blue_gold_84 Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, SPuDS said: how can you tho? Its only happening sporadically, not with any regularity and it seems like whenever we have this breakdown occur the opposition just makes a good play.. nobody is really being victimized anymore like earlier in the season.. I think the most recent "explosive plays" have just been dumb bad luck for us to have a miscue and the opposition QB picks up on it and makes us pay. these are to be expected tho when running as many rookies as we do in the defense. Richie always said you can count 1 lost for every rookie you start as they will make mistakes.. How can you what, tally the number of 20+ yard plays allowed by a D? Easily enough, I'd think. Go through a game log and see how many plays of 20+ yards the opposition had. I'm just too lazy to do it. Sure, the Bombers' defense gives up big plays sporadically. However, they are very costly plays at inopportune times which then seems to only swing momentum in the opponent's favour. I understand there are rookies on the defense but why not find ways to insulate them so they don't get exposed so easily...? Surely, there has to be a way to improve things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportmentary2012 Posted September 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 On 9/5/2017 at 2:41 PM, USABomberfan said: Also, you're out to lunch on that whole Nichols interception that was thrown because Ed Gainey is just simply a taller guy than Denmark, and Denmark has made many diving catches in his career so you know little about that. And by the way thank god we don't have one star WR, we don't need a guy who must have his catches game in and game out. I said pa-pa-pardon me? You proved my point. I know the type of catches Denmark can/has made on slants, over the middle, crossing patters but not deep jump balls. It was a poor throw to the wrong player being covered by a guy who is an INT machine right now. Keep trying to discredit me if it makes you feel better but the guys on the post game show were saying the same thin gas me. I guess they are wrong too. Moreover, Lapo was also unimpressed with the offence last game but what does he know?? shadybob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCarayGary Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said: How can you what, tally the number of 20+ yard plays allowed by a D? Easily enough, I'd think. Go through a game log and see how many plays of 20+ yards the opposition had. I'm just too lazy to do it. Sure, the Bombers' defense gives up big plays sporadically. However, they are very costly plays at inopportune times which then seems to only swing momentum in the opponent's favour. I understand there are rookies on the defense but why not find ways to insulate them so they don't get exposed so easily...? Surely, there has to be a way to improve things. Bombers have given up 40 big plays. The next closest is Hamilton at 30. The high powered O we see is fantastic and all, but the D is just horrendous. Meanwhile, we have had 23 big plays, only Toronto and Hamilton have less (which is actually surprising and shows that this is a methodical O). To break it downs some..... Big plays surrendered per game: WPG - 4.000 HAM - 3.333 BC - 3.300 SSK - 2.889 OTT - 2.364 CGY - 2.300 EDM - 2.200 TOR - 2.182 MTL - 1.700 Big runs surrendered per game: WPG - 0.900 EDM - 0.700 HAM - 0.667 BC - 0.400 CGY - 0.400 MTL - 0.400 SSK - 0.333 TOR - 0.273 OTT - 0.182 Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Note that I am not going to do a breakdown of the special teams rate per game because it is just embarrassing and shocking how bad it stacks up to the rest of the league (we need a new ST coordinator perhaps even worse than a new DC) The Hall bend but don't break, but actually break D is frustrating to no end. When the turnovers were rolling in it masked it a bit, but right now those are not coming. Mark F, blitzmore, Tracker and 1 other 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_gold_84 Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 minute ago, HarryCarayGary said: Bombers have given up 40 big plays. The next closest is Hamilton at 30. The high powered O we see is fantastic and all, but the D is just horrendous. Meanwhile, we have had 23 big plays, only Toronto and Hamilton have less (which is actually surprising and shows that this is a methodical O). To break it downs some..... Big plays surrendered per game: WPG - 4.000 HAM - 3.333 BC - 3.300 SSK - 2.889 OTT - 2.364 CGY - 2.300 EDM - 2.200 TOR - 2.182 MTL - 1.700 Big runs surrendered per game: WPG - 0.900 EDM - 0.700 HAM - 0.667 BC - 0.400 CGY - 0.400 MTL - 0.400 SSK - 0.333 TOR - 0.273 OTT - 0.182 Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Note that I am not going to do a breakdown of the special teams rate per game because it is just embarrassing and shocking how bad it stacks up to the rest of the league (we need a new ST coordinator perhaps even worse than a new DC) The Hall bend but don't break, but actually break D is frustrating to no end. When the turnovers were rolling in it masked it a bit, but right now