Many a QB prospect has been ruined by being thrown to the wolves too soon. The best of prospects need a real team around them to develop properly , and here in Winnipeg, boy oh boy, have we ruined a lot of promising QBs. Its not that we have never in the last decade  found real prospect; we just permanently ruined their confidence. At least a couple of them would have developed into real QBs with a leading team ...

Or do you think that Jim Barker and Wally Buono have a  monopoly on unearthing starting CFL QBs?

Nichols and Willy are journeyman... the chances of either becoming CFL All-stars are low (but not impossible).

I for one believe that Dom Davis and Brian Bennett are legit QB prospects capable of becoming franchise players one day. But at the moment Bennett is on the 6 game IR and Davis is likely relegated to the number 3 spot for the forseeable future.

How do we finally get The Real Thing, our franchise QB of the future?

Do we have to outbid everybody for a Collaros, Harris or Reilly?

And could we ever do that here in Wholesale City?

No matter what we do in Winnipeg it will be the wrong thing.

Sign a guy in Free Agency?  Too expensive they will say.  Guy is unproven they will say.  

Try to develop a guy?  QB's want to play.  If they are attached to the bench for too long, they want a different environment.  Development always gets fast-tracked due to poor performances/losing teams, and then the QBs are usually thrown to the wolves.

The solution?  Sign someone undrafted out of the states. Let him sit and watch for 6 games, and then actually let him get in there.  Protect the hell out of him.  Give him a long leash.  Hope eventually something sticks.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

The question is, would you rather have the QB situation that Winnipeg has, with a viable backup and some hopefuls, or another carousel of never-beens and never-wasses.

The common theme in all the quarterbacks the Argos have developed is that they have sat and learned for 2-3 years. You dont develop quarterbacks by bringing in new 3rd and 4th guys every year.

21 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

The common theme in all the quarterbacks the Argos have developed is that they have sat and learned for 2-3 years. You dont develop quarterbacks by bringing in new 3rd and 4th guys every year.

This is true, same in Calgary. The benefit is they have an established, proven starter ahead of them to learn from and groom behind. They aren't rushed, save for injury, and when the starter returns the job is his again and the prospect gets relegated back to the backup role.

It's hard to groom a QB for the future when it's a constant carousel at the starter position.

There is also a consistent theme when it comes to teams and the ability to develop a QB - coaching. Calgary has had Huff and Dickenson on staff for what seems like an eternity and same with Barker and Milanovich in Toronto. A new regime wants to bring in their own guys and if we clean house every 2-3 years, chances are any leftover prospects will get flushed along with them.

Other than BLM, who have Huffer and Dickenson brought into the CFL? Tate was on Saskatchewan's PR, Glenn was a trade, Burris predates them.

Millanovich/Barker can claim Harris/Collaros/Gale

Not sure anyone wants to claim Gale yet...he looks pretty pedestrian.  

Some of his passes look like they were floating in a gale (force wind) ...

Edited August 2, 20169 yr by IC Khari

I expect that Davis should be able to compete for meaningful snaps at this time next year.

People forgot a key ingredient to develop a QB... you have to have a bonafide starting QB FIRST. Otherwise, young guys are forced to start (and thrown to the wolves) when the starting QB failed especially in Winnipeg where fans have a little patience and the #2 QB is always the popular guy .

1 hour ago, Jpan85 said:

The common theme in all the quarterbacks the Argos have developed is that they have sat and learned for 2-3 years. You don't develop quarterbacks by bringing in new 3rd and 4th guys every year.

If the #3 and #4 quarterbacks have shown little in practices, then yes, they do have to be replaced.  Pretty much every QB starting in the CFL had to work his way up. Some were fortunate enough to be in the right place at the right time to advance rapidly, but those are few.

2 hours ago, BigBlue said:

Many a QB prospect has been ruined by being thrown to the wolves too soon. The best of prospects need a real team around them to develop properly , and here in Winnipeg, boy oh boy, have we ruined a lot of promising QBs. Its not that we have never in the last decade  found real prospect; we just permanently ruined their confidence. At least a couple of them would have developed into real QBs with a leading team ...

Or do you think that Jim Barker and Wally Buono have a  monopoly on unearthing starting CFL QBs?

Nichols and Willy are journeyman... the chances of either becoming CFL All-stars are low (but not impossible).

I for one believe that Dom Davis and Brian Bennett are legit QB prospects capable of becoming franchise players one day. But at the moment Bennett is on the 6 game IR and Davis is likely relegated to the number 3 spot for the forseeable future.

How do we finally get The Real Thing, our franchise QB of the future?

Do we have to outbid everybody for a Collaros, Harris or Reilly?

And could we ever do that here in Wholesale City?

