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The 30, and the (d)evolution of our front scheme.

JY has lead us to running a 30 base front in our defense, but we also saw large changes to our scheme in 2023 as well. I've seen confusion and angst towards the front in many GDTs and else where on line. So I wanted to start this separate discussion around our front, mainly the changes we've made the past couple of years, and why we have gotten less and less pressure since 2021. 

First I'll throw in a rudimentary break down of the alignments and techniques.  

          5-4-4i-3- 2-2i-1-0-1-2i -2 -3-4i-4-5                  DL technique

   TE      LT        LG        C        RG        RT       TE        Position 

D     C         B         A        A          B          C      D     Gap identification

Note obviously the TE is used sparingly in the cfl, though heavy sets are becoming more popular with 6ol, its mainly academic having them in as most defenses don't have DL who play a counter role to that other than in short yardage.  Down south they also have Techs 6/7/9. With 6 lining up right on the TE, 7 on the inside shoulder of the TE, and 9 outside the TE. An 8 tech comes in when a team lines up a 6th OL beside a TE, also a short yardage type of set. You also see a Wide 9 alignment down south which is generally an even front, where the edge is far outside the furthest blocker on his side. 

The i alignment means inside shade, and has the DL lining up inside shoulder to out side shoulder on the opposing linemen. So a 1 and a 3 tech are right in the gap equally between the two OL, a 2i and 4i line up half in the gap and half on a linemen. 

Roles:

0 Tech = nose tackle/nose guard. Their primary role is to push the Centre back, and create pressure opportunities for other linemen. They almost allways draw a double team when executed right, and good ones will play both A gaps (2 gap player.) They generally push the centre to one side to body block it, and if the rb comes to the gap they are standing in, will disengage to make a tackle. These are your Stoves, Drake Nevis' etc. Most often, a 0 tech is seen in 30 fronts. in a 40 front, you see more 1 tech play. 

1 Tech. Similar role to a nose, but plays only 1 gap in the run scheme. generally a guy doesn't need to be as much of a thumper or as heavy to play the 1 vs the 0. Its more common in 40 fronts, where you might use 1, with a 3, or a 2i. An advantage of shading the nose vs playing straight up is it can be easier to twist with the DT in a 2/2i alignment, and vs 5 man blocking fronts it basically prevents the offense from doubling your End on the shade side. So if Woods is in 1 alignment, and Adams is in the 3, where ever willy jefferson lines up on that side, hes sure to only be facing 1 ol. Woods is smaller than our previous noses and is really good at both that and 1 tech. But we generally use 1/0 interchangeably. 

2i/2 These are the most common alignments in a 40 front, This is primarily a run stopping tech, unless twisting with another DL. Or some times it will be paired with a 1 shade to the other side of the line, in order for the 2/2i to shoot the gap in pass rush, or when the centre/guard is slow/sloppy with footwork and crossing the face of the guard alone creates pressure. 

3 Tech, the inside pass rusher. Mainly this player will shot a single gap with the goal of creating pressure/disruption and making a play. Casey sayles is a good example of a 3tech. Lighter than most DT, but heavier than a DE. A bullrusher with a single gap in the run gap, but who mostly plays the same on every snap. Beat the guard, inside or out, get in the back field and tear things up. Usually a good 30 front team will have 1 or 2 3 techs. 2 3 tech guys with a nose tackle. This is often what happens when you see a 30 front get a sack. The tackles pinch in to help, but you can only block soo long before one of the interior get home. Either the nose is getting a 1v1, or one of the 3s gets a free pass to the qb. When successful a tackle is often left upright and unable to get in on the play. 

4i. The other common end alignment in a 30 front. This is generally more of a run stopping alignment with a primary goal of turning a rb side ways and denying the B gap. This position does not start in the gap as much as a 2i generally. They tend to scrape into the gap and play that spot no matter the blocking scheme. Previously we used Jonathon Kongbo with great success in the 4i alignment. 

4/5 Tech. A 4 tech alignment is often more of a bull rusher in the cfl, like jackson jeffcoat, or you might use a 4 when you send a blitz (like our DB delay off the edge package) off their side. 5 tech is the prototypical pass rushing spot, think Willy jefferson on most of his edge snaps. 

