Around The League Off Season Discussion

[BigBlue]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I remember being shocked. I was certain that Walters was going to pick Durant.  Very disappointed when he didn't.

So is this about your disappointment about Durant  or about Richards?

[Dirty30]

Did Eddie Steele ever line up at RB/FB on short yardage at some point? I'm not suggesting that he should, but I thought at some point in his career he did for some reason. 

[17to85]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

There's lots of justification to say he's a bad pick. There were at least 2 much better players who were ranked higher available when we picked him. He's only caught 1 ball in two years. There is no justifiable reason to say that he's a great, good or average pick yet.  That leaves bad IMO.

Suggesting that he may become good in the future doesn't change the fact that he's done squat in two full years and he's way more likely to be the next Etienne than the next Claremont. In fact, Jade had better stats in his first 2 years then got cut in TC in his 3rd year.

Absolutely no one is complaining that Richards is not a star yet. They are complaining that he hasn't moved past 3rd string NI receiver in two years. Some folks think it's because he hasn't been given a chance, but there aren't any participation ribbons in the pros...   You have to earn your playing time. If he wasn't one of our high draft picks he'd already be gone. How much patience are you expecting?

I don't see anyone suggesting we cut him before TC. I see lots of suggestions that it's his make or break year and that we bring in competition for him. Sounds reasonable considering his output so far.

It's a good thing no one is saying that he's a good great or average pick, that's the entire point, we don't have to be so black and white, we are saying there's no harm in waiting until the entire story of his career is written before casting judgement. It's not about saying he's not a bad pick, it's about waiting to make that call, hence the calls for patience. 

[SPuDS]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

There's lots of justification to say he's a bad pick. There were at least 2 much better players who were ranked higher available when we picked him. He's only caught 1 ball in two years. There is no justifiable reason to say that he's a great, good or average pick yet.  That leaves bad IMO.

Suggesting that he may become good in the future doesn't change the fact that he's done squat in two full years and he's way more likely to be the next Etienne than the next Claremont. In fact, Jade had better stats in his first 2 years then got cut in TC in his 3rd year.

Absolutely no one is complaining that Richards is not a star yet. They are complaining that he hasn't moved past 3rd string NI receiver in two years. Some folks think it's because he hasn't been given a chance, but there aren't any participation ribbons in the pros...   You have to earn your playing time. If he wasn't one of our high draft picks he'd already be gone. How much patience are you expecting?

I don't see anyone suggesting we cut him before TC. I see lots of suggestions that it's his make or break year and that we bring in competition for him. Sounds reasonable considering his output so far.

I see a lot of suggestions that he IS a bad pick already.. not that he could be.  that is not fair to say imo.  I do agree that its make or break for him. 

and don't see a correlation between hes a bad pick and him not being a star or starter?  seems like a pretty easy connection to make imo.  I see people complaining that he hasn't done anything yet.   Jade had more stats because he was able to dress for games.. how is that not making sense?  ditto the other 2 picks in front of him..   come on man, this isn't rocket science here.

[TBURGESS]

5 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's a good thing no one is saying that he's a good great or average pick, that's the entire point, we don't have to be so black and white, we are saying there's no harm in waiting until the entire story of his career is written before casting judgement. It's not about saying he's not a bad pick, it's about waiting to make that call, hence the calls for patience. 

It's not about what he might or might not do in the future, it's about his entire career so far. If he does well this year or in the future, you can move him out of the failure column. It's pretty evident, based on the facts and the stats, that Richards has been a failure and the 'give him a participation ribbon' folks don't want to say it, which is fine, but they also don't want anyone else to say it, which causes the arguments.

I had patience in his first and second seasons. I'd give him TC to prove that he belongs. If he can't then my patience has run out and I'd like to see someone else get the shot.

[TBURGESS]

3 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

I see a lot of suggestions that he IS a bad pick already.. not that he could be.  that is not fair to say imo.  I do agree that its make or break for him. 

and don't see a correlation between hes a bad pick and him not being a star or starter?  seems like a pretty easy connection to make imo.  I see people complaining that he hasn't done anything yet.   Jade had more stats because he was able to dress for games.. how is that not making sense?  ditto the other 2 picks in front of him..   come on man, this isn't rocket science here.

