7 hours ago, Booch said:

Dinwiddie making hay there...Ott will be legit thbs yr

and their Bacjup QB....Not sure who they have behind old man river there....but i if he goes down now...Yikes

Interesting that they cannot retain all key players after a Grey Cup yr, and some at discount like we wer able to several post Grey Cup yrs in a row...tho we played that game a lil too long....but still...Guess the culture and wanna to run thru walls for Mace aint what its all made out to be...plus...It's always gonna be ....Regina

That had a lot to do with our HC. Yes he became loyal to a fault, but it did help us retain our guys that mattered. I am sure you will disagree but look at Mace, cutthroat and it costed him.

When players are treated like they are a commodity and nothing more, they return the favor.

There are a few times that MOS took his lumps for being overly loyal and he needs to dial that back for sure, but guys still stick with him. Mace shouldn't have thrown players under the bus like he did at times. We criticize our coach for not speaking to the media about players, but the players appreciate that.

2 hours ago, Booch said:

Riders taking a nice eviceration ...

Nothing in that organization breeds loyalty. Riders have taken a massive hit. 

Welcome back Kyle Walters. Finally addressing our trenches. A year too late but nothing can be done about that now.

10 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Why would Ceresna want to play on our DL? His job is rushing the QB while other DL's take the blocks. That's not what we do. 

We have never had a beast like Ceresna to turn loose and if you don't think Ceresna has taken his share of double teams i'm not sure what to tell you. He is probably one of the most double teamed guys in the league.

2 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Yeah eventually Defenses will scheme to take your mobility out of the game. As a change of pace guy there will be some value forsure. But as a back-up your 1 play away from starting. Starters need to be able to play from the pocket.

All teams do is change the attack angle of the ends to contain, and have a LBer spy the QB and if he can't read the hole in the defence or can't make the throw it's game over. Sure the odd time a great athlete like Ford might break a tackle for first down or more but over the course of the game it will be 2 and out....a LOT of 2 and out.

7 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It's not sandlot. It's not high school. It's not standing in the pocket going through your reads either.

Highly mobile QB's can be highly effective. They can use their legs while they learn how to read defences. Trying to turn them into drop-back passers is the reason a lot of them fail & turn the ball over.

Ford struggled with a drop-back passing playbook. Smart coaches change their offences to match the players' strengths. If you're not willing to do that, then don't pick a mobile QB in the first place.

Smart coaches don't play sandlot. What you are describing is sandlot. It doesn't work in the pro game. You absolutely have to be able to pass out of the pocket or you are doomed as a QB. That is why Ford sucked so hard last year. Teams simply spied him and he was done because he could not make them pay for that. It is easy to shut down a running QB, even one as good as Ford, if they don't possess the ability to pass well out of the pocket. No offensive coordinator in the world can make that better. If you can't threaten from the pocket you are done as a QB. There is no ands, ifs. or buts. You start rolling out every play, teams will catch onto that and it is very easy to defend half a field. You start tucking and running every 2nd play they spy you and/or run blitz and you are done. You absolutely have to be competent out of the pocket. 

We saw the exact same thing happen with Streveler. They simply gave no option to run and dared him to beat them with his arm. He could not. Exactly what teams did to Ford as well.

17 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Which I was outstanding at btw, stats unbelievable on both sides of the ball and then came the pads and the real football and all of sudden my playmaking ‘changed’ drastically.

Yea...I agree....having talent is only half the battle. Ford is a dynamic athlete who struggles to play with a playbook. He is a guy that could probably be converted to another position and excel but as a QB he just doesn't have it. Not at the pro level anyway, I sure hope we don't sign him as a QB. 

11 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Great, so a high school qb playing in the CFL. Just what we need. 

I'm not even sure he realizes what he has described is pick up football.

10 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The DL used to be our strength when we won two Grey Cups. Since 2021, it's become a throw away position with guys who never would have made those teams in 19 & 21 becoming starters. No desire by Walters, Osh or Younger to rebuild it. Speaking of Younger, I'm actually amazed that he never started an entire defense of defensive backs. 

You gotta have the horses. KW and staff have brought in nothing but ham and eggers since then. I hear lots about the ones that got away, like Garbutt and Fox. If that is the best two DL we have brought in since 21 that's a pretty sad few years of GMing on our DL. I'm not suggesting MOS made it in any better but look at what they had to work with. Nothing. Even if MOS makes the changes we all wanted to see, we have a pitiful DL today. It's time we put some money towards it. We haven't recruited an impact d-lineman since Sayles.

