I don't normally over react like this but I don't see this team improving under him. Hanging his hat on too many people that haven't performed like Brohm,Bellefeuille

I was one of those who maintained that throwing a challenge flag "just because" was a dumb idea and I stand by that.  Listening to the coaches show, I hear a HC that is running scared right now and is beginning to doubt himself.  Sure, in hindsight, it would have been a perfect time to throw the flag, knowing what he knows now.  The problem is that he didn't know it then.  To me he's starting to sound more like a guy who's focused on trying to hang on to his job, and less like a guy who's confident enough to stand by his decision and justify it.

 

I'm hoping that he gets on whoever he has to in the organization to make sure that he's given timely, accurate information when he needs it because for me, that was the real issue with this situation.

Well said WWBFanWest

I was one of those who maintained that throwing a challenge flag "just because" was a dumb idea and I stand by that.  Listening to the coaches show, I hear a HC that is running scared right now and is beginning to doubt himself.  Sure, in hindsight, it would have been a perfect time to throw the flag, knowing what he knows now.  The problem is that he didn't know it then.  To me he's starting to sound more like a guy who's focused on trying to hang on to his job, and less like a guy who's confident enough to stand by his decision and justify it.

 

I'm hoping that he gets on whoever he has to in the organization to make sure that he's given timely, accurate information when he needs it because for me, that was the real issue with this situation.

That's where you (and others) and me (and others) disagree.

First, It wouldn't have been thrown for 'just because', because that implies I'm throwing a challenge flag for no other reason than the simple fact of throwing it.  Not true in this case. There would have been reasons (debatable yes but still reasons), other than just wanting to ensure it was a catch, for which I have mentioned in previous posts.

Second, calling it a 'dumb idea' suggests very few, if any, believe that throwing the challenge flag at that moment with those circumstances would have been a good thing. Not true in this case. It seems more than a few (and some probably a lot smarter than me) equal to your side of the debate believe it would have been the appropriate thing to do..

Third, the beauty of hindsight is when a similar scenario presents itself again (and by your own admission, a perfect time to throw it), you can now apply that learning, maximizing (not guaranteeing) a successful result based based on experience.    

 

I was one of those who maintained that throwing a challenge flag "just because" was a dumb idea and I stand by that.  Listening to the coaches show, I hear a HC that is running scared right now and is beginning to doubt himself.  Sure, in hindsight, it would have been a perfect time to throw the flag, knowing what he knows now.  The problem is that he didn't know it then.  To me he's starting to sound more like a guy who's focused on trying to hang on to his job, and less like a guy who's confident enough to stand by his decision and justify it.

 

I'm hoping that he gets on whoever he has to in the organization to make sure that he's given timely, accurate information when he needs it because for me, that was the real issue with this situation.

That's where you (and others) and me (and others) disagree.

First, It wouldn't have been thrown for 'just because', because that implies I'm throwing a challenge flag for no other reason than the simple fact of throwing it.  Not true in this case. There would have been reasons (debatable yes but still reasons), other than just wanting to ensure it was a catch, for which I have mentioned in previous posts.

Second, calling it a 'dumb idea' suggests very few, if any, believe that throwing the challenge flag at that moment with those circumstances would have been a good thing. Not true in this case. It seems more than a few (and some probably a lot smarter than me) equal to your side of the debate believe it would have been the appropriate thing to do..

Third, the beauty of hindsight is when a similar scenario presents itself again (and by your own admission, a perfect time to throw it), you can now apply that learning, maximizing (not guaranteeing) a successful result based based on experience.    

 

The reason that I call it a dumb idea is simple.  In my understanding, you throw a challenge flag when you believe that the officials have made an challengeable error.  To have that belief, you need some evidence in that moment that the official is wrong.   O'Shea has said he had none.  There is no other good reason that I'm aware of to throw one, so if you are throwing it without evidence, that's just dumb.

