Ed Tait        ✔ @WFPEdTait

Sources say the #Bombers are not interested in RB Jerome Messam, the CFL's top Canadian in 2011. Going import at the position. #bn

 

Not impressed... Bombers are not in any position to decide import or non-import at a position, especially if Cotton is injured now. Maybe its just talk...

 

The funny part of this argument is that Messam sucks because he had 121 carries for 565 yards and 300+ yards REC...

 

...but Will Ford is a potential all-star because he had 113 carries for 595 and 47 yards REC.  

 

Don't think either of them plays ST.

Some one doesn't pay attention to kick returns... but aside from that I don't particularly want Ford on the team all that much either. He's an OK change of pace runningback and servicable kick returner but you can do better than a guy like that. 

 

 

HA!  That's right!  I forgot about his KR... man. 

Technically, Jerome Messam did have one kick return for 17 yards last year.  So there.

 

 

 

We let Jade Etienne waste a roster spot for 2 years picking his bum on the sidelines doing nothing.

and how did that work out for us?

 

At least we know Messam can play. Etienne? Meh. 

 

do we really know that? Etienne hasn't been cut from any teams yet but Messam just got cut... maybe it's time to admit that it's been a long while since messam was a relevant player in the CFL. RBs have a short shelf life. 

 

At least Messam WAS relevant. What's Etienne's excuse that he's never been? Oh yeah, he isn't good enough. What a huge waste of a first round pick by Mack. Unbelievable.

 

At least Messam WAS relevant. What's Etienne's excuse that he's never been? Oh yeah, he isn't good enough. What a huge waste of a first round pick by Mack. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

Just going on a hunch here, but I bet you like re-runs too.

 

 

At least Messam WAS relevant. What's Etienne's excuse that he's never been? Oh yeah, he isn't good enough. What a huge waste of a first round pick by Mack. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

Just going on a hunch here, but I bet you like re-runs too.

 

Yeah, I sure do. Star Trek, Criminal Minds, NCIS, NCIS LA, Blue Bloods, Cal Murphy

Grigsby and Ford are red herrings in the situation.  Rotating O lineman, RB's and Receivers is so far past a red herring, that it's in the fiction category.  It's just not going to happen.

 

Messam is better than Volny.  That's who he'd be competing for a job with and who he would replace.  

 

Upgrading any NI helps our NI situation.  Bringing in a starting NI (None are available) would help our starting NI situation.

 

Volny had 5 special teams tackles, 6 catches for 40 yards and 37 rushes for 160 yards in 3 years. (CFL.CA)

Messam had 2 special teams tackles, 1 kick return, 31 catches for 317 yards and 121 rushes for 565 yards last year alone. (CFL.CA)

 

No one on this site would be anywhere near as good as Volny, let alone Messam.  Messam doesn't make us worse in any way.

 

Just wanted to add that no one wants to sign every guy who gets cut from other teams.  That one is just another red herring.

So how do you want to use him?  Describe his place on the team, his role, what he will actually contribute.  Be specific.  Connect some dots and demonstrate how he will make this team better this year in real and practical ways.

 

Example of being specific (that requires a fictional depth chart that some will argue about even though that is clearly not the point), if Cotton is our starting RB and Ford is our DI who will replace Cotton in games in the event of injury or rest or pee break - Messam is not as good a running back as Ford (I should probably use Grigsby so all the people who don't like Ford aren't wasting their time arguing a point that isn't the point, but I suspect the Bombers will keep Ford around over Grigsby so I will remain true to myself, jeez this is a really long aside).  (I'll just underline everything not in parenthesis so it's semi-readable)

 

So either the Bombers are going to use:

- Cotton, Ford, Volny

 

Or under your scenario:

- Cotton, Messam, Volny

 

There is no realistic scenario where the Bombers use:

- Cotton, Messam, Ford

 

And there is no practical reason for the Bombers to use:

-Cotton, Ford, Messam

as Messam has no reason to ever touch the ball in that scenario.

 

Practical and specific examples provided.

 

Please feel free to argue with some practical and specific examples as to why you think Messam improves this team.  Messam being better than Volny as a RB has never been a point of debate.  Only the complete lack of practical relevance that his superiority has is being argued.

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will?  Where's the face palm emoticon?  

