Looking Ahead: Montreal Vs Winnipeg

[White Out]

I like MOS as a person, he seems a hard working genuine man. But I don`t think hes a good coach and I also cant stand his deer in headlights, **** eating grin after things begin imploding. 

[Blueandgold]

11 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

thats quite the leap my friend.  I've seen some embarrassing players in blue and gold jerseys and Kuale, while not very good, was not nearly the worst we have fielded. 

As far as players who've continousally started go, I'd have Kuale right up there with Marcus and Marcel Smith from the 2005 Bombers.  

[SPuDS]

16 minutes ago, Blueandgold said:

As far as players who've continousally started go, I'd have Kuale right up there with Marcus and Marcel Smith from the 2005 Bombers.  

also brett ralph was one that came to mind to me.

[TBURGESS]

1 hour ago, SPuDS said:

He was a rookie HC, does anyone give that any consideration? How about the tire fire that he inherited from the time he was named HC?  As for his coordinators, who would you have picked over the guys he currently has on his staff (from the guys that were available, no pipe dreams..)  you can't just look at his record and go "Oh, hes complete garbage!"  you have to look at all the variables in place..

Hes also steadily improved since he was brought in.  he hasn't jaded the fan base nor the media like others have.. he has players wanting to play for him and going to battle for him..  I'm simply astounded I need to explain this to people lol.   

 

but by all means, O'shea detractors can continue to base their opinions off of some myopic, one-dimensional stat line..

Of course he inherited a bad team, but so did Trestman and he's turned Toronto around in the first third of his first season. I don't give O'Shea a mulligan for being a rookie HC. You ought to be able to do the job you get. 

I don't like the first round of coordinators at all and I don't much like the passive PLAP or Hall all that much better. There's a reason we constantly start slow and give up late drives.

O'Shea hasn't steadily improved. In fact he had more wins in his first season than his second and we absolutely stunk in the first third of his third season. O'Shea's had two thirds of a good season so far and many of the changes that sparked our turn around were forced on him by injuries. IMHO 2/3's of one season don't erase 2 1/3 bad seasons.

Being liked by your players is a horrible way to judge an HC. Jeff Freakin' Reinebolt was loved by his players too. It didn't make him any good at his job. Folks put way too much stock in what players say after they sign with any team. Would the players who say good things about O'Shea say good things bout any other HC they were playing for? Probably. Would they sign for more money on another team? Probably.

Wins is the number 1 way to judge an HC. I wish I could be astounded that I have to point that out, but...

 

[WBBFanWest]

1 hour ago, Blueandgold said:

Many people, myself included, wanted Loffler to start right out of the gate. Macho Harris was a terrible player who never should've been signed. 

Theres many more examples, such as Romby, Hurl & Greg Peach, of O'Shea sticking with players who aren't producing.

It's easy to want to start rookies, not sign veterans etc when you have no skin in the game.  Bet your yearly pay on it and see how quick you are to want to start an unproven rookie.  

[WBBFanWest]

10 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Of course he inherited a bad team, but so did Trestman and he's turned Toronto around in the first third of his first season. I don't give O'Shea a mulligan for being a rookie HC. You ought to be able to do the job you get. 

 

1

So you're comapring a rookie HC with Tresman... seems legit.

[TBURGESS]

12 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

So you're comapring a rookie HC with Tresman... seems legit.

So you're admitting that a proven HC is better than a rookie? 

[Jpan85]

36 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Of course he inherited a bad team, but so did Trestman and he's turned Toronto around in the first third of his first season. I don't give O'Shea a mulligan for being a rookie HC. You ought to be able to do the job you get. 

I don't like the first round of coordinators at all and I don't much like the passive PLAP or Hall all that much better. There's a reason we constantly start slow and give up late drives.

O'Shea hasn't steadily improved. In fact he had more wins in his first season than his second and we absolutely stunk in the first third of his third season. O'Shea's had two thirds of a good season so far and many of the changes that sparked our turn around were forced on him by injuries. IMHO 2/3's of one season don't erase 2 1/3 bad seasons.