We need to be active in FA on our DL, because we can't recruit worth crap there. I hear a lot, rightfully so, about how much Jake Thomas was playing but all I hear is crickets about what a lousy job our GM and recruiters have done with our DL. Vaughters, that was our one big signing in the last how many years and calling it a big signing is highly debatable. Get some damn stud DL Kyle. Enough is enough.  Honestly if we go after Ceresna and don't get him, at least we tried to improve but if KW doesn't even throw his hat into the ring and cheaps out for some guy that has never been better than rotational then he just needs to be fired. Our problem at DL couldn't be more obvious, lack of talent.

3 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

There is more than one way to play QB & Tre can throw the ball pretty well actually. Way better than Streveler for example. What he can't do is read a defense.

Edmonton tried to make him a pocket passer which was dumb and worked out exactly the way you'd expect. He may never be able to run the quick decision, short game. To be effective he needs to run his style of offense. Ride & decide. 2 reads and run. Break contain. QB draw. Throw deep so every catch is a first down. 

Why bring up Rourke, Kelly and Alexander? They aren't available & aren't pertinant to this discussion.

Rourke, Kelly, and Alexander were in response to Wbb...it's why the big quote box is there. 

As for letting him play sandlot, won't ever happen in professional football...ever. You would be the worst offensive coordinator ever. Sandlot is very low % high turnover football.

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Only one of the things I want in a QB. Being able to run and extend plays are also things that I look at in QB's.

Running backs are there to run, and extending plays only matters if you can throw. A QB can be great without running (Trevor Harris) but they will never be a good QB without being a good passer. Just doesn't happen. Ford is a crap passer ergo he is a crap QB.

10 hours ago, wbbfan said:

absolutely. combine that with the over the hill gang most of the league is starting does the same. 

if some thing drastic doesn’t happen fast, it’s going to be second tier spring league offences we see each week 

In the last 2-3 years we have seen Rourke, Kelly, and Alexander emerge. That's 3 new quality starters in a 9 team league. Im not that worried.

19 hours ago, wbbfan said:

His inability to even get into the OLs pads before the ball was thrown on passing downs. Being one of the very worst DTs in the league against the run and the pass for a couple of years. He couldn't get off blocks, even against centres, didn't demand a double team, and couldn't block a rush lane or pass rush. Usage made him worse, and made it more obvious. But the drop off in his play was one of the steepest I've ever seen. 

2021, Jake was overplayed and used suboptimally for a good chunk of the year. But that was one of the best defences of the era, and when Stove got healthy, he was unblockable in the pass rush and a true 2 gap nose, allowing Jake to go back to a more ideal 3tech. 

2022 Jake was burning out in games earlier and earlier while slogging through more and more reps. He would have a handful of good plays a season, and largely relied on cleaning up after others blew up plays or the O screwed up big time. 

2023 Jake was permanently blown up and unable to impose any kind of disruption to the pass or run game at all. 

He benefited from others' disruption in 22/23, which was the latest his instincts and football iq could carry his body. 

 I mean, that is still 5 very good years at one of the rarer positions for a Canadian to perform at in that time. For a guy who started with mediocre at best athleticism, and who was run into the ground, that is pretty good. 

But it doesn't take much to earn the waste-of-space stigma. Especially at one of the most valuable positions on the football field. 

come back in one year and it will repeat lol

The waste of space stigma while he was a player was totally earned, though not entirely his fault. However, it seems to have carried on into people's objections to him coaching and that is what I was talking about. Some are writing him off as a coach and the guy hasn't coached a game yet. They are translating his last few years as a player as if it directly correlates to how good of a coach he might be. I believe that is unfair.

12 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

He may very well be a shitty coach too. There's always a flip side. He never earned that position. He was given it. 

I guess I'm tired of the entitlement this team has for Osh favourites. I'd have preferred Thomas go coach junior or CIS & gain experience. Maybe move up to DC & then come back to the CFL in 5-7 years

Why would you not want your HC to pick a guy he believes will do well and that he can work with? HC's always pick their favorites amongst guys they are familiar with, to become their coordinators and position coaches. That's not entitlement.

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

FIFY

Kinda what you want your QB to be good at though.

36 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

I doubt Crum or Powell ever becomes a starting QB. I think that Ford still has an outside chance. Our 2nd string should be a guy who can win games and hopefully become a starter in a year or two. Ford could be that guy and in the meantime, he would be a a great short yardage, change of pace, or ride and decide guy. 

