We have been lit up for an awful lot of points this season .... outside of missing two starting LBs and a starting DB, and a downgrade at MLB has anything else changed on our defense?

Last year we strippped the ball with great regularity ... now I am wondering if we are putting the same energy into our tackling .... but how could that have changed?

Is our ball hawking turnover producing coming back when we get our D starters back?

That is what will make us champions I think....

Not sure if I am concerned about the Bombers tackling as a whole...it's the linebackers that concern me the most. When you don't hear your name called on the play by play it probably means you aren't making enough tackles. It's nice to have a Canadian at middle LB but our production there is poor at best.

What's very impressive is that Westerman and Nevis have 12 tackles each so far, Jeffcoat/Okpo/Corney combined have 18... to me, this shows that the DL is containing the QB and RB quite well - that and Hall is mixing up his schemes to drop the DEs - as in, moving into the modern era - so thats good

I like Loffler but I never want the Safety leading the team in tackles...  then again Hall is almost using him as a fourth linebacker for large parts of the game

Nothing too disturbing yet - some missed but nothing as bad as a couple years ago - but LBs need to pick up their game

I'd look at this again after Labour Day...

I will edit this to say that Hurl is severely underperforming when compared to other MLBs this year - with a legit MLB, this defence is drastically improved...  he has 1/3 tackles that Elimimian has and about half of what leading MLBs have.

 

Edited July 30, 20178 yr by Floyd

14 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Hurl is severely underperforming when compared to other MLBs this year

So why are we not moving Knox to the middle?

I had no problem with a scheme with Hurl as MLB as long as the result was beneficial to the overall D play and if it was working.  Its not working.

But, unfortunately, we know the probability of making a major change is unlikely.

Now, maybe, with the LB corps back intact after injuries, our D will be more functional, and at least get us into the playoffs. Then, any thing is possible with this group...

 

I would say our tackling is about average; but that injuries early on in the secondary have really hampered the D.

41 minutes ago, BigBlue said:

So why are we not moving Knox to the middle?

My guess would be that his lack of footspeed would be an even greater liability outside.

Edited July 30, 20178 yr by tracker

I'd much rather see Derek Jones at Field Corner than Hurl at MLB...  its not like thats a position of strength right now anyway 

Have to agree Hurl is not our answer at MLB, to slow to the play, gets caught up in blocks he should be easily shedding, and his tackling is not up to snuff. Most important position on the D and he was finally exposed last week in the run game. Up till then our stalwart Dline had mostly been making up for his weakness against the run. Unfortunately Knox is not An improvement in the middle. Hurls greatest strength are his reads, unfortunately lack of athleticism puts him at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to quality CFL MLB's. If we had someone like Elimimiam, Sherritt, Woods or Singleton, Richie Halls defence would be gold. 

already cited in another thread this is an excellent discussion of our tackling:

https://bomberbuzz.com/2017/07/28/bombers-defensive-backs-struggle-to-defend-run-against-alouettes/amp/

When tackling goes bad you see guys flying by, whiffing, not filling gaps, and guys trying to solo tackle. When tackling goes well you see a lot of wrap up and gang tackling. We havent seen the ladder in a long, long while. 

.........And now you have..

Edited July 31, 20178 yr by Mr Dee

19 hours ago, coach17 said:

Have to agree Hurl is not our answer at MLB, to slow to the play, gets caught up in blocks he should be easily shedding, and his tackling is not up to snuff. Most important position on the D and he was finally exposed last week in the run game. Up till then our stalwart Dline had mostly been making up for his weakness against the run. Unfortunately Knox is not An improvement in the middle. Hurls greatest strength are his reads, unfortunately lack of athleticism puts him at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to quality CFL MLB's. If we had someone like Elimimiam, Sherritt, Woods or Singleton, Richie Halls defence would be gold. 

Hurl was exposed many games ago but he keeps getting put out there. In two seasons, he has had one good game by my recollection.