 

And as to your point about a similar scenario presenting itself, there are big plays or circus catches occurring every game.  You can't challenge every one of them, just because.  You need evidence and that is what O'Shea, in my opinion, needs to focus on.  Go find the replay guy, kick his butt and tell him that he better start doing his job before he (O'Shea) loses his.

 

Anyway, I think I've said all I need to on this one, so let's just do the "agree to disagree" thing and move on, shall we?

 

 

I was one of those who maintained that throwing a challenge flag "just because" was a dumb idea and I stand by that.  Listening to the coaches show, I hear a HC that is running scared right now and is beginning to doubt himself.  Sure, in hindsight, it would have been a perfect time to throw the flag, knowing what he knows now.  The problem is that he didn't know it then.  To me he's starting to sound more like a guy who's focused on trying to hang on to his job, and less like a guy who's confident enough to stand by his decision and justify it.

 

I'm hoping that he gets on whoever he has to in the organization to make sure that he's given timely, accurate information when he needs it because for me, that was the real issue with this situation.

That's where you (and others) and me (and others) disagree.

First, It wouldn't have been thrown for 'just because', because that implies I'm throwing a challenge flag for no other reason than the simple fact of throwing it.  Not true in this case. There would have been reasons (debatable yes but still reasons), other than just wanting to ensure it was a catch, for which I have mentioned in previous posts.

Second, calling it a 'dumb idea' suggests very few, if any, believe that throwing the challenge flag at that moment with those circumstances would have been a good thing. Not true in this case. It seems more than a few (and some probably a lot smarter than me) equal to your side of the debate believe it would have been the appropriate thing to do..

Third, the beauty of hindsight is when a similar scenario presents itself again (and by your own admission, a perfect time to throw it), you can now apply that learning, maximizing (not guaranteeing) a successful result based based on experience.    

 

The reason that I call it a dumb idea is simple.  In my understanding, you throw a challenge flag when you believe that the officials have made an challengeable error.  To have that belief, you need some evidence in that moment that the official is wrong.   O'Shea has said he had none.  There is no other good reason that I'm aware of to throw one, so if you are throwing it without evidence, that's just dumb.

 

And as to your point about a similar scenario presenting itself, there are big plays or circus catches occurring every game.  You can't challenge every one of them, just because.  You need evidence and that is what O'Shea, in my opinion, needs to focus on.  Go find the replay guy, kick his butt and tell him that he better start doing his job before he (O'Shea) loses his.

 

Anyway, I think I've said all I need to on this one, so let's just do the "agree to disagree" thing and move on, shall we?

 

First bold = not true

Second Bold = True

Third Bold = Likewise

Fourth bold = Absoutely

Sometimes you need to challenge just based on the timing in the game, the significance of the play you are challenging , to regroup your team and slowdown the momentum of the opposing team. It isn't necessary always going to be based on pure video review. It maybe part experience and part instinct.

The challenge flag should have been thrown. MOS admits it now. Just the way the catch was made looked contested. Crucial time of the game & the catch put the Bombers in scoring position. At that moment throwing the flag would have been the right call. Had MOS thrown that flag & the catch overturned we may have gone to overtime. What's the difference between throwing that flag or going for a first down on short yardage? Both are gambles coaches have to take. It would have been worth it. As it stands we're a 4-9 team & counting anyway,our HC is a genius in waiting & our GM deserves another year of mediocrity before some people here feel he is accountable. Good luck selling this coaching & management team to Winnipeggers other than the hard core fans here next year if nothing changes. 

 

 

Yeah but it's going to be a tough sell unless they bring in Hufnagel to run everything anyway. You know what sells? Results. Not names. These guys put a roster on the field that can win fans will be back. Better performance by Kyle Walters and a new, quality offensive coordinator should work wonders for this team. 