All 4 of our qbs have very similar skill sets. Above average athletes to good athlete. Good short to mid accuracy, lacks accuracy on deep balls, average arm strength scramble to throw types. All that nfl size and build. 

Davis is faster and the better passer between him and bennett. Davis at 27 isnt much younger then willy and nichols. But much less polished then either. He has the best up side of any of our passers, partially skewed by his being the fastest and best runner. He has to make some thing happen  quickly though. Very few qbs in the 28-29 range that have such little pro experience ever get any where. Might be too old to improve and make big strides.  A lesser bryan ahyat.

Bennett is young, but his fundamental poor throwing mechanics and lack of accuracy is probably not some thing fixable. Nfl considers passing mechanics and mentality to be mostly un coachable at that range. The guy has allready been a 4 year hs starter which is a very high level compared to most sports pre college levels. And then again in college. Think tim tebow.

I dont think either guy is what we need. Neither has the skill set or tools to evolve into an elite passer. Both have the ability to be play makers in limited action.

Edited August 2, 20169 yr by wbbfan

1 hour ago, M.O.A.B. said:

People forgot a key ingredient to develop a QB... you have to have a bonafide starting QB FIRST. Otherwise, young guys are forced to start (and thrown to the wolves) when the starting QB failed especially in Winnipeg where fans have a little patience and the #2 QB is always the popular guy .

Thats not really true. It takes the right coaching staff and pieces. But mostly the right qb. Ricky ray and jason maas didnt have that. Khari jones didnt have that. The current crop of good young qbs in the cfl have been thrown to the wolfs and become king of the jungle. 

1 hour ago, Blueandgold said:

I expect that Davis should be able to compete for meaningful snaps at this time next year.

This time next year he will be 28 and on his way to being 29. With 0 starts as a pro.  Chances he takes any major steps are beyond slim. 

15 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Thats not really true. It takes the right coaching staff and pieces. But mostly the right qb. Ricky ray and jason maas didnt have that. Khari jones didnt have that. The current crop of good young qbs in the cfl have been thrown to the wolfs and become king of the jungle. 

This time next year he will be 28 and on his way to being 29. With 0 starts as a pro.  Chances he takes any major steps are beyond slim. 

QBs that can step in immediately are the exception, not the rule.

Khari spent 3 years in BC behind Damon Allen before being traded to Winnipeg as an after thought. Khari was 29 (and a career backup) at that point in time and was traded to be the backup to Kerwin Bell. 

Maas spent a year as a backup before getting to be starter but he quickly lost that job to Ray when he got hurt.

Ray became a starter in his rookie season, but he is definitely the exception.

2 minutes ago, Rich said:

QBs that can step in immediately are the exception, not the rule.

Khari spent 3 years in BC behind Damon Allen before being traded to Winnipeg as an after thought. Khari was 29 (and a career backup) at that point in time and was traded to be the backup to Kerwin Bell. 

Maas spent a year as a backup before getting to be starter but he quickly lost that job to Ray when he got hurt.

Ray became a starter in his rookie season, but he is definitely the exception.

No it isnt. BLM, masoli, mike reilly, trevor harris, all stepped in. Its about the guys you bring up. Any american qb will need some time to learn the canadian game but sitting on the bench not playing for 3 years doesnt make you a better player. If you cant pick up the game from watching film, coaching and practice in the first year you arent quick enough mentally to cut it in this game.

Khari was a back up for 2 years, he wasnt an after thought. He was the core of the trade as taman was in BC and the guy that recruited him to the cfl. The trade of an allstar OL was not based around a depth pick in the draft back then.  The draft pick was an after thought. Sitting under damon allen who was a run first qb and a mediocre passer at that point didnt do him any great service. 

Maas spent a year as a back up, showing well in limited action as a rookie, with no vet teaching him in front of him. 

2 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

No it isnt. BLM, masoli, mike reilly, trevor harris, all stepped in. Its about the guys you bring up. Any american qb will need some time to learn the canadian game but sitting on the bench not playing for 3 years doesnt make you a better player. If you cant pick up the game from watching film, coaching and practice in the first year you arent quick enough mentally to cut it in this game.

Khari was a back up for 2 years, he wasnt an after thought. He was the core of the trade as taman was in BC and the guy that recruited him to the cfl. The trade of an allstar OL was not based around a depth pick in the draft back then.  The draft pick was an after thought. Sitting under damon allen who was a run first qb and a mediocre passer at that point didnt do him any great service. 

Maas spent a year as a back up, showing well in limited action as a rookie, with no vet teaching him in front of him. 

Reilly didn't show anything until his 3rd year in BC as a backup before starting in Edmonton.

 

Masoli is in his 4th year.  He had 68 attempts in the 3 years prior to this season.

BLM had 156 attempts over 2 seasons before becoming a regular starter.