Being liked by your players is a horrible way to judge an HC. Jeff Freakin' Reinebolt was loved by his players too. It didn't make him any good at his job. Folks put way too much stock in what players say after they sign with any team. Would the players who say good things about O'Shea say good things bout any other HC they were playing for? Probably. Would they sign for more money on another team? Probably.

Wins is the number 1 way to judge an HC. I wish I could be astounded that I have to point that out, but...

 

O'Shea was 5-1 in his first third of his first season let's see where Trestman is at the end of the year. He might have a 7-11 record like MOS did by the end of the year.

[WBBFanWest]

10 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

So you're admitting that a proven HC is better than a rookie? 

Of course.  I was not a fan of O'Shea's hiring.  I thought that a rookie GM hiring a rookie HC was a bad idea.  I knew that there would be some growing pains (at best) and we've had them.  But to compare O'Shea's first year with the Bombers to Tresman's first year back with Toronto is laughable.  

[17to85]

The big difference was Trestman stepped onto a Toronto team with future hall of fame qb Ricky Ray, Mike O'Shea stepped onto a team with absolutely no one at qb. 

[TBURGESS]

16 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

Of course.  I was not a fan of O'Shea's hiring.  I thought that a rookie GM hiring a rookie HC was a bad idea.  I knew that there would be some growing pains (at best) and we've had them.  But to compare O'Shea's first year with the Bombers to Tresman's first year back with Toronto is laughable.  

You start off so well then you say comparing Trestman to O'Shea laughable. How 'bout the first time Trestman came to the CFL. Took a team that was 8-10 the year before to the Grey Cup.

Jacques Chapdelaine went 4-2 after Popp went 3-9 last year as a rookie HC without a great QB (For 17).

Chris Jones went 12-6 in 2014 as a rookie HC, after they went 4-14 the year before.

Rick Campbell took a team that didn't exist to the Grey Cup in his second year and won it in his third year as a HC.

 

[17to85]

3 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

You start off so well then you say comparing Trestman to O'Shea laughable. How 'bout the first time Trestman came to the CFL. Took a team that was 8-10 the year before to the Grey Cup.

Jacques Chapdelaine went 4-2 after Popp went 3-9 last year as a rookie HC without a great QB (For 17).

Chris Jones went 12-6 in 2014 as a rookie HC, after they went 4-14 the year before.

Rick Campbell took a team that didn't exist to the Grey Cup in his second year and won it in his third year as a HC.

 

QB, QB, QB. 

blame Kyle Walters for not getting Mike O'Shea the qb he needs to do what some of those other coaches did. 

I dunno why you're bringin gup Chepdelaine anyway, that is clearly the dead cat bounce that every team gets when they change coaches midway though. 

[WBBFanWest]

13 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

You start off so well then you say comparing Trestman to O'Shea laughable. How 'bout the first time Trestman came to the CFL. Took a team that was 8-10 the year before to the Grey Cup.

Jacques Chapdelaine went 4-2 after Popp went 3-9 last year as a rookie HC without a great QB (For 17).

Chris Jones went 12-6 in 2014 as a rookie HC, after they went 4-14 the year before.

Rick Campbell took a team that didn't exist to the Grey Cup in his second year and won it in his third year as a HC.

 

Ya because all of the variables are more or less the same in all those examples.  I realize that you need to do the "Bombers suck compared to everyone else" schtick, but c'mon man, you can do better than that.

[Blueandgold]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

It's easy to want to start rookies, not sign veterans etc when you have no skin in the game.  Bet your yearly pay on it and see how quick you are to want to start an unproven rookie.  

Like Carmichael right?

 

Good players are good players and bad players are bad. I don't care if they're veterans like Kuale and Peach or a rookie like the Roc.

Edited July 27, 2017 by Blueandgold

[WBBFanWest]

Just now, Blueandgold said:

Like Carmichael right?

So let me get this straight, when a rookie starts and is immediately successful you say something like "I knew it.  I always wanted him to start."  But when a different rookie starts, one who seemed to generate a lot of excitement before the season, and then he struggles, you want to trot him out as an example of the problem with starting a rookie.  I don't recall you saying anything negative about him prior to the start of the season, how come?