We havent made a ton of use of wide alignments, forcing the Tackle to reach and possibly over commit to the end. It is also a bit dependent on the pass rushers moves. Our ends currently mainly try to curl around the edge of the tackle, rather than trying to sprint on a dart. We have seen some of that play from Montreal, and BC in the past. 

 

 In the earlies mafia days we started bringing in, and excelled at finding, Nose tackles. We pretty much fit our DL scheme around the nose. Often in 0, or some times a 1 tech, with a 3 tech DT and 2 4/5s. In 19 we used nevis and stove with jake rotating inside, two guys capable of playing nose and 2 guys who could play 3 tech. We let Nevis walk in 21, and stove missed a chunk of the season, so we let him walk in the off season of 21. Late in 21 we started working in more Cheetah front as well. where all the guys put on the DL can all pass rush especially with speed. Some times this would include stove on the nose with 3 des, other times it would be 4 Des with hansen, kongbo, jeffcoat, and willy, or 30 fronts with 3 of those guys on, often with willy on the nose. Though willy aligned on the nose in this front, he mainly played like a 3 tech, trying to shoot the inside gap on the centre. This is especially effective if the OL gap spread is wider than normal, or if you have a good combination of a quick end and a slow/sloppy centre. 

At the end of 21 we let stove walk, and made another wholesale change to the strategy of our front. We put jake at a 1/0 tech frequently, with casey sayles playing a 3 tech, and willy/JJ on the 4/5. It was kind of a hybrid from our cheetah pack, with the goal of jake drawing a double and forcing teams to block the other 3 one on one. But Jeffcoat missed almost half the season and dipped in his production. 

22 Ended and again we let our prized FA dl walk, casey sayles left, with the spot filled internally by Ricky walker. We moved walker around a lot in 23, tried him in the 3 tech spot to modest success, then as the extra end rotating inside out, this to more success. But still the interior was a fraction of the force it was with stove, and sayles etc. JJ and WJ enjoyed a good year doing the same as usual, but better and a bit healthier. Cam lawson took a big step forward as the rotational piece, providing us with the most impact in the fewest snaps along the interior.

But JJ still missed a good chunk with age catching up and we let him go in the off season of 23, also letting walker go. Lawson has missed all of this year to date, and we have tried to again fill the gaps internally with garbutt and habba, to very little success. This year we saw the largest shake up on our DL in a few years, between loses and the change to much more 30 front. We've had success with Adams and Woods, but both have seen stints on the PR sitting behind Jake, garbutt and habba. We've at times tried garbutt and habba in 3, 4, and 5 techs. Habba has been worse than his limited play last year and garbutt not much better. Jake has deteriorated to a fraction of his former self, and WJ has struggled with oppressive double teams killing his drive and his motor. 

We also got away from the no-thrill-for-bighill package that certainly shortened his career. Frequently sending Biggie on a "blitz" into a guard to try and force on on ones for willy. It seldom succeeded, as Jake doesn't demand double teams in side. And bighill rarely got pressure or disruption in the face of 300lbs guards. 

We have seem glimpses of all import 30 fronts, with woods at 0, Adams at 4i/3 and WJ in 4i/4/5 alignments. Which has done a tremendous job of creating pressure and closing gaps. Hopefully this is more of what we will see in the future, especially next year. We could easily succeed and disrupt the back field with that unit and a rotation including a healthy lawson, a second year Hubert, and the better of habba/garbutt or a new end. We could weave in 40 fronts with mainly different guys playing different alignments. Hubert could play some 3 tech, lawson 0 through 3, and adams just about any where. 

Those snaps have been far too few though, as our once vaunted pressure packed front has gone from the forefront of our defensive scheming, to an after thought. JY has done a tremendous job with the secondary, and limiting the bleeding of wasted snaps with edges who cant get pressure and blitzes that only waste a man. Taking the DL front to the next level is the key to our long term success on D, as we saw in the LDC, you can always get openings and create offence in the CFL if you have time to pass. 