 

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it?  If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense.  A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

 

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing.  My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster.  Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense.  Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

Messam is a headcase and frankly worth more trouble than he's worth.

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will?  Where's the face palm emoticon?  

 

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it?  If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense.  A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

 

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing.  My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster.  Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense.  Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

I am reading what you're typing.  I'm trying to connect the dots to where it makes us better.

 

So you are suggesting that we have a game day roster that features only 2 running backs (Cotton/Messam) and use the DI elsewhere?  Please correct this if I'm still not understanding you.

 

I will then explain why that doesn't really make us better.

 

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will?  Where's the face palm emoticon?  

 

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it?  If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense.  A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

 

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing.  My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster.  Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense.  Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

I am reading what you're typing.  I'm trying to connect the dots to where it makes us better.

 

So you are suggesting that we have a game day roster that features only 2 running backs (Cotton/Messam) and use the DI elsewhere?  Please correct this if I'm still not understanding you.

 

I will then explain why that doesn't really make us better.

 

expecting tburgess to justify his opinions in a way that makes sense is asking for too much. He prefers to get an idea in his head and stick with it no matter how your pick it apart. 

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will? Where's the face palm emoticon?

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it? If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense. A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing. My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster. Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense. Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

I am reading what you're typing. I'm trying to connect the dots to where it makes us better.

So you are suggesting that we have a game day roster that features only 2 running backs (Cotton/Messam) and use the DI elsewhere? Please correct this if I'm still not understanding you.

I will then explain why that doesn't really make us better.

expecting tburgess to justify his opinions in a way that makes sense is asking for too much. He prefers to get an idea in his head and stick with it no matter how your pick it apart.

hmmm...that sounds very familiar..........

 

 

At least Messam WAS relevant. What's Etienne's excuse that he's never been? Oh yeah, he isn't good enough. What a huge waste of a first round pick by Mack. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

Just going on a hunch here, but I bet you like re-runs too.

 

 

Try watching re-runs of Seinfeld and tell me they're not still funny! 

 

 

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will?  Where's the face palm emoticon?  

 

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it?  If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense.  A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

 

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing.  My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster.  Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense.  Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

I am reading what you're typing.  I'm trying to connect the dots to where it makes us better.

 

So you are suggesting that we have a game day roster that features only 2 running backs (Cotton/Messam) and use the DI elsewhere?  Please correct this if I'm still not understanding you.

 

I will then explain why that doesn't really make us better.

 

expecting tburgess to justify his opinions in a way that makes sense is asking for too much. He prefers to get an idea in his head and stick with it no matter how your pick it apart. 

 

I am gathering that given asking to conceptualize a specific example of Messam on our gameday roster making us a better team got a "where's the facepalm emoticon" response, but I will continue to try.

 

I would not be disappointed or even surprised if Messam ended up here.  I have no inside knowledge of OShea's plans, but given what I've seen and heard so far, having 2 import RB's on the gameday roster fits with what I believe his plans to be.

 

OShea has to come up with realistic game scenarios to decide who will be the best combination of 44 players to have on his gameday roster.  Swapping Messam for Volny makes us better on paper only; in a real game situation Messam does not add much because he's not touching the ball much, just as Volny won't touch the ball much, if ever.  Feeling good about upgrading a player for the abilities he would not be using during the game does not make this team better.

 

I chose to ignore the part where he said they could DI Ford (using Ford in this example is tough because I know some don't care for his running style, but I want to put real names to this) behind Messam because of how ridiculous a suggestion it was, but if he really want to push the idea...sorry, I came up with 3 different scenarios that come out of this and they are all varying degrees of ridiculous.

 

As a first string running back Messam adds tremendous value to our ratio needs.  As a first string running back Messam may give us a terrible running game.  In that case we're better off having a 3rd NI receiver.  There's no value at all as a 3rd string running back, that's why every scenario previously suggested as realistic had him as a second string back.  But it still doesn't make us better.

I saying Messam is better than Volny, all the stats pretty much prove it, and that by itself makes him an upgrade.  

 

I'm saying Messam is a valid game day backup for our starting RB and Volny isn't.  We almost  have to carry a second import RB and DI them unless we sign Messam because there are no other NI RB's available who can fill the backup RB role.  The big difference is that we have a choice if we hire Messam.