And now that he does seem to be struggling, who would you play in his place?

[TBURGESS]

10 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

Ya because all of the variables are more or less the same in all those examples.  I realize that you need to do the "Bombers suck compared to everyone else" schtick, but c'mon man, you can do better than that.

I didn't say all the variables are more or less the same or that the Bombers suck or that everyone else doesn't. I simply gave 5 examples (Trestman twice) of new HC's taking bad teams and turning them around.  

 

27 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

QB, QB, QB. 

blame Kyle Walters for not getting Mike O'Shea the qb he needs to do what some of those other coaches did. 

I dunno why you're bringin gup Chepdelaine anyway, that is clearly the dead cat bounce that every team gets when they change coaches midway though. 

Calvillo was with Montreal, looking like he was done, before Trestman got there. Same holds true for Ray.

Reilly was in Edmonton putting up a disappointing 4-14 season before Jones took over.

You don't like Chapdelaine, so I'll throw in Austin who took a 6-12 team that already had Burris on it to the Grey Cup in his first year.

There you have 4 examples of QB's winning way more under the new coach than they were under the old coach. 

Ottawa out bid us for their QB's party because O'Shea actually believed that Willy was the right answer.

[WBBFanWest]

Just now, TBURGESS said:

I didn't say all the variables are more or less the same or that the Bombers suck or that everyone else doesn't. I simply gave 5 examples (Trestman twice) of new HC's taking bad teams and turning them around.  

 

Great.  Now give me a list of every new coach that hasn't been successful.  You might find that list to be a little bit longer.   

[Blueandgold]

22 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

So let me get this straight, when a rookie starts and is immediately successful you say something like "I knew it.  I always wanted him to start."  But when a different rookie starts, one who seemed to generate a lot of excitement before the season, and then he struggles, you want to trot him out as an example of the problem with starting a rookie.  I don't recall you saying anything negative about him prior to the start of the season, how come?

And now that he does seem to be struggling, who would you play in his place?

What I'm saying is quite simple, that you should play the better player. When a player is struggling and costing the team games he should no longer be in the lineup. I actually said very little about anyone prior to the season as I wasn't posting very much, and I have no problem with them giving Carmichael a shot. 

But, now he's been horrible and was repeatedly burned by Marco Iannuzzi last week to go along with his struggles in every other game to begin the year. 

Start Kevin Fogg, plain and simple. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by Blueandgold

[AKAChip]

Fogg is so much better than Lankford it's not even funny. 

[Mr Dee]

Kevin Fogg is definitely the better punt returner, but Lankford stepped up tonight..

[Goalie]

3 hours ago, Blueandgold said:

What I'm saying is quite simple, that you should play the better player. When a player is struggling and costing the team games he should no longer be in the lineup. I actually said very little about anyone prior to the season as I wasn't posting very much, and I have no problem with them giving Carmichael a shot. 

But, now he's been horrible and was repeatedly burned by Marco Iannuzzi last week to go along with his struggles in every other game to begin the year. 

Start Kevin Fogg, plain and simple. 

Fogg wasnt so good last season at HB.. B Johnson would help 

[Blueandgold]

50 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Fogg wasnt so good last season at HB.. B Johnson would help 

Great and better than Carmichael are two different things. At least they moved Carmichael to field corner tonight.

[blue_gold_84]

6 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

You start off so well then you say comparing Trestman to O'Shea laughable. How 'bout the first time Trestman came to the CFL. Took a team that was 8-10 the year before to the Grey Cup.*

*with solid depth, very good Canadian talent, Calvillo behind centre, and Jim Popp as the GM

Meanwhile, O'Shea inherited a 3-15 team with zero depth, no Canadian talent, and no QB. Oh, and rookie GM.

"Solid apples to apples comparison, though," said nobody ever.

[blue_gold_84]

5 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Ottawa out bid us for their QB's party because O'Shea actually believed that Willy was the right answer.

*citation missing*