covid.

I read that every team in the CFL lost $1 Million+ last year by not having a season. They chose that route rather than having a season and losing even more money per team. Another $1 Million loss per team would likely kill the league as the owners will shut them down instead of taking more losses. Owners need the probability of making money or at least breaking even to continue in the business.

The Bell bailout was a stupid use of government money IMO. Bailing out other companies without strings attached would be equally stupid. Hopefully they have learned their lesson because they are making Air Canada pay people back for the flights that were cancelled. There was no federal money for a Winnipeg bubble. Don't expect there to be much, if any, to save our league.

There is a federal election looming and considering how much stimulus/survival money is being thrown around, 9 million dollars is almost negligible.

3 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

I have looked into various web sources (Forbes, statista.com, packers.com, Blue Bomber financial statement) and here are some numbers to chew on for those who want to compare the NFL and CFL’s financial situations:

In the NFL, the only public team is Green Bay, so all other financial projections are speculation unless the team reports it. The Bombers likewise out out a financial statement. So the numbers I found for the Dallas Cowboys, the Packers and the Bombers are as follows -

Expenses in 2019: $32.8 million (Bombers), $439 million (Packers), $425 million (Cowboys)

2019 revenues: $36.3 million (Bombers), $508 million (Packers), $960 million (Cowboys)

Of note, the Bombers biggest single revenue increase was $2.2 million more in game day merchandise and concessions, the Packers was $70 million more in league TV revenue  

Salary cap: $5.4 million in CFL (16.5% of Bombers’ total expenses) $198.2 million in NFL (45.1% of Packers’ and 46.6% of Cowboys’ total expenses)

2019 revenue from ticket sales alone: $11.5 million (Bombers - 31.7% of total revenue), $77 million (Packers - 15.2% of total revenue, $98 million (Cowboys - 10.2% of total revenue)

TV contract: $50 million league-wide in the CFL ( and a portion of that goes to the league itself and not each club, so the TV revenue is not $50 million split 9 ways and it does NOT cover the players salaries in entirety - the Bombers received $3.9 million in league payments in 2019, or 72.2% of the salary cap and 10.7% of their total revenue, it covers 11.8% of their operating costs), $255 million PER TEAM NFL (Packers and Cowboys 128.7% of the salary cap, Packers 50.2% of total revenue and covers 58.1% of their operating costs, Cowboys 26.6% of total revenue and 60% of their operating costs)

Bombers also generated another 24% of their revenue from game day related money such as concessions sales and merchandise, so 56% of their revenue stream is gone without fans. The Packers estimated that of their $508 million profit, $211 million or 41.5% was internally generated from ticket sales and game day and merchandise sales, and local sponsorships, the rest was league money. The Cowboys projected that without fans it could cost them up to $500 million this past season. The Cowboys other big revenue gain comes from sponsorship dollars, which is why they are the most popular brand and most valuable franchise in the NFL.

So the simple takeaway from this date is: no fans for the Bombers (arguably the healthiest franchise in the CFL - Sask and Edm are the only other 2 whose books are public and they both lost money in 2019 - the Riders basically because they had expenses for marketing a Grey Cup they never hosted, but were close to break even otherwise) means they lose about $19.7 million on game day revenue alone and go from a $3.4 million profit to a $16.3 million loss, likely more, the Cowboys lose $500 million from ALL sources yet still turn a profit of $35 million, and the Packers without fans wipe out any profit on ticket sales alone and likely more with no game day associated revenue, but again their ticket revenue is only 15% of their revenue stream vs 32% for the Bombers.

So let’s stop pretending that we can compare the CFL and NFL equitably based on not having fans in the stands and TV revenues and assume that because other leagues can do it, we should “just find a way”. Unless fans want to agree that if the league plays with zero fans and we fans will cover any losses next year by paying NFL-style ticket prices for every game (and I think we all saw from the Packers-Raiders pre-season game in Winnipeg, not to mention the last few Grey Cups we’ve hosted, how little appetite there is to pay that much from the fans’s point of view), it seems clear that this is more a gate driven league than other sports and no fans means no football  And the Government has no appetite to bail out a sports league because there is no political gain in it for them, and it is more public than a media company bailout supposedly to save thousands of jobs (even if said company *cough* BELL *cough* uses said buyout to pay their stockholders and fires their staff anyway), plus looks better in saving the national economy.

Just my two cents  

 

 

All well & good but find a way.... 

It seems like most provinces are aiming to have all adults given at least one dose by June. If that’s the case, why can’t we have fans? 

 

Honestly thought Toronto would be higher, and don't understand why Sask is that high.... but I don't really understand betting/odds either, so.....ya.