those are not coming. You're a beauty. Thanks for doing the legwork on that! Clearly, the defense needs to be much, much better. Especially in this second half of the season and into the playoffs. Tracker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCarayGary Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 (edited) 7 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said: You're a beauty. Thanks for doing the legwork on that! Clearly, the defense needs to be much, much better. Especially in this second half of the season and into the playoffs. No problem. I am new here and all, so still feeling stuff out some, but I do like playing with stats a bit, so always happy to shoot the odd bit out on it. Thought I may as well do a quick showing of what the Bombers are producing as well..... Big plays made per game: CGY - 3.600 OTT - 3.273 EDM - 3.200 SSK - 3.111 BC - 2.600 MTL - 2.600 WPG - 2.300 TOR - 2.000 HAM - 1.333 Big runs made per game: MTL - 0.800 SSK - 0.667 CGY - 0.600 OTT - 0.455 BC - 0.400 EDM - 0.400 WPG - 0.400 TOR - 0.273 HAM - 0.222 Big passes made per game: CGY - 2.100 EDM - 2.100 OTT - 2.091 BC - 1.800 SSK - 1.778 MTL - 1.500 WPG - 1.500 TOR - 1.364 HAM - 1.000 Big returns made per game: CGY - 0.900 SSK - 0.667 EDM - 0.600 OTT - 0.455 BC - 0.300 WPG - 0.300 TOR - 0.273 MTL - 0.200 HAM - 0.111 Edited September 7, 2017 by HarryCarayGary doing the "for Bombers" look blue_gold_84 and Mark F 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPuDS Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 52 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said: How can you what, tally the number of 20+ yard plays allowed by a D? Easily enough, I'd think. Go through a game log and see how many plays of 20+ yards the opposition had. I'm just too lazy to do it. Sure, the Bombers' defense gives up big plays sporadically. However, they are very costly plays at inopportune times which then seems to only swing momentum in the opponent's favour. I understand there are rookies on the defense but why not find ways to insulate them so they don't get exposed so easily...? Surely, there has to be a way to improve things. no no.. limit the 20 yard+ plays. I know the concept behind it but there hasn't been some magical play that keeps causing these breakdowns. it seems like its an error here.. and an error there.. So i guess playing mistake free football BUT when we have this much change over and this many backups in starting roles.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue_gold_84 Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 Just now, SPuDS said: no no.. limit the 20 yard+ plays. I know the concept behind it but there hasn't been some magical play that keeps causing these breakdowns. it seems like its an error here.. and an error there.. So i guess playing mistake free football BUT when we have this much change over and this many backups in starting roles.. An improved, more consistent pass rush would be a start, IMO. Especially when defending on 2nd & long. SPuDS and johnzo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportmentary2012 Posted September 7, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 26 minutes ago, HarryCarayGary said: Bombers have given up 40 big plays. The next closest is Hamilton at 30. The high powered O we see is fantastic and all, but the D is just horrendous. Meanwhile, we have had 23 big plays, only Toronto and Hamilton have less (which is actually surprising and shows that this is a methodical O). To break it downs some..... Big plays surrendered per game: WPG - 4.000 HAM - 3.333 BC - 3.300 SSK - 2.889 OTT - 2.364 CGY - 2.300 EDM - 2.200 TOR - 2.182 MTL - 1.700 Big runs surrendered per game: WPG - 0.900 EDM - 0.700 HAM - 0.667 BC - 0.400 CGY - 0.400 MTL - 0.400 SSK - 0.333 TOR - 0.273 OTT - 0.182 Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Note that I am not going to do a breakdown of the special teams rate per game because it is just embarrassing and shocking how bad it stacks up to the rest of the league (we need a new ST coordinator perhaps even worse than a new DC) The Hall bend but don't break, but actually break D is frustrating to no end. When the turnovers were rolling in it masked it a bit, but right now those are not coming. This is why I created this post as with those stats it truly is a case of smoke and mirrors. Thanks for doing the leg work. The Bomber brass could use yo uas their stats guy! Tracker 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCarayGary Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said: An improved, more consistent pass rush would be a start, IMO. Especially when defending on 2nd & long. Pass rush and Hall do not get along so well. He runs a ridiculously passive D. That may have worked well in the day and age where you could get away with more contact, but not so much any more. It is strange though, what am I missing as the catalyst for what changed in the D for turnovers? Up until a few games ago the ball hawk term was being used. blue_gold_84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, HarryCarayGary said: Pass rush and Hall do not get along so well. He runs