 

The challenge flag should have been thrown. MOS admits it now. Just the way the catch was made looked contested. Crucial time of the game & the catch put the Bombers in scoring position. At that moment throwing the flag would have been the right call. Had MOS thrown that flag & the catch overturned we may have gone to overtime. What's the difference between throwing that flag or going for a first down on short yardage? Both are gambles coaches have to take. It would have been worth it. As it stands we're a 4-9 team & counting anyway,our HC is a genius in waiting & our GM deserves another year of mediocrity before some people here feel he is accountable. Good luck selling this coaching & management team to Winnipeggers other than the hard core fans here next year if nothing changes. 

 

 

Yeah but it's going to be a tough sell unless they bring in Hufnagel to run everything anyway. You know what sells? Results. Not names. These guys put a roster on the field that can win fans will be back. Better performance by Kyle Walters and a new, quality offensive coordinator should work wonders for this team. 

 

I maintain that if we go 5-13 or 4-14 changes will have to be made at the coaching level. I just can't see MOS surviving. We'll be hard pressed to equal our record of last year. We were woefully unprepared for the Willy injury at the qb position. That's on both Walters & MOS for thinking our backups were CFL calibre players when they were not. . 

 

 

The challenge flag should have been thrown. MOS admits it now. Just the way the catch was made looked contested. Crucial time of the game & the catch put the Bombers in scoring position. At that moment throwing the flag would have been the right call. Had MOS thrown that flag & the catch overturned we may have gone to overtime. What's the difference between throwing that flag or going for a first down on short yardage? Both are gambles coaches have to take. It would have been worth it. As it stands we're a 4-9 team & counting anyway,our HC is a genius in waiting & our GM deserves another year of mediocrity before some people here feel he is accountable. Good luck selling this coaching & management team to Winnipeggers other than the hard core fans here next year if nothing changes. 

 

 

Yeah but it's going to be a tough sell unless they bring in Hufnagel to run everything anyway. You know what sells? Results. Not names. These guys put a roster on the field that can win fans will be back. Better performance by Kyle Walters and a new, quality offensive coordinator should work wonders for this team. 

 

I maintain that if we go 5-13 or 4-14 changes will have to be made at the coaching level. I just can't see MOS surviving. We'll be hard pressed to equal our record of last year. We were woefully unprepared for the Willy injury at the qb position. That's on both Walters & MOS for thinking our backups were CFL calibre players when they were not. . 

 

Why be so rigid? Coaching isn't the biggest issue so why fire the coach? New OC and better talent should provide better results and we can give O'Shea the proper tools to succeed. 

I was one of those who maintained that throwing a challenge flag "just because" was a dumb idea and I stand by that.  Listening to the coaches show, I hear a HC that is running scared right now and is beginning to doubt himself.  Sure, in hindsight, it would have been a perfect time to throw the flag, knowing what he knows now.  The problem is that he didn't know it then.  To me he's starting to sound more like a guy who's focused on trying to hang on to his job, and less like a guy who's confident enough to stand by his decision and justify it.

 

I'm hoping that he gets on whoever he has to in the organization to make sure that he's given timely, accurate information when he needs it because for me, that was the real issue with this situation.

Suspect this has not been the first time.......

I can only imagine the dismay (and possible embarrassment) of some of the egomaniacal here (you know who you are, LOL) when O'Shea confessed he had goofed with the non-challenge thing on Roger's "catch". O'Shea did what they cannot -- admit he made a mistake. Good for him. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't hate Mike O'Shea and there are things about him I genuinely like and admire, but I will continue to call 'em as I see 'em. 

 

Which reminds me, O'Shea said he saw Rogers "catch" as a catch and that was why he didn't challenge it. That concerns me because it points to a growing problem I see with Mike. He seems to see a lot of things different from many of us, whether it's his opinion of Bellefeuille's "excellence" and "intelligence", or the performance of his players (Kuale's late hits and chest-pounding), or the plays on the field (Roger's "catch"). I'm beginning to wonder if he's very astute at grasping reality sometimes. This problem is compounded further by Mike's stubbornness and insistence that what he sees is, in fact, reality. Maybe it's a lingering effect of all that time spent as one of Toronto's Manchurian candidates. Whatever it is, he better snap out of it quick because this team needs a head coach that makes better decisions regarding personnel and is a lot sharper and better able to think on his feet than he has shown to date.