 

I'm saying Messam gives us a different type of back who would be a change of pace and could handle the short yardage runs, which would give him more touches than Volny gets so he'd be able to make more of a contribution.

 

All of the above make Messam valuable, both on paper and in game situations.  

 

I'm not saying Messam is a huge difference maker who'll win games on his own.  I'm saying he is an NI upgrade and we need all the NI upgrades we can find.

 

 

 

Specific examples of something that hasn't happened and likely never will? Where's the face palm emoticon?

Make up a fictional depth chart that has Ford as the DI, then you base your argument on it? If we were to hire Messam, we wouldn't need to DI Ford, but we still could if it made sense. A returner/receiver or a returner/DB would make more sense as a DI if we could adequately back up our starting RB with Messam.

You are obviously not reading what I'm typing. My scenario is Messam replacing Volny on the roster. Rostering 2 NI backup RB's makes no sense. Short of a break out year from Volny, we will be actively trying to replace him in the off season anyway.

I am reading what you're typing. I'm trying to connect the dots to where it makes us better.

So you are suggesting that we have a game day roster that features only 2 running backs (Cotton/Messam) and use the DI elsewhere? Please correct this if I'm still not understanding you.

I will then explain why that doesn't really make us better.

expecting tburgess to justify his opinions in a way that makes sense is asking for too much. He prefers to get an idea in his head and stick with it no matter how your pick it apart.

hmmm...that sounds very familiar..........

 

are you getting a little hot under the collar?

  I'm saying he is an NI upgrade and we need all the NI upgrades we can find.

except that he really doesn't serve a purpose on the roster... we don't need a NI rb who can play rb so Messam doesn't help the ratio much at all. Volny may not be a great special teamer but seems to me he actually plays them unlike Messam so what value does that guy actually hold? not like he's going to be a starter for us and allow us to use an import at another position or anything. This is all about some of you seeing a name you recognize and figuring it's a great idea to bring him in. 

Cotton and probably Ford will be out for week one so the question is Grigsby vs Messam. Messam is Canadian and a better RB so we should sign him.

 

 

 

At least Messam WAS relevant. What's Etienne's excuse that he's never been? Oh yeah, he isn't good enough. What a huge waste of a first round pick by Mack. Unbelievable.

 

 

 

Just going on a hunch here, but I bet you like re-runs too.

 

 

Try watching re-runs of Seinfeld and tell me they're not still funny! 

 

Love Seinfeld. 

The one unknown with Messam is what he would expect to sign for.   If he is looking for at or around 100k, then that is too much for a backup Canadian who doesn't play special teams.

 

It isn't always as easy as saying that he would be an upgrade over Volny so sign him.    The salary cap also has to be managed and factored in.

 

The argument will of course be that if he doesn't get any other offers, he will sign cheap.  Not necessarily true at his age and where he is in his career.

If we are going to DI a RB then signing Messam wouldn't make as much sense. He's still an upgrade on Volny however.

The point we're trying to make is that if you sign Messam you don't have to DI Ford and he is actually valuable because we have no other backs who can pound it like him...

Also if we had Messam as our game day back up, we could DI a returner like Woods, and have a DL, LB, and DB all as di's as well.

Basically it adds a lot more versatility to the roster, because Messam is a GOOD Canadian RB.

If you prefer Ford to Woods on returns then that's fine, Messam still is a hell of a lot more valuable then Carl Volny no matter which way you slice it.

The one unknown with Messam is what he would expect to sign for.   If he is looking for at or around 100k, then that is too much for a backup Canadian who doesn't play special teams.

 

It isn't always as easy as saying that he would be an upgrade over Volny so sign him.    The salary cap also has to be managed and factored in.

 

The argument will of course be that if he doesn't get any other offers, he will sign cheap.  Not necessarily true at his age and where he is in his career.

Wasn't his contract with Montreal in the 80k range... If he's looking for anything more than that he will be unemployed longer than he expects

Messam = 80K 

League Minimum = 50K

Volny = >50K

Max diff = 30K

Messam = 80K

League Minimum = 50K

Volny = >50K

Max diff = 30K

Oh come on, this is a good debate, let's not ruin it with pretend salaries. We have no idea what anyone makes.

If we are going to DI a RB then signing Messam wouldn't make as much any sense.

 

Which looks like the plan.  And having thought about the plan, I understand it and agree with it.