Powell is FAR superior to Ford. This isn't even debatable.

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

For me, it's nothing personal against Jake The Person. I know that he's is a nice guy. I'd probably like him if I ever met him.

Unfortunately, it has everything to do with Jake The Player & now Jake The Coach. Thomas was given the starting DT position for years much to the detriment of the team. Starting Thomas blocked development for younger guys who needed to play.. When he did play, it usually was sub standard & not up to the level we needed. 

Now he's been given the DL coaching position by the same head coach who has been gifting him everything for years. Hard not to see the entitlement. That's on Osh for creating that stigma. 

 

There should be no stigma. Direct your disdain for his usage where it belongs. He may very well be an excellent DL coach but many here are writing him off simply because of his name and that is over the top.

I like Crum but wouldn't want him either. If Powell were to shake loose tho.

6 minutes ago, Pete said:

I like Ford he has more tools than Streveler ever did. Im just not sure we can afford the salary

And yes I think he could be qb2 just needs some proper  coaching

I don't think coaching will help him much. He's just not a particularly good passer.

1 minute ago, Noeller said:

Also the whole "he's a giant fat mess" thing somehow got stuck in him. Have you ever seen him in person? He really isn't. He's just built like a whiskey barrel...

He's never been the model of lean and mean, but not many DTs are. The guy played with heart, and worked hard as a player. Not sure why there is so much vitriol when his name is mentioned....or at least why it's being directed towards him.

20 minutes ago, Brandon said:

It's tough because he does have the raw abilities.  I'd feel way more comfortable with him being a 3rd stringer... I wouldn't want to invest in him being a backup though.   

As a QB he serves no purpose to any team right now. One could argue 3rd string, but I'd rather have a guy who hasn't washed out at that position.

25 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I agree. I'd add that he has completely earned the stigma and bias against him. But I think the floor is very high for a replacement, given how we have struggled to coach and develop talent on the DL. The verdict is out on Jake as a coach, but I am not really worrying about him. 

How did he earn the stigma and bias against him? What specifically did he do? I get that his usage was awful, but how is that on him? Imo, he is being unfairly criticized for playing a role that his coaches asked of him. He signed a contract and went on the field when he was told to do so. We can hate the role he played but now it is carrying over into dislike for him personally and that isn't fair for us to do.

20 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yep, all-purpose back, see if he can run any kind of route or screens, motion packs etc. I'd teach him to handle kick-offs, even be a timing rusher off the edge to block kicks. And use him as the sneak guy. 

You could either roster him as the 3rd qb and use him as a flex player all over the rest of the field, or you could roster him as an RB, and carry 3 imp QBs. 

There is a whole lot you can do with a guy that dynamic. QB to S is a strange but surprisingly effective swap for athletic guys as well.  

Would have to come fairly cheap tho.

1 hour ago, Tracker said:

Unless O'Shea has had an on-the-road-to-Damascus epiphany, he is most likely to play non-pets in minor and/or losing situations so as to try to discredit them, then do an I-toldyaso riff. All passive-aggressive stuff.

For some reasom, you are confusing a realistic assessment of Thomas as ineffective and an obatacke to developing younger, better players. with hatred for him. So far as I am aware, he has not eaten any puppies or beaten up any orphans, but am willing to be proven wrong in that regard.

I agree totally that he was an obstacle as a player. That, however, has absolutely nothing to do with my post. Some people, without seeing any results whatsoever are pegging him as a bust as a coach. That assessment can only be created by a massive bias against him.

9 minutes ago, Booch said:

I was gonna say...grab him and convert him into an offensive do whatever tool....motion pre snap....split out back with BO....cause we all know with ball in hand...what he can do...and being a National....what a bonus....I'd have him taking kicks too to see if he has the chops for that

It would be nice to have a backup plan for Vaval for sure. Trey is going to excel this year...gut feeling....but we have seen very little depth at KR/PR in recent years and it would be nice to have.

7 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Step one... sign new guys for a proper OL.  

 

A new C will help a lot but I would like to see at least one really good addition in FA.

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Wilson is as well. White/Wilson/Demski is going to be a nightmare for teams to cover and tackle.100% on the 50/50 guy. If we get that, our wr core will be in great shape. 

I agree. When heads are swiveling around looking in the secondary their feet tend to slow down too and that's where guys get wide open. With slippery guys like we have that will be tough on opposing secondaries. Further to that, I think Demski and White are both exceptional at finding open space on broken plays, and Zach is very good at exploiting teams in that scenario as well.