Harris has 94 attempts in 3 years before his breakout season last year.

BLM sits for 2 years before he become as starter in 2014. 

Reilly was a backup for 3 yrs in BC. He became Esks full time starter in 2013.

Harris was a backup for 3 years in TO. He became as starter 2015. 

 

Masoli? He's not an elite QB yet. 

Just now, Rich said:

Masoli is in his 4th year.  He had 68 attempts in the 3 years prior to this season.

BLM had 156 attempts over 2 seasons before becoming a regular starter.

Harris has 94 attempts in 3 years before his breakout season last year.

BLM Showed flashes as a rookie in his limited action. In his 2nd year He got starts and was very productive. Its not like he was sitting and getting thrown in for garbage time and looked mediocre. 

Masoli had a big game in his 2nd year being pushed into action.

Trevor harris had to wait a long while to get a shot, but had a ton of promise and hype from his high level play in pre season. 

If you watched them play before they got a start and in the pre season they were ready. And mostly werent guys sitting under amazing qbs developing from them.  Thats why those guys, and guys like willy had a lot of expectations around them. As opposed to our two young guys currently. 

Getting stuck behind a better player doesnt mean you arent good. Ask geroy simon about that. 

5 minutes ago, M.O.A.B. said:

BLM sits for 2 years before he become as starter in 2014. 

Reilly was a backup for 3 yrs in BC. He became Esks full time starter in 2013.

Harris was a backup for 3 years in TO. He became as starter 2015. 

 

Masoli? He's not an elite QB yet. 

BLM came in and won games in his 2nd year and looked great. Reily was stuck but as soon as he got a start after 2 years he showed great. The same stuff he showed in pre season. Similar to harris. But harris even more so. 

Didnt say any of them are elite yet, but you look top to bottom in this league, you dont see qbs who take a ton of years to show promise. These guys could have been playing earlier very easily. 

These guys didnt come as bumpkins and over that time become some thing special. When your in your late 20s with little to no flashes no starts your chances of going any where are awful. 

If these guys were slowly developed youd see high starts low production years and a taper up. Not guys coming in off the bench being highly productive in their first starts. 

The original argument was it usually takes a QB 2 - 3 years as a backup before they can become regular starters, and you tried to make it look like there was a slew of QBs who come in right away and ready to be regular starters.   That just isn't true as the stats I mentioned with the current slew of starting QBs prove.

Ray and BLM are the possible exceptions, but most QBs take time a few years to learn the game.

Does that mean that Davis is guaranteed to become a successful starter?  No, but he has only dressed for 17 regular season games in which he has had 25 attempts and 10 rushes.  It is also too early to proclaim him a bust.

As for his age. he was 26 last year in his first CFL season which isn't that old when you consider college years and bouncing around the NFL.

4 minutes ago, Rich said:

The original argument was it usually takes a QB 2 - 3 years as a backup before they can become regular starters, and you tried to make it look like there was a slew of QBs who come in right away and ready to be regular starters.   That just isn't true as the stats I mentioned with the current slew of starting QBs prove.

Ray and BLM are the possible exceptions, but most QBs take time a few years to learn the game.

Does that mean that Davis is guaranteed to become a successful starter?  No, but he has only dressed for 17 regular season games in which he has had 25 attempts and 10 rushes.  It is also too early to proclaim him a bust.

As for his age. he was 26 last year in his first CFL season which isn't that old when you consider college years and bouncing around the NFL.

"People forgot a key ingredient to develop a QB... you have to have a bonafide starting QB FIRST."

What i responded to.

The nfl is harder on qbs and rookies start if they are high up side, and if they sit more then a year its a rarity. Sitting on the bench for 2-3 years does nothing to help the development of a football player. Like i said, and people around the cfl saw, these guys showed the flashes as soon as they got a chance, and played at a high level as soon as they got starts. Even before becoming the no1 starter.

Those guys, were also young. Davis, has been a pr/ fa bouncer most of his time as a pro. If im wrong and your right, he still hasnt had what those guys have.

Still 0 starts and in that same age range as the rest of those guys and our no1 no2 who both have several starts.

Davis last start was in 2011. Since then hes had garbage time in 2 pre season games. Do you see the difference?  Hes not where the "developed" qbs in the cfl were when they took starts, and is far older.  

in 2011 we finished first in the east, lulay, glenn, ac, and buck pierce, were running amok at qb back then. 

 

Quote

People forgot a key ingredient to develop a QB... you have to have a bonafide starting QB FIRST. Otherwise, young guys are forced to start (and thrown to the wolves) when the starting QB failed especially in Winnipeg where fans have a little patience and the #2 QB is always the popular guy .

You cherry picked the original quote and missed the bolded part.  The bolded part implies that a young QB needs time to watch and learn the game, which is the point people in this thread have been trying to make.