 

 

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  • JY has lead us to running a 30 base front in our defense, but we also saw large changes to our scheme in 2023 as well. I've seen confusion and angst towards the front in many GDTs and else where on li

  • JohnnyAbonny
    JohnnyAbonny

    Get this man a job at 3DN yesterday 

  • I'm more  concerned about Leake..and co. Ripping us a new arsehole if we continue a 3 man front with Jake on the nose...or those sets with him and Schmeck together...that's where we will get killed

Featured Replies

2 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Except basically no one runs a 3-4 in Canada. What we are running on 2nd down is basically 3-1 and 3-0. The 1 backer is frequently spying the qb/rb and playing a shallow zone. 
 The argos mid 2ks bend but don’t break 30 defence was the closest thing, playing a 3-3 at times. But even then they played a lot of match zone quarters which is excellent at defending the deep shot. 

Fair enough... Rushing 3 = Double moves + Deep Shots.  Better?

you give a qb enough time and someone will be open

47 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Fair enough... Rushing 3 = Double moves + Deep Shots.  Better?

Not really, Bombers really try and take away the deep shot regardless. There's more room for the quick stuff underneath IMO. Which Harris is always happy to take. You're really relying on Jones to get his hands on passes as he did a couple times late in the game.

17 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Guessing both are done. Lawson coming back will be a big help. Hubert was very solid early, they like schmeck and are hooked on Jake. Plus we have Samson on the pr who is a legit prospect. 

When you say they’re done, do you mean they’ve moved on from football or are going to wait until next season in the hopes of getting more $$$?

id sure like if the Bombers could sign one of Kongbo/MBennett for dline depth to finish the season.

 

 

 

 

  • Author
18 minutes ago, Squeakers and Skippy said:

you give a qb enough time and someone will be open

 

54 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Fair enough... Rushing 3 = Double moves + Deep Shots.  Better?

If offences know they are going to have time to throw week after week, eventually they will find ways to beat you. Then other teams will replicate it. 
 

1 minute ago, wpgallday1960 said:

When you say they’re done, do you mean they’ve moved on from football or are going to wait until next season in the hopes of getting more $$$?

id sure like if the Bombers could sign one of Kongbo/MBennett for dline depth to finish the season.

 

 

 

 

both moving on from playing imo. I would still like either if they have any thing left to give. Especially Kongbo. 

21 hours ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

Don't remember 100% but was he not expected to be out all season and possibly into the beginning of next year?

Him and Schoen both I believe. 
 

On 2024-09-06 at 12:01 PM, 17to85 said:

So what? They don't NEED it. But they forced it and kept more impactful imports on the sidelines to fit it.

Of course they need it.  They could've done the tired old, we must play a Canadian at Safety, instead they went with one at CB and SLB.

What import has been more impactful than Ford. 

Kramdi has been a top 3 SLB in the league this year.  He's third in the league for tackles for loss.  He's second in sacks for his position.  Teams tend to throw away from his zone.

Edited by CrazyCanuck89

2 hours ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Of course they need it.  They could've done the tired old, we must play a Canadian at Safety, instead they went with one at CB and SLB.

What import has been more impactful than Ford. 

Kramdi has been a top 3 SLB in the league this year.  He's third in the league for tackles for loss.  He's second in sacks for his position.  Teams tend to throw away from his zone.

Point <-----

 

 

 

 

-----> you.

The point is they don't need to play Jake Thomas and Schmekle all the god damned time to play patty cake with the OL and keep impactful guys like Adams on the PR because they have Ford and kramdi on D already. 

We face a very different opponent next week. Edm. with Tre Ford, very athletic scrambling QB, who will hold the ball or take off and run unlike Harris. Edm. also has a few pretty darn good-looking RB's and IMO at least a more aggressive arguably better O-line than Sask.

I am really excited to see what we do for this game, the 3 front worked and we pulled out two wins against Harris primarily using it.....I am not sure a three front would be the best to deploy against Edm.....but perhaps a 3 front with a heavier LB set....

9 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

We face a very different opponent next week. Edm. with Tre Ford, very athletic scrambling QB, who will hold the ball or take off and run unlike Harris. Edm. also has a few pretty darn good-looking RB's and IMO at least a more aggressive arguably better O-line than Sask.

I am really excited to see what we do for this game, the 3 front worked and we pulled out two wins against Harris primarily using it.....I am not sure a three front would be the best to deploy against Edm.....but perhaps a 3 front with a heavier LB set....