No, it's not rocket science. He is a bad pick because there were better and higher ranked choices on the board and because he hasn't contributed in 2 years. He'll move out of the failure range if he can magically become something he's never been in the CFL before... a contributing member of our team. He'll become a good pick if he becomes better than the alternatives of Waud and/or Durant.

[17to85]

32 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It's not about what he might or might not do in the future, it's about his entire career so far. If he does well this year or in the future, you can move him out of the failure column. It's pretty evident, based on the facts and the stats, that Richards has been a failure and the 'give him a participation ribbon' folks don't want to say it, which is fine, but they also don't want anyone else to say it, which causes the arguments.

I had patience in his first and second seasons. I'd give him TC to prove that he belongs. If he can't then my patience has run out and I'd like to see someone else get the shot.

but if he does well this year and going forward then he really never was a failure, that's the entire point of waiting before we cast judgement. I seem to recall you never really having patience with the guy. Maybe the first year but certainly not last year. Very quick to **** all over players you are. 

[Blueandgold]

1 hour ago, Jpan85 said:

You guys make it out like he was a bum when we drafted him. In his draft year led all CIS in yards and was first team all Canadian.

Alex Vitt is a better player than Richards and got cut for not being able to stay on the field. Richards only still has a job because he was a 2nd round pick.

[TBURGESS]

8 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

but if he does well this year and going forward then he really never was a failure, that's the entire point of waiting before we cast judgement. I seem to recall you never really having patience with the guy. Maybe the first year but certainly not last year. Very quick to **** all over players you are. 

I thought he was a poor draft pick at the time and I said as much. That doesn't mean I didn't have patience with him for the first two years and it doesn't mean I wanted him to fail, but fail he did. 

You love the 'what if's', so what if he gets cut after TC or during the season or after the season, will you cast judgement then? Will you say he was a failure or a bad pick?

[JCon]

Just now, TBURGESS said:

You love the 'what if's', so what if he gets cut after TC or during the season or after the season, will you cast judgement then? Will you say he was a failure or a bad pick?

Yes, that would make the most sense. Evaluating something when all the information is in front of you.

[brett_c_b]

46 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

No, it's not rocket science. He is a bad pick because there were better and higher ranked choices on the board and because he hasn't contributed in 2 years. He'll move out of the failure range if he can magically become something he's never been in the CFL before... a contributing member of our team. He'll become a good pick if he becomes better than the alternatives of Waud and/or Durant.

different sport, not an exact correlation, but by these standards was Mark Scheifele a bad pick in 2011 for the Jets?

Ranked 16th, he was a bit of a reach at 7. Highly touted Sean Couturier was still available as well defenseman Dougie Hamilton amongst others ranked higher than Scheifele.

That season Scheifele managed to get into 7 games for the Jets, earning 1 point. Couturier played 77 in Philadelphia, had a respectable rookie season and earned praise for his mature 2 way game for his age.

The following year Scheifele had a 4 game audition with no points before being sent down.

 

So at the draft, many, myself included thought the Scheifele pick was a miss when a guy like Couturier was available. 

A year later, it really looked like Couturier was the better pick.

2 years after the draft it was a bit murkier as Couturier hit the sophomore slump, but still had a year and a half of experience, Scheifele had 11 games.

 

Fast forward to today, while the steal of the draft probably was Calgary with Gaudreau, Scheifele could end up being the best pick made in the 1st round.

So not saying Richards will ever be useful, but the reason teams have pro GM's instead of forum member GM's is because you don't just run an autodraft based on the yahoo rankings. The pick may or may not work out, but there's no harm in holding off on judgement a bit longer before labeling it.

Or like I labeled the Scheifele pick when it was made, questionable pick but time will tell. And in that case I was reminded why I'm not a pro scout/gm

[Blueandgold]

I'd be ashamed to compare a stud like Scheif to a guy like Richards. 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Blueandgold

[Mr Dee]

30 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

I thought he was a poor draft pick at the time and I said as much. That doesn't mean I didn't have patience with him for the first two years and it doesn't mean I wanted him to fail, but fail he did. 

This very much sounds like you had him labelled right from the start.

And no, you didn't have patience because otherwise you would understand the hip issues he had, not to mention a broken hand last year to start the campaign. You should really change your name to Pat because that's about how far you get into patience.