Then you went on to say that Davis is already too old, that he is practically 30 already in hasn't amount to anything.  Here are the first year stats of Masoli, Harris, and Davis.  All had 0 starts at this point as well.  Care to guess who is who?

Age	Completions	Attempts	Yards	TDs	Ints
26	8	19	80	0	0
26	16	25	169	0	0
25	21	45	293	1	3

I don't even think that Davis is going to amount to anything as a QB.  The odds are stacked against him, there are far more QBs that fizzle out and become nothing than those that become starters, but it is far too early to write him off.

24 minutes ago, Rich said:

Then you went on to say that Davis is already too old, that he is practically 30 already in hasn't amount to anything.  Here are the first year stats of Masoli, Harris, and Davis.  All had 0 starts at this point as well.  Care to guess who is who?

Age	Completions	Attempts	Yards	TDs	Ints
26	8	19	80	0	0
26	16	25	169	0	0
25	21	45	293	1	3

Is it

Harris

Davis

Masoli

27 minutes ago, Rich said:

You cherry picked the original quote and missed the bolded part.  The bolded part implies that a young QB needs time to watch and learn the game, which is the point people in this thread have been trying to make.

Then you went on to say that Davis is already too old, that he is practically 30 already in hasn't amount to anything.  Here are the first year stats of Masoli, Harris, and Davis.  All had 0 starts at this point as well.  Care to guess who is who?

Age	Completions	Attempts	Yards	TDs	Ints
26	8	19	80	0	0
26	16	25	169	0	0
25	21	45	293	1	3

I don't even think that Davis is going to amount to anything as a QB.  The odds are stacked against him, there are far more QBs that fizzle out and become nothing than those that become starters, but it is far too early to write him off.

No, i didnt. young qbs starting isnt a bad thing at all. We have a ton of young qbs now where as a few years ago when half the teams in the league lacked good qbs we had tons of old qbs. 

Your still missing the point. Thats those guys were close to two years younger and further ahead. Thats massive. They are guys with developed passing game. Davis bounced due to school issues to a small school where he played 2 years. And 1 year, his last was bad. Much worse then the first year he was an actual starter. 

Im not saying hes useless or worthless. Im saying he isnt the qb of the future and has little hope to be.

27 2 years of starting since he HS. 1 bad.

Masoli was a three year starter and is a cfl starter NOW. He's 27

trevor harris was a 4 year starter and is starting NOW. He's 30, but by far the most established of all these guys.

When he was  davis age he came in showed brilliant and the next year picked up the same level of play replacing ray.

Davis is 27 has only played preseason garbage where he was average-good nothing special. Hasnt had a sniff since college. And only had 1 good year at college. Hes too raw for his age. 

willy is a year and a half older but 3 years ago he went 5-1 to start as our starter. 

Davis cant crack 2nd string on a bad team where as the other guys were no2 well before this point for davis. His raw skill set and lack of experience and polish would be fine if he was 22-24. Even if he was 25-26, for his level of experience and polish he'd be behind the curve. Bennett has the youth but has flaws that probably cant be fixed. Davis is the best of the 2 but neither guy is the future of the team at qb. Davis would be good to have come off the bench for either willy or nichols if one plays really poorly in game. As he'd atleast be a change of pace and could spark some thing with his legs.   

Forgetting Davis was on the Falcons 53 man roster for 2 years. Which means dress for an actual game.  Which none of those guys can claim to have been.

Not to nitpick but didn't Davis start the last game of the Year for us vs Toronto last season? 

17 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

No, i didnt. young qbs starting isnt a bad thing at all. We have a ton of young qbs now where as a few years ago when half the teams in the league lacked good qbs we had tons of old qbs. 

I've already showed you most of the starters in the league spent a couple of years as backups in the CFL.  This is really the main point that I'm arguing with you. 

18 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Your still missing the point. Thats those guys were close to two years younger and further ahead. Thats massive. 

I think you are missing the point.  For the guys I showed you, all their ages are about the same for their first year in the CFL and the stats I showed.  That is why I included their ages.  

 

As for the rest of it, I've already said I don't think Davis isn't going to amount to much.  Just don't agree with your argument that a QB doesn't need time to develop.  You know, this quote here:

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Thats not really true. It takes the right coaching staff and pieces. But mostly the right qb. Ricky ray and jason maas didnt have that. Khari jones didnt have that. The current crop of good young qbs in the cfl have been thrown to the wolfs and become king of the jungle. 

The majority of the QBs in the CFL have had time to develop and learn the game.  You can argue that they didn't need the time that they were just "stuck" behind  a good QB, but that is just getting into a chicken and egg argument.

I anxiously await your reply to twist my words and tell me how I am wrong again.