17to85 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 So which games do you feel the defense didn't give the team a chance to win this year? We win 2 of 3 vs the Riders with another competent DC. A few other games that I can't remember now where we couldn't close the win because we couldn't stop the run. Now you're just flat out lying. The defense kept the Riders from scoring much at all in the first game we played them, it was the turnovers by the offense that sunk the Bombers in that game. Labour is one I will grant. The D needed a stop on that last drive and failed to get one, but the banjo bowl again wasn't the Ds fault. They gave the offense the ball back multiple times in the final few minutes and again the offence failed to capitalize. So I will ask again, how many games did the D not give the team a chance to win? Labour I put on the, loss to Ottawa and in Edmonton I would also say they didn't give the team a chance to win... but 3 games out of 18 that's not nearly so bad as some of you like to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm going to play silly bugger here because everyone wants to always bring up this "we would have won X amount more games with a conventional defense" argument. How many games in our big start do we lose if Etch's defense isn't locking things down and creating havoc out there prior to teams getting more film on our D? A more conventional D probably wins a few games for us this year, but let's be honest - it probably loses us a few too. Our wacky defense confused the hell out of Lefevour, shut down Glenn and forced a bunch of turnovers and scored 14 points in Montreal. Does a conventional D automatically do the same? That's always been his thing though. first 6 games he looks like a genius, then after that fans get frustrated because it seems like we always lose the game in the 4th because we can't stop the run even when everybody knows they're going to run the ball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I just hope that all the Etch defenders are happy to live with the defensive schemes we had this year, because by defending the defensive schemes, you might as well say you want him back. If during the 2015 season you are not happy with the defence, providing Etch is still here, you are going to have to bite your tongues, while the rest of us get to complain vehemently. Perhaps all those who want Etch back, should commit themselves now. between the terrible reffing, and our terrible Coordinators, This year was just as tough for me as last season.... The fantastic beginning followed by everybody figuring out our O and D schemes and the major plummet really crushed my spirits this season... especially after all the crap we've put up with lately. If Etch and MB are still here next year with no changes to the schemes... I think that might be enough to push me to the NFL for the year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Was Stubler signed to a one year deal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzmore Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'm not averse to bringing him back at all...unless you can definitively prove to me that we're bringing in someone better. Mark F 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrg Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back. More about giving a fair and accurate assessment in what happened over joining the torch and pitchfork crew. I don't really care one way or the other about him being here in 2015, but that doesn't mean I'm going to join all the drama queens who insist he should be the whipping boy for 11 losses. Most of those can fairly be hung on the offence and/or special teams breakdowns. sweep the leg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back. No this isn't what it is at all, this is Mike and I and some others trying to explain that the defense wasn't as bad as some of you want to pretend it was. Stay or go with Etch I don't care, I'll trust O'Shea to make the choice he wants. If Etch is back though (which he probably will be) it's not the disaster that some of you want to pretend it is because the defense for all it's unconventionality was not really a problem this season. Noeller 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah I don't really care if Etch is back or not. Will I be disappointed either way? No. I strongly believe if our defense ranked the same but it wasn't so *different*, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints. It's because it's unconventional AND it had its ups and downs that people want Etch gone so bad. And y'know ... because they wanted him gone before he ever even got here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah I don't really care if Etch is back or not. Will I be disappointed either way? No. I strongly believe if our defense ranked the same but it wasn't so *different*, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints. It's because it's unconventional AND it had its ups and downs that people want Etch gone so bad. And y'know ... because they wanted him gone before he ever even got here. And yet, Dave -- of ALL PEOPLE -- has been able to come around on the idea of it. He was one of the most vocal about not wanting Etch here in the first place, but was able to see that the defense really wasn't the problem this year. If Dave can change his mind about something, anyone can.....even curmudgeonly old Iso Al.... SPuDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah I don't really care if Etch is back or not. Will I be disappointed either way? No. I strongly believe if our defense ranked the same but it wasn't so *different*, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints. It's because it's unconventional AND it had its ups and downs that people want Etch gone so bad. And y'know ... because they wanted him gone before he ever even got here. And yet, Dave -- of ALL PEOPLE -- has been able to come around on the idea of it. He was one of the most vocal about not wanting Etch here in the first place, but was able to see that the defense really wasn't the problem this year. If Dave can change his mind about something, anyone can.....even curmudgeonly old Iso Al.... That's because I am an open minded individual who bases his opinions on evidence and logic. It's why the people who disagree with me are wrong. Noeller and M.O.A.B. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigseye Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 So the GM and coach don't know what they are talking about when they said the run differential decided games....okay. Don't be obtuse.. Games doesn't mean ALL games.. Smh. Only if you stop being so pointed..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigseye Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back.No this isn't what it is at all, this is Mike and I and some others trying to explain that the defense wasn't as bad as some of you want to pretend it was. Stay or go with Etch I don't care, I'll trust O'Shea to make the choice he wants. If Etch is back though (which he probably will be) it's not the disaster that some of you want to pretend it is because the defense for all it's unconventionality was not really a problem this season. Now you're doing it Dave. The defense got worse as the season went on, it became susceptible to the pass because the secondary was being asked to stop the run, it was giving up big plays on the ground and now through the air, it was swiss cheese for any team, even the vaunted offense of the ORB's. But it really wasn't a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 People did have their minds made up about Etch, before the season started. Since I knew nothing about Etch, I watched the games without that problem. And It was obvious that the offence was putrid for the last two thirds of the season, and the main reason why we couldn't win any games. It was actually surprising, given the horrible play of the offence, that the defence at no time during the year quit, or gave up. credit to Etch there. How much of that putrid offence gets attributed to inadequate players, injuries, bad decisions like not playing Cotton, and coaching, I have no idea. But if anything needs immediate changes, it's the offence. Mr Dee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back.No this isn't what it is at all, this is Mike and I and some others trying to explain that the defense wasn't as bad as some of you want to pretend it was. Stay or go with Etch I don't care, I'll trust O'Shea to make the choice he wants. If Etch is back though (which he probably will be) it's not the disaster that some of you want to pretend it is because the defense for all it's unconventionality was not really a problem this season. Now you're doing it Dave. The defense got worse as the season went on, it became susceptible to the pass because the secondary was being asked to stop the run, it was giving up big plays on the ground and now through the air, it was swiss cheese for any team, even the vaunted offense of the ORB's. But it really wasn't a problem. No it wasn't a problem. The offense was the biggest problem in the back half of the year, except as I mentioned those couple of games. Redblacks and Eskimos being a couple of them. But a big part of those losses was also the offenses inability to do anything. The last 2 BC games any kind of offensive production they can win. Against Hamilton the D kept them in that game and all the offense had to do was score that damned TD late. Defense kept them in the games against the stamps for the most part. A lot of you are trying to make believe pretty hard that the defense was a problem because it fits your preconceived notions about Etchevary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzmore Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ahhh...so it's all about defending the truth as some of you see it. Only one problem...games are won and lost by all sorts of things, and picking out certain plays does not mean the game was won or lost as a result. However our schemes on defence certainly contributed, and if he is back, will again. No way we will ever get to be the #1 defence in the league with Etch as the boss. He has proved that in the past. I will commit myself... I don't want him back, I don't like his schemes, they don't work over the long run. I don't want a defence that is 2nd last in sacks and last in the league defending the run. Some of you can say we wouldn't have won or lost certain games all you want...good your opinion...and true that certain games weren't entirely the fault of the defence, but for me, I don't want to watch his defence next year and has MOS constantly keep saying, we weren't good enough in the gaps, and the preventing the running game doesn't matter all that much. James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbrg Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 From where I sat any increases in the susceptibility of our pass defence had more to do with a decrease in our ability to generate QB pressure than our secondary being asked to tackle a RB. And now someone will insist that should be on Etch... Whereas I ask why did the pressure decrease? From what I could tell, most of the problem came from a reduction in pressure from our end positions. And now someone will insist that should be on Etch... But why? Is there really a defence in the world that needs to disguise the intentions of the rush ends? The ends are going after the QB on every play with a mindful eye on keeping containment. That is 99% of their job. In the latter half we saw decreased production from Vega and Peach, and their replacements. And now someone will insist that should be on Etch... At some point the players have to make plays. Injuries? No idea how big a role that played, but we were not getting plays made from our end position at the rate needed to make the overall design of the defence effective. And that is on the players. SPuDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigseye Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back.No this isn't what it is at all, this is Mike and I and some others trying to explain that the defense wasn't as bad as some of you want to pretend