Agenda still going strong, but wrong, wrong, and still wrong.

As fans we have the benefit of hindsight and replay. Not sure MOS had that. I mean to most people watching it was a good catch. 5 seconds later. Ball is snapped again. Maybe 10 seconds. It's easy to sit here and say he should have thrown the flag but... in the heat of the moment it did look like a good catch. I'd have been more surprised if he challenged it and it was ruled not a catch. The replay officials haven't exactly inspired confidence this year. I think if they review it they call it a catch regardless of what it looked like on replay.

And the ignore list grows...

And the ignore list grows...

Truly a wonderful feature

 

 

 

The challenge flag should have been thrown. MOS admits it now. Just the way the catch was made looked contested. Crucial time of the game & the catch put the Bombers in scoring position. At that moment throwing the flag would have been the right call. Had MOS thrown that flag & the catch overturned we may have gone to overtime. What's the difference between throwing that flag or going for a first down on short yardage? Both are gambles coaches have to take. It would have been worth it. As it stands we're a 4-9 team & counting anyway,our HC is a genius in waiting & our GM deserves another year of mediocrity before some people here feel he is accountable. Good luck selling this coaching & management team to Winnipeggers other than the hard core fans here next year if nothing changes. 

 

 

Yeah but it's going to be a tough sell unless they bring in Hufnagel to run everything anyway. You know what sells? Results. Not names. These guys put a roster on the field that can win fans will be back. Better performance by Kyle Walters and a new, quality offensive coordinator should work wonders for this team. 

 

I maintain that if we go 5-13 or 4-14 changes will have to be made at the coaching level. I just can't see MOS surviving. We'll be hard pressed to equal our record of last year. We were woefully unprepared for the Willy injury at the qb position. That's on both Walters & MOS for thinking our backups were CFL calibre players when they were not. . 

 

Why be so rigid? Coaching isn't the biggest issue so why fire the coach? New OC and better talent should provide better results and we can give O'Shea the proper tools to succeed. 

 

Selling credibility & season tickets will be the biggest issues for the Bombers this off season, I'd think. 

I can only imagine the dismay (and possible embarrassment) of some of the egomaniacal here (you know who you are, LOL) when O'Shea confessed he had goofed with the non-challenge thing on Roger's "catch". O'Shea did what they cannot -- admit he made a mistake. Good for him. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I don't hate Mike O'Shea and there are things about him I genuinely like and admire, but I will continue to call 'em as I see 'em. 

 

Which reminds me, O'Shea said he saw Rogers "catch" as a catch and that was why he didn't challenge it. That concerns me because it points to a growing problem I see with Mike. He seems to see a lot of things different from many of us, whether it's his opinion of Bellefeuille's "excellence" and "intelligence", or the performance of his players (Kuale's late hits and chest-pounding), or the plays on the field (Roger's "catch"). I'm beginning to wonder if he's very astute at grasping reality sometimes. This problem is compounded further by Mike's stubbornness and insistence that what he sees is, in fact, reality. Maybe it's a lingering effect of all that time spent as one of Toronto's Manchurian candidates. Whatever it is, he better snap out of it quick because this team needs a head coach that makes better decisions regarding personnel and is a lot sharper and better able to think on his feet than he has shown to date.

Did you just say our head coach is delusional? And not in a "you so crazy.." way but a "im concerned for your well being.." way??

 

 

 

 

The challenge flag should have been thrown. MOS admits it now. Just the way the catch was made looked contested. Crucial time of the game & the catch put the Bombers in scoring position. At that moment throwing the flag would have been the right call. Had MOS thrown that flag & the catch overturned we may have gone to overtime. What's the difference between throwing that flag or going for a first down on short yardage? Both are gambles coaches have to take. It would have been worth it. As it stands we're a 4-9 team & counting anyway,our HC is a genius in waiting & our GM deserves another year of mediocrity before some people here feel he is accountable. Good luck selling this coaching & management team to Winnipeggers other than the hard core fans here next year if nothing changes. 