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

When tackling goes bad you see guys flying by, whiffing, not filling gaps, and guys trying to solo tackle. When tackling goes well you see a lot of wrap up and gang tackling. We havent seen the ladder in a long, long while. 

Gary Etcheverry tackling consultant, at your service. "Swarm Bombers swarm, protect Mother Etcheverry from the wrath of the skeptics!"

15 hours ago, tracker said:

Hurl was exposed many games ago but he keeps getting put out there. In two seasons, he has had one good game by my recollection.

Ok.  He wasn't exposed.  He wasn't shown to be abused.  O'shea on the coaches show last night explained what they do with Hurl.   They use Hurl to "mug" the o-line.   tie up the o-linemen so that the WIL, in this case Knox, can fly around and make plays.   He did the same thing last season when Bass had a 100 tackle season.  His role isn't to be spying, tracking or anything of the sort.  he ties up the blockers so our other LBs can make plays.  O'shea played the exact same role when he was a MLB.,.

 

I hope this settles once and for all the "Hurl is garbage and not playing his position right!" bs.  Like I've said a million times, we dont use our MLB like any other team really does so we NEED to stop assuming that hes playing poorly or incorrectly. He is doing EXACTLY what the coaches are asking of him..

 

16 hours ago, wbbfan said:

When tackling goes bad you see guys flying by, whiffing, not filling gaps, and guys trying to solo tackle. When tackling goes well you see a lot of wrap up and gang tackling. We havent seen the ladder in a long, long while. 

the goal line stand against Montreal? Loffler shut the door on a one on one tackle against Rutley.  We also gang tackled lots on ST..  its not like the team is horrendous play in and play out for tackling.. its like they have collective brain farts and forget how or zone out..

3 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

Ok.  He wasn't exposed.  He wasn't shown to be abused.  O'shea on the coaches show last night explained what they do with Hurl.   They use Hurl to "mug" the o-line.   tie up the o-linemen so that the WIL, in this case Knox, can fly around and make plays.   He did the same thing last season when Bass had a 100 tackle season.  His role isn't to be spying, tracking or anything of the sort.  he ties up the blockers so our other LBs can make plays.  O'shea played the exact same role when he was a MLB.,.

 

I hope this settles once and for all the "Hurl is garbage and not playing his position right!" bs.  Like I've said a million times, we dont use our MLB like any other team really does so we NEED to stop assuming that hes playing poorly or incorrectly. He is doing EXACTLY what the coaches are asking of him..

 

Well it ain't working whatever they are doing...? if it isn't personnel then it's scheme.

Antoine Winfield tackled well. Small guy, who could tackle any size ball carrier.

 

Just now, bb1 said:

Well it ain't working whatever they are doing...? if it isn't personnel then it's scheme.

possibly or it could be that our starters are hurt and the wil and sam are still learning the positions?   I agree, it hasn't been pretty up to this point.  We HAD been stopping the run and containing QBs before Wild and Leggett both went down tho.. that mainly what the LB's (MLB and WIL anyway) are responsible for  IMO.  SAM and the DB's have not been stellar in pass coverage but again, injuries have shaken up that secondary.  (yes I know, before that they were still giving up lots of yards and points) 
 

I'm not sold on Hall either but I'd like to have the healthy defense together again for a game or two before I definitively say that its a mess. 

18 minutes ago, bb1 said:

Well it ain't working whatever they are doing...? if it isn't personnel then it's scheme.

errrrrr.

Ritchie Hall has been a bend but don't break coach his entire career. That means that lots of yards are given up. 

I mean this nonsense about the MLB, it should have been obvious when Wild had few tackles when he played in the middle, or when Bass had few tackles when he played in the middle. But no we'll blame Hurl for everything. 

Wally Buono features his MLB, he lets them make all the plays, Ritchie Hall not so much. 

25 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

errrrrr.

Ritchie Hall has been a bend but don't break coach his entire career. That means that lots of yards are given up. 