it was. Stay or go with Etch I don't care, I'll trust O'Shea to make the choice he wants. If Etch is back though (which he probably will be) it's not the disaster that some of you want to pretend it is because the defense for all it's unconventionality was not really a problem this season. Now you're doing it Dave. The defense got worse as the season went on, it became susceptible to the pass because the secondary was being asked to stop the run, it was giving up big plays on the ground and now through the air, it was swiss cheese for any team, even the vaunted offense of the ORB's. But it really wasn't a problem. No it wasn't a problem. The offense was the biggest problem in the back half of the year, except as I mentioned those couple of games. Redblacks and Eskimos being a couple of them. But a big part of those losses was also the offenses inability to do anything. The last 2 BC games any kind of offensive production they can win. Against Hamilton the D kept them in that game and all the offense had to do was score that damned TD late. Defense kept them in the games against the stamps for the most part. A lot of you are trying to make believe pretty hard that the defense was a problem because it fits your preconceived notions about Etchevary. Offense was down right across the league, defense was winning games for virtually everyone. Could our offense have been better, absolutely, and if they were we probably do win more games but that's not what happened. What happened was games became defensive battles and when push came to shove, we got it shoved down our throat. James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noeller Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Did the defense get worse because of Etch? ...Or did the defense get worse because we lost too many starters and didn't have the depth to replace them? SPuDS and Brandon Blue&Gold 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR. CFL Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Etch was living proof that history does repeat itself. People figure out how to game plan against in the pass and the same thing happened this go round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DR. CFL Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Does not playing a healthy Sears constitute not having healthy starters? Does having to wait for a healthy Kuale to get hurt constitue not attempting to correct that problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 ok...so far we have Mike and 17to85 signed up for wanting Etch back.No this isn't what it is at all, this is Mike and I and some others trying to explain that the defense wasn't as bad as some of you want to pretend it was. Stay or go with Etch I don't care, I'll trust O'Shea to make the choice he wants. If Etch is back though (which he probably will be) it's not the disaster that some of you want to pretend it is because the defense for all it's unconventionality was not really a problem this season. Now you're doing it Dave. The defense got worse as the season went on, it became susceptible to the pass because the secondary was being asked to stop the run, it was giving up big plays on the ground and now through the air, it was swiss cheese for any team, even the vaunted offense of the ORB's. But it really wasn't a problem. No it wasn't a problem. The offense was the biggest problem in the back half of the year, except as I mentioned those couple of games. Redblacks and Eskimos being a couple of them. But a big part of those losses was also the offenses inability to do anything. The last 2 BC games any kind of offensive production they can win. Against Hamilton the D kept them in that game and all the offense had to do was score that damned TD late. Defense kept them in the games against the stamps for the most part. A lot of you are trying to make believe pretty hard that the defense was a problem because it fits your preconceived notions about Etchevary. Offense was down right across the league, defense was winning games for virtually everyone. Could our offense have been better, absolutely, and if they were we probably do win more games but that's not what happened. What happened was games became defensive battles and when push came to shove, we got it shoved down our throat. Except the defense didn't really drop off much as the year went on, the only thing that dropped off for the Bombers was the offense. That is the difference. They kept going 2 and out and the defense kept getting left on the field, that breaks any defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan007 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah I don't really care if Etch is back or not. Will I be disappointed either way? No. I strongly believe if our defense ranked the same but it wasn't so *different*, there wouldn't be nearly as many complaints. It's because it's unconventional AND it had its ups and downs that people want Etch gone so bad. And y'know ... because they wanted him gone before he ever even got here. And yet, Dave -- of ALL PEOPLE -- has been able to come around on the idea of it. He was one of the most vocal about not wanting Etch here in the first place, but was able to see that the defense really wasn't the problem this year. If Dave can change his mind about something, anyone can.....even curmudgeonly old Iso Al.... That's because I am an open minded individual who bases his opinions on evidence and logic. It's why the people who disagree with me are wrong. BUAHAHAHAHAHAHA...oh...thanks for that laugh. James and Noeller 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark F Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 wasn't there a game where we had 23 yards passing after the first half? Probably somehow, Etche's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbill2004 Posted November 13, 2014 Report Share Posted November 13, 2014 Defense got worse as the season went on because the rest of the league figured out Etch's schemes. Brandon, Logan007 and James 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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