 

He's still an upgrade on Volny however.

 

I think the only person who would argue that is his mother.

 

And Volny might be standing behind her going "mom - shhhhhhhh".

 

The point we're trying to make is that if you sign Messam you don't have to DI Ford and he is actually valuable because we have no other backs who can pound it like him...

 

Another Joe Smith is easy enough to get if we want him.

 

No, we wouldn't have to DI Ford.  OShea isn't DI-ing Ford because he feels forced to, he's DI-ing Ford because he wants to.  At least within the confines of the team we currently have.

 

Also if we had Messam as our game day back up, we could DI a returner like Woods, and have a DL, LB, and DB all as di's as well.

 

There's the rub - all these defensive DI's don't improve our defense.  Every time a DI goes in another import comes out.  Every time.  This is what I'm saying; Messam being better than Volny is irrelevant because adding Messam doesn't make the Bombers better.  Injuries are always a wild card.  Right now we have more NI depth in our secondary than I can recall in a long time.  Ever?  OShea is going to take advantage of that.  The secondary probably does not get a DI.  Not every positional group gets to have a DI backup in the CFL.  You pick your poison.  OShea doesn't want his poison to be an ineffective offence.

 

 

Basically it adds a lot more versatility to the roster, because Messam is a GOOD Canadian RB.

 

He's been cut a few times now, so how good he is must be pretty debatable, no one cuts a good NI RB.

 

Here's what adds the most versatility to the roster.

- Don't sign Messam.

- Cut Volny.

- DI whichever RB.

- Keep the best NI special teams player you can find in Volny's roster spot.

- Pray our starting RB and his backup never both get injured in the same game (has only happened once that I can remember in 30some years of watching the Bombers).

- Accept the Pontbriand will play the last quarter of football as RB if lightning strikes twice.  It's not even a bad compromise.  He has decent hands and no one covers him.

 

None of this has ever been an argument for Volny.  Why would anyone make that argument?  The only argument is that Messam doesn't help the Bombers.

 

 

If you prefer Ford to Woods on returns then that's fine, Messam still is a hell of a lot more valuable then Carl Volny no matter which way you slice it.

 

My expectation is that the Bombers will have multiple guys handling returns as they have had for many years, but someone will see the bulk of the work.  It might be Ford, but that's not the reason for DI-ing him.  The reason for giving him a DI spot (or Grigsby) is to not have an impotent offence that flounders and gets it's kinda-rookie QB killed.  It's to have an offence that can create and sustain drives, rather than stall over and over.  How has the offence looked so far?  I'm going to throw out effective as my adjective of choice.

 

Take note of all the complaints there has been about our offensive coordinator so far this month.  I can't recall one.  Most of Bomber nation was disgusted when he was hired, and I'm sure they'd be pretty quick to point out all the failings of his offence.  So far, no takers.

 

Using a DI spot on a RB seems to be a pretty good plan, since giving Willy the best possible chance to succeed in this offence seems like a pretty good plan.  And if we use a DI spot on a RB, which is a plan I like based on a concept I like, then having Messam anywhere on our roster is largely a wasted roster spot.

 

If he was good enough to be a starter he would have tremendous value, just like he did when...he was a starter.  Otherwise, he doesn't make any kind of positive contribution to our ratio woes.  Unless we commit to having 6 NIs on offence and put the rotation there instead of on defence, a rotation featuring Messam, Goossen, and Feoli-G.  That has value in terms of positively affecting our ratio, but has negative value in terms of giving Willy the best possible chance to succeed.  OShea seems to be giving that the higher priority.  When Goossen is good enough, they will just stick him in.  No rotation.

 

There are no points you have raised that I haven't considered.  I have given them ample consideration and followed them thru to their logical conclusions.  The end result comes back to Messam being better is not the same thing as Messam makes the Bombers better.  Just like everyone else, when Messam popped free my thought was "Messam - I recognize that name! Sign him!".

 

Having him back up our starting RB and DI-ing a DB weakens the offence relative to one of our imports handling the job, and this is an offence that already features starters that get bitched about all the time like Morley and Neufeld.  The offence is a pretty fragile ecosystem.  Give it the best possible chance to thrive.  That is what OShea is doing.

 

Also note - not showing up anywhere in my argument:

- Volny's value to this team.

- Messam's salary.