I mean this nonsense about the MLB, it should have been obvious when Wild had few tackles when he played in the middle, or when Bass had few tackles when he played in the middle. But no we'll blame Hurl for everything. 

Wally Buono features his MLB, he lets them make all the plays, Ritchie Hall not so much. 

exactly.   People are so hung up about an MLB being a traditional MLB but we really dont use one in that aspect.  we haven't since Hall's been here.  Why this is so confusing, I don't know.  I get people don't like change but its been this way for a long damn time now lol.   We simply don't follow the norm.  Hurl is doing what is asked of him and doing it well.  time to find another scape goat.. especially when hes being lambasted for all the wrong reasons..

Edited August 1, 20178 yr by SPuDS

How much has Leggat played. He made lots of big big playes last year. Last year it was a bend but break the offence's back with a turnover.  At least that is what I see. There is time to rescue this season's defence.  

We miss Wild and Leggett terribly.   Not just from the their knowledge and execution assignments, but their range and big play capability.
The Hall zone (when it works) features our LB's dropping back, deeper than the norm, in certain situations, sometime disguised  - both Wild and Leggett are very good at this, and have made big plays/created turnovers back there. 

The LB crew against Montreal was a hot mess.   Knox is making positional mistakes and not wrapping up on tackles, Alexander and Walker took turns looking lost out there, position wise and gassing tackles.   Hurl is serviceable with better cast around him, but he just does not have the strength/speed to be an impact/difference maker back there.  

I expect some internal improvement (young players learning) moving forward - but we really need to get some people back, here.

 

Edited August 1, 20178 yr by do or die

6 hours ago, SPuDS said:

the goal line stand against Montreal? Loffler shut the door on a one on one tackle against Rutley.  We also gang tackled lots on ST..  its not like the team is horrendous play in and play out for tackling.. its like they have collective brain farts and forget how or zone out..

He did, but goal line tackling for the reason loffler was the one who made the tackle is easier. Every one is much closer to the line. You also dont play for the hit nearly as much, even if you are a hitter over wrap n tackle guy like loffler.

Sts is far different from D. Our defensive unit (when healthy) has a few exceptional 1 on 1 tacklers. Especially with the injuries, but also with the changes in personnel on the front 7 its hard to have that continuity. Gang tackling is all about one guy getting to the ball carrier and trusting that others will follow. We dont have that. What YPC did mtl end up with? 6.9, 24, 21, 7.5 for durant and 2 on one short plunge for vernon. 

5 hours ago, SPuDS said:

exactly.   People are so hung up about an MLB being a traditional MLB but we really dont use one in that aspect.  we haven't since Hall's been here.  Why this is so confusing, I don't know.  I get people don't like change but its been this way for a long damn time now lol.   We simply don't follow the norm.  Hurl is doing what is asked of him and doing it well.  time to find another scape goat.. especially when hes being lambasted for all the wrong reasons..

Whence cometh this information that Hurl playeth suchly?

7 hours ago, do or die said:

We miss Wild and Leggett terribly.   Not just from the their knowledge and execution assignments, but their range and big play capability.
The Hall zone (when it works) features our LB's dropping back, deeper than the norm, in certain situations, sometime disguised  - both Wild and Leggett are very good at this, and have made big plays/created turnovers back there. 

The LB crew against Montreal was a hot mess.   Knox is making positional mistakes and not wrapping up on tackles, Alexander and Walker took turns looking lost out there, position wise and gassing tackles.   Hurl is serviceable with better cast around him, but he just does not have the strength/speed to be an impact/difference maker back there.  

I expect some internal improvement (young players learning) moving forward - but we really need to get some people back, here.

 

Knox has no clue against the pass, doesn't have coverage instincts.  He's a ball chaser and as a result he gets sucked into the line and taken right out of the play a lot.  Rare to see a play where Wild doesn't end up right at the ball, whether it's at the line of scrimmage in his gap or 80 yards away across the field.  Don't see that in Knox.