 

 

Yeah but it's going to be a tough sell unless they bring in Hufnagel to run everything anyway. You know what sells? Results. Not names. These guys put a roster on the field that can win fans will be back. Better performance by Kyle Walters and a new, quality offensive coordinator should work wonders for this team. 

 

I maintain that if we go 5-13 or 4-14 changes will have to be made at the coaching level. I just can't see MOS surviving. We'll be hard pressed to equal our record of last year. We were woefully unprepared for the Willy injury at the qb position. That's on both Walters & MOS for thinking our backups were CFL calibre players when they were not. . 

 

Why be so rigid? Coaching isn't the biggest issue so why fire the coach? New OC and better talent should provide better results and we can give O'Shea the proper tools to succeed. 

 

Selling credibility & season tickets will be the biggest issues for the Bombers this off season, I'd think. 

 

But that's going to be difficult anyway so why get caught up in changes for the sake of selling tickets? 

It's not about change for change's sake or change to help selling tickets. It's about change to move forward to becoming a better team. I honestly don't see what folks expect O'Shea to do differently next year to pull us out of mediocrity or worse.

FIRE THE OC... which is bound to happen. And we are a much better team. 

 

Really do think we are a decent team with a very bad OC who is holding us back big time. 

It's not about change for change's sake or change to help selling tickets. It's about change to move forward to becoming a better team. I honestly don't see what folks expect O'Shea to do differently next year to pull us out of mediocrity or worse.

 

And it sad because whether is right or wrong (to cut the coach/es) that's the reason why coach/es doesn't want to come here. Winnipeg is a coach's grave yard.

 

I don't want us to cut coach/es and then we end up with someone worse as a replacements because no one wants to come here.

Walters has more than one tough decision to make this off season. If he truly wants to remain as the GM, and not put his name in at Guelph, then a total review of operations must be undertaken. Start with MB. He must be replaced. If O'Shea balks at that, then , I'm afraid he must go too. He won't. Extend who we have to extend, and by gum, get some decent players in here on the O-line, D-Line and get one of those circus-catch receivers who will entice other coaches to throw the challenge flag. Simple, right?

 

It's not about change for change's sake or change to help selling tickets. It's about change to move forward to becoming a better team. I honestly don't see what folks expect O'Shea to do differently next year to pull us out of mediocrity or worse.

 

And it sad because whether is right or wrong (to cut the coach/es) that's the reason why coach/es doesn't want to come here. Winnipeg is a coach's grave yard.

 

I don't want us to cut coach/es and then we end up with someone worse as a replacements because no one wants to come here.

 

I don't see it getting any worse with a different HC. Regina's the only team behind us in the standings, and they'd be tied with us if Glenn came back a week earlier IMHO.

 

We don't fire coaches as quickly as Montreal does and they can still bring new ones in, so I don't see firing O'Shea costing us chances at bringing in a new coach. 

It's not about change for change's sake or change to help selling tickets. It's about change to move forward to becoming a better team. I honestly don't see what folks expect O'Shea to do differently next year to pull us out of mediocrity or worse.

And it sad because whether is right or wrong (to cut the coach/es) that's the reason why coach/es doesn't want to come here. Winnipeg is a coach's grave yard.

I don't want us to cut coach/es and then we end up with someone worse as a replacements because no one wants to come here.

I don't see it getting any worse with a different HC. Regina's the only team behind us in the standings, and they'd be tied with us if Glenn came back a week earlier IMHO.

We don't fire coaches as quickly as Montreal does and they can still bring new ones in, so I don't see firing O'Shea costing us chances at bringing in a new coach.

The last two times Montreal has hired a head coach they had multiple candidates around the league turn down interviews and ended up hiring Dan Hawkins and Tom Higgins, both unemployed then and since they were fired. Not the best example.

The best predictor of future performance is past performance, barring major changes, and O'Shea has given no reason for optimism here.