They won't have to worry about Ford throwing the ball much, but run stopping is going to be a huge factor in this game, if Brown and Leake break through to the secondary it's going to be hard to stop them from gaining massive yards, plus opening the field up for Ford to scramble.  Buck better figure out how to put at least 30 points up on the board minimum, cause they're going to need them.

  • Author
7 hours ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Of course they need it.  They could've done the tired old, we must play a Canadian at Safety, instead they went with one at CB and SLB.

What import has been more impactful than Ford. 

Kramdi has been a top 3 SLB in the league this year.  He's third in the league for tackles for loss.  He's second in sacks for his position.  Teams tend to throw away from his zone.

Kramdi isn’t a top 3 Sam in the league. Tfl and sacks are not primary success indicators. You’re also talking about the difference of 1 sack over 14 games. 
 We use Kramdi in the off tackle gap run fit, and blitz him which very few teams do. We have used that look for a long time, and tbh Nichols is drastically better at it. Kramdi isn’t a top 3 Sam on our team. 
 
His coverage has improved since the early season struggles, he’s not some big issue that needs to be fixed like Thomas. We can generally cover for him. But he isn’t a strength. He’s a role player making elite db money. 
 Ol, and Dl are much bigger issues we should fix ratio wise. 
 

 

4 hours ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

We face a very different opponent next week. Edm. with Tre Ford, very athletic scrambling QB, who will hold the ball or take off and run unlike Harris. Edm. also has a few pretty darn good-looking RB's and IMO at least a more aggressive arguably better O-line than Sask.

I am really excited to see what we do for this game, the 3 front worked and we pulled out two wins against Harris primarily using it.....I am not sure a three front would be the best to deploy against Edm.....but perhaps a 3 front with a heavier LB set....

we’ve used our Mac to spy plenty in the dime set. I imagine we will do a 2 man spy game with both when the Mac is on / if a rb stays in other wise we will spy with 1. The big key will be to maintain contain on the edge. It should be easy enough for them to execute than getting pressure. I’d put Hubert back on, take Habba off for Adams. Hubert is more assignment sound in contain by a lot, as is garbutt. 
 I’d use stunts, pinch, jam, and slides to move the gap for him to run through around. Especially to take the gap away from the middle when we don’t have spy or have the 30 front out. 
 It’d also pair well to create that hole on the blind side edge and send the db blitz package while rotating the lber and secondary to cover for it. 

4 hours ago, Fatty Liver said:

They won't have to worry about Ford throwing the ball much, but run stopping is going to be a huge factor in this game, if Brown and Leake break through to the secondary it's going to be hard to stop them from gaining massive yards, plus opening the field up for Ford to scramble.  Buck better figure out how to put at least 30 points up on the board minimum, cause they're going to need them.

100%. We can play more aggressive gap cancellation, we just need to not get caught up in run blitzing thing and give up big plays on easy passes. 

On 2024-09-06 at 7:21 AM, Bubba Zanetti said:

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

I believe he has retired. Hasn't played since 2021 & had two achilles injuries back to back. One while rehabbing to come back. 

They do have to worry about the pass. If Ford is benched them MBT comes in & is capable of throwing for 250-300 yards in a half. The Elks will be a tough team to defend as the Bombers will have to be ready for both qbs. 

Edited by SpeedFlex27

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

They do have to worry about the pass. If Ford is benched them MBT comes in & is capable of throwing for 250-300 yards in a half. The Elks will be a tough team to defend as the Bombers will have to be ready for both qbs. 

Good point. MBT has a history of carving up our D - but the current secondary is a cut above.

  • Author
1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I believe he has retired. Hasn't played since 2021 & had two achilles injuries back to back. One while rehabbing to come back. 

They do have to worry about the pass. If Ford is benched them MBT comes in & is capable of throwing for 250-300 yards in a half. The Elks will be a tough team to defend as the Bombers will have to be ready for both qbs. 

I’d rather over pay dl than most positions. Especially a 2gap player. Run fits are soo much tighter in the cfl than down south. 
 

qft, nothing is more worrisome as a bomber fan then a qb coming off the bench. We’ve been torched sooooo many times by back ups over the years. 
 