[DR. CFL]

For all those that jumped on me for asking a question about the National WR depth.....forgive me but it was in fact a question....and not a statement. I am not familiar with the National WR depth chart, I was a fan of Kohlert and even though he struggled last season I was disappointed to see him go and wish him well. He is a quality guy and think he can still contribute to a team.

[brett_c_b]

8 minutes ago, Blueandgold said:

I'd be ashamed to compare a stud like Scheif to a guy like Richards. 

I'm comparing draft day perception. Who perceived Scheifele as a stud when the Jets drafted him at 7? Nobody I was watching the draft did. It was mainly jokes about how the Jets are still drafting as bad as the Jets 1.0 did

[JCon]

6 minutes ago, brett_c_b said:

I'm comparing draft day perception. Who perceived Scheifele as a stud when the Jets drafted him at 7? Nobody I was watching the draft did. It was mainly jokes about how the Jets are still drafting as bad as the Jets 1.0 did

Never mind the hand-wringing and naysaying when Couturier made the jump straight to the NHL.

We'll know how good of a pic Richards was when he leaves the team. This year, next, or 5 years from now.

Edited March 3, 2017 by JCon

[BigBlue]

19 minutes ago, Blueandgold said:

I'd be ashamed to compare a stud like Scheif to a guy like Richards. 

sounds like you have been shown up .... so wear your shame

[bearpants]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

You love the 'what if's', so what if he gets cut after TC or during the season or after the season, will you cast judgement then? Will you say he was a failure or a bad pick?

Of course... that's pretty much exactly what everyone is saying 

[mbrg]

42 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

For all those that jumped on me for asking a question about the National WR depth.....forgive me but it was in fact a question....and not a statement. I am not familiar with the National WR depth chart, I was a fan of Kohlert and even though he struggled last season I was disappointed to see him go and wish him well. He is a quality guy and think he can still contribute to a team.

The way it seems to go I'm expecting him to have a 2,000 yard season now that he's with the Stamps.  Call it the Adarius effect.

Bombers will very likely draft one receiver and possibly a second one (or sign one post-draft).  Those players will join Feoli-Guidino, Richards and Coates in camp.  15 receivers is a typical number for camp; this year I'd expect 10 of those to be imports.

[Fatty Liver]

I can't see Richards being cut no matter what he shows in TC, there just isn't enough depth right now.  Even if they pick up a receiver in the draft, he won't be starting.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

I thought he was a poor draft pick at the time and I said as much. That doesn't mean I didn't have patience with him for the first two years and it doesn't mean I wanted him to fail, but fail he did. 

You love the 'what if's', so what if he gets cut after TC or during the season or after the season, will you cast judgement then? Will you say he was a failure or a bad pick?

yes because if he doesn't make the team after coming in healthy having an offseason to prepare or if he gets hurt again then we can cast judgement because his time with this team will have come to an end. You said yourself, you called it a bad pick when it was made, you had him labelled as a failure from the get go. 

Fact is that the guy had a rough go of things with his health in the first couple years, let's see what he can do when he's not struggling with that before we label people. That is all anyone has said, hold off on the snap judgements and just don't be such a debbie downer. Give it a try sometime, you might find is changes your outlook on life. 

[Tracker]

13 minutes ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

I can't see Richards being cut no matter what he shows in TC, there just isn't enough depth right now.  Even if they pick up a receiver in the draft, he won't be starting.

And this is different from Richards how?

[DR. CFL]

Like it or not in professional sport....any professional sport durability is a requirement. Bad luck or the often over used, inaccurate term of being "injury prone" aside. If you don't prove yourself to be durable with limited depth and rosters you become a liability. Case in point might be the example of Neufeld.

[Fatty Liver]

4 minutes ago, tracker said:

And this is different from Richards how?

Richards already knows the playbook and what he needs to do.  All he has to do is beat out JFG and he starts.

[TBURGESS]

Snap judgement for a guy going into his 3rd year? Nope. It's called judging him based on his time with the Bombers.

Folks around here want to completely ignore his first 2 years. For some unknown reason his 3rd year is the only one that matters. 

BTW, I don't follow hockey, so I don't know the references Brett's making, but I know enough to know that the NFL draft is nothing like the CFL draft.