a ridiculously passive D. That may have worked well in the day and age where you could get away with more contact, but not so much any more. It is strange though, what am I missing as the catalyst for what changed in the D for turnovers? Up until a few games ago the ball hawk term was being used. Hall can have a pass rush, just need the DL to get after it, and honestly they were heading in that way but the change at DT has impacted that in a negative light. blue_gold_84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 2 hours ago, HarryCarayGary said: Bombers have given up 40 big plays. The next closest is Hamilton at 30. The high powered O we see is fantastic and all, but the D is just horrendous. Meanwhile, we have had 23 big plays, only Toronto and Hamilton have less (which is actually surprising and shows that this is a methodical O). To break it downs some..... well done, thanks. Montreal defence, so good, and not using the ineffective offence as an excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCarayGary Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, Mark F said: well done, thanks. Montreal defence, so good, and not using the ineffective offence as an excuse. Let's re-evaluate Montreal's D in a couple of weeks. Thorpe is an amazing DC, but they did a lot of gutting there and the armor is starting to crack. Mark F and blue_gold_84 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearpants Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, 17to85 said: Hall can have a pass rush, just need the DL to get after it, and honestly they were heading in that way but the change at DT has impacted that in a negative light. It appears to me that our overall pass rush has significantly gone down since we took out Poop for Okpo... shadybob, blue_gold_84, SPuDS and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCon Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, bearpants said: It appears to me that our overall pass rush has significantly gone down since we took out Poop for Okpo... We don't have those big goal line and 3rd down stands without Poop in the line up. I hope they can get him back in this week. blue_gold_84 and shadybob 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty Liver Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 6 minutes ago, JCon said: We don't have those big goal line and 3rd down stands without Poop in the line up. I hope they can get him back in this week. I don't get it, previously Nevis was only playing about 50% of the snaps as he gets double teamed a lot, who's spelling him if Jake is in there just as much if not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPuDS Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 12 minutes ago, bearpants said: It appears to me that our overall pass rush has significantly gone down since we took out Poop for Okpo... why we took him out in the first place still baffles me.. unless injury or something, I don't get why we would take out such a beast up the middle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted September 7, 2017 Report Share Posted September 7, 2017 1 hour ago, SPuDS said: why we took him out in the first place still baffles me.. unless injury or something, I don't get why we would take out such a beast up the middle You are not alone in your puzzlement. Another puzzler is how Carmichael has been here for so long before he mysteriously and abruptly departed. shadybob 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSource Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 6 hours ago, HarryCarayGary said: Bombers have given up 40 big plays. The next closest is Hamilton at 30. The high powered O we see is fantastic and all, but the D is just horrendous. Meanwhile, we have had 23 big plays, only Toronto and Hamilton have less (which is actually surprising and shows that this is a methodical O). To break it downs some..... Big plays surrendered per game: WPG - 4.000 HAM - 3.333 BC - 3.300 SSK - 2.889 OTT - 2.364 CGY - 2.300 EDM - 2.200 TOR - 2.182 MTL - 1.700 Big runs surrendered per game: WPG - 0.900 EDM - 0.700 HAM - 0.667 BC - 0.400 CGY - 0.400 MTL - 0.400 SSK - 0.333 TOR - 0.273 OTT - 0.182 Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Note that I am not going to do a breakdown of the special teams rate per game because it is just embarrassing and shocking how bad it stacks up to the rest of the league (we need a new ST coordinator perhaps even worse than a new DC) The Hall bend but don't break, but actually break D is frustrating to no end. When the turnovers were rolling in it masked it a bit, but right now those are not coming. There is a very interesting point here that has not been mentioned yet. Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Bombers went down he field once in the last game (that I can recall) and on that play Adams had several steps on the defender and Nichols overthrew him. If that had been caught it would have been a TD, and that was still at a point where it may have been a difference maker. The stat above suggests that Sask would be vulnerable to the long pass and the evidence that Adams was open confirms this. It is unfortunate that Lapo does not run an offense to test this very often and that Nichols is not very proficient in the long ball. Unfortunately Bombers tend to play into the strength of that Sask defense and do not appear very interested in testing the known weaknesses of that defense. Even if Nichols can't complete a long one, I'd still run Adams and Lankford deep more often and give it more than 3 attempts this weekend - especially if Bombers fall behind early again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryCarayGary Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, TheSource said: There is a very interesting point here that has not been mentioned yet. Big passes surrendered per game: HAM - 2.111 SSK - 2.111 BC - 2.100 WPG - 2.000 OTT - 1.818 EDM - 1.400 TOR - 1.364 CGY - 1.300 MTL - 1.200 Bombers went down he field once in the last game (that I can recall) and on that play Adams had several steps on the defender and Nichols overthrew him. If that had been caught it would have been a TD, and that was still at a point where it may have been a difference maker. The stat above suggests that Sask would be vulnerable to the long pass and the evidence that Adams was open confirms this. It is unfortunate that Lapo does not run an offense to test this very often and that Nichols is not very proficient in the long ball. Unfortunately Bombers tend to play into the strength of that Sask defense and do not appear very interested in testing the known weaknesses of that defense. Even if Nichols can't complete a long one, I'd still run Adams and Lankford deep more often and give it more than 3 attempts this weekend - especially if Bombers fall behind early again. I think it is all subjective. Analytics give you a good foundation to draw on, but you have to look deeper at the numbers to get the real story. Pointing at the riders number, as you have, shows some serious issues with the long ball, but I think a lot of that came in their first few games where they had a lot of busts. I mean I think the we saw the Bombers hit 3 or 4 in that first meeting alone, maybe more. While every team's D (well, team in general) evolves or regresses in some fashion through the season, it is tough to say that their D has probably not evolved more that anyone's over the past few weeks. Of course that is just from my general recollection of games, I could actually run the numbers week by week if I really wanted to. Toronto's hot and cold O kind of has the same effect on these numbers, as does the slump of the Eskimos. The best way to look at these types of numbers is to actually plot the running averages out every week and see how they are trending. That tells a real story and gives you solid indications on where to start looking more closely. That said, I do agree that they are vulnerable deep. It is a matter of 2 things though 1 - Is there the talent to really do that 2 - Can the line hold long enough to on point one, I think with Dressler back there is. I am not entirely sold on Adams yet, but he does bring some amazing speed as a pro. IMO there is still a need for that one top end large, fast target. I am wondering if Hazleton becomes available from the Esks now. on point 2, I am not sure. While the OL is playing fairly well, Nichols is still statistically the worst under pressure (heat), especially on long balls. Tough to say, but worth going for IMO. Edited September 8, 2017 by HarryCarayGary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearpants Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 15 hours ago, SPuDS said: why we took him out in the first place still baffles me.. unless injury or something, I don't get why we would take out such a beast up the middle you're not the only one... maybe trying it b/c Okpa was healthy the first game makes sense... but unless it's injury related, it's pretty clear he should be in the line-up... SPuDS and JCon 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 Thanks @HarryCarayGary. We all know the moon isn't made of cheese. But if the moon was made of spare ribs, would you eat it? bearpants and blue_gold_84 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 54 minutes ago, Atomic said: Thanks @HarryCarayGary. We all know the moon isn't made of cheese. But if the moon was made of spare ribs, would you eat it? I am more interested in whether or not he would rather be the top scientist in his field or have mad cow disease. SPuDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 25 minutes ago, 17to85 said: I am more interested in whether or not he would rather be the top scientist in his field or have mad cow disease. I was worried he'd choose the mad cow disease... SPuDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest J5V Posted September 8, 2017 Report Share Posted September 8, 2017 6 hours ago, Noeller said: I was worried he'd choose the mad cow disease... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USABomberfan Posted September 9, 2017 Report Share Posted September 9, 2017 Only thing smoke n mirrors right now was the Ridirts 3 wins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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