3 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Good point. MBT has a history of carving up our D - but the current secondary is a cut above.

I would actually love to see the chess match of our secondary vs mbt as the starter. 

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I would actually love to see the chess match of our secondary vs mbt as the starter. 

Yep, that'd be my idea of a good time.

We’d have beaten Toronto in the cup if MBT didn’t get hurt so not overly concerned there. 

6 minutes ago, Goalie said:

We’d have beaten Toronto in the cup if MBT didn’t get hurt so not overly concerned there. 

And the time before that when we lost to Toronto it was Arbuckle carving us up.

Im more concerned with MBT's ancestors. If they show up to help were in trouble.

14 hours ago, Booch said:

I'm more  concerned about Leake..and co. Ripping us a new arsehole if we continue a 3 man front with Jake on the nose...or those sets with him and Schmeck together...that's where we will get killed

Yea Leake and company have really stepped up for the Elks. Good move by them profiling Leake as more than a returner. It's paying off opening up more options for MBT.

  • Author
3 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Yea Leake and company have really stepped up for the Elks. Good move by them profiling Leake as more than a returner. It's paying off opening up more options for MBT.

I expect adams and maybe hubert will draw back in and an imp db will go off. Even with jake taking too many reps, if Garbutt, adams and woods are on for most of the run plays edm won't have a ton of success. I also expect we will have nichols cover the out side run fit on his edge again. 

Too bad we don't still have a bigger Lber who can come on to help gap cancel. Any of Gemmel, Petrishen, Moses, and Thomas would look darn good against Edmonton. 

On 2024-09-06 at 8:44 AM, Booch said:

I can see the angle of the "seen that done that" view...that being said when yu no longer have the ability or the athletic skill any more to react to it...let alone make an impactful play then you become a serious liability...he can't do that no more, for 2+ yrs now really so it's really counter productive now and just delays the development of a younger giy with upside...we have more than enough vet depth and athletic guys to compensate for not rostering Thomas...

Havn't seen enough of Schmeck this yr....but I only see him as being a nice depth piece...but not a stalwart starter by any stretch...I see way more upside in Samson, and even skill at this oint...but he is the new guy here and as history has shown with our staff....many instances have used tenure/vet status/favorite to trump talent and upside

I agree tho...Lawson when back will be thatCanadian stalwart and would have already been that if he didnt have to play second fiddle to Thomas based on my previous comment...he was head and shoulders better 2 yrs ago already, but for 2025 him as the defacto Candadian DT/Nose and Samson taking theSchmeck spot with Adams and Woods rounding out the interior...we are looking pretty solid...and that's not even factoring in this coming draft....who we dig up scouting, and free agency

We seriously need to do whatever it takes...trade...free agency or bring in the number of bodies like we have before with DB'sfor a pure edge rusher to really set us up...and then keep whoever takes the 3rd end spot outta Haba and Garbutt

 

I would expect the Bombers are preparing for the upcoming off season where as we are Grey Cup hosts in 2025 to aggrssively upgrade our team on both sides of the ball on the LOS & at LB. As well as punt & KO return on ST's. We may see turnover at the qb position. If not QB1 then QB2. 

On 2024-09-11 at 9:07 AM, CrazyCanuck89 said:

Of course they need it.  They could've done the tired old, we must play a Canadian at Safety, instead they went with one at CB and SLB.

What import has been more impactful than Ford

Kramdi has been a top 3 SLB in the league this year.  He's third in the league for tackles for loss.  He's second in sacks for his position.  Teams tend to throw away from his zone.

I think you could make a case for Terrell Bonds... that guy has been lights out this year... how do we know he's been good?... he is NEVER mentioned during a game... teams simply don't throw at him.... Ford is having a great year and the stats back it up... but there's a reason quarterbacks challenge Ford much more than they challenge Bonds...

16 minutes ago, bearpants said:

I think you could make a case for Terrell Bonds... that guy has been lights out this year... how do we know he's been good?... he is NEVER mentioned during a game... teams simply don't throw at him.... Ford is having a great year and the stats back it up... but there's a reason quarterbacks challenge Ford much more than they challenge Bonds...

Yrah Bonds has been real good

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