Seeing if we can get a thread going without the error (sorry @WinnipegGordo )

Go Bombers!

16 hours ago, wbbfan said:

they aren’t changing the play, they are checking it which is with in the system. it’s not like 25 years ago when qbs called the plays and changing things at the line was contested. Offences today are designed for checks based on pre snap reads. This happens off pre determined reads. The majority of the time this is based on db depth or the sams alignment between the far slot and tackle box.

With TCs offence, this is often going to be moving away from the slot screen because the D is too tight to make it work.

Dru came out getting the ball out of his hand quickly, and was hitting great windows. The running game was cruising too.

Tor adjusted, and we had no counter to the pressure. which we’ve seen many times this year. We didn’t work off the run worth a damn and got all away from the run again for long stretches. The Os struggles are 100% on condell. Brown can beat the rush with his release if you give him the plays to do it. he can roll and throw on the run. he isn’t a scrambler, but he’s very good on slide pro, moved pockets, rolls and boots. None of which we used.

We also only threw or brady once, which was on a broken play. That’s the best pressure release we have. We didn’t run 1 jet/sweep or even the motion. This prevents the D from getting out of their lanes.

OCs have a ton of ways to deal with pressure, and manufacture drives. We tried none of them.

After tc, it falls on the ol, and the roster useage. Dante provides nothing and is a hindrance as a big. he can only block on smaller guys and teams know what’s coming when he’s on the field. At least if we put a 7th ol on we could deal with pressure and go heavy.

All of what you are saying is true but you also need QBs that can make defences pay for not respecting their arm. We dont have that QB anymore.

If defences can shut you down simply by taking away the short and intermediate you are screwed as an offence. That's all TO did in the 2nd half was take away our run game and dare us to beat them over the top. We cant sustain pass pro and our QBs have noodle arms.

Edited September 27Sep 27 by GCn20

Hate to say it but I hope we bring back Lapo next year

Lapo isn't coming back... We need new blood. I'm not sure who is out there but there HAS to be someone worthy of a promotion out there...

Not sure Lapo would come back at this point anyway. He's got a once in a lifetime opportunity to go to the Olympics with Team Canada. Would he give that up for another go round here?

If it was me, I wouldn't - I'd keep coaching the national team and doing media stuff until after the Olympics, then maybe look at return to the CFL.

Lapo between TSN and the National Team has two much better gigs.

You don't fail so spectacularly after looking so good multiple times if it's a player issue. That's 100% a coaching issue. Teams adjust and our coach can't figure out how to make adjustments.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but those comeback routes worked well and the answer to them taking them away was also there. When Ds close on them the deep shot opens up. Our players unfortunately cannot provide the pass pro necessary, our QB is not good with attacking deep, and our receivers struggle to get behind coverage. This is a natural progression in any offence that we simply cant pull off. We are hamstrung by our personnel currently.

There were some other options we may have tried so I give it 15%. However, it is increasingly apparent that Dinwiddie was correct in his assessment that DB has a limited skill set. What is also abundantly apparent is that our OL was far worse in the 2nd half in pass pro. The book is out on us that if you send pressure looks, and run blitz and keep the secondary closer to the LOS that we will not either get the chance for big plays, or dont have the QB to make it happen.

That's true. But you have got to be able to build something off of what Brown was able to do, for the first 1.5 quarters. If all teams had to do was bring pressure and take away the intermediate routes, then the O would not have generated what should have been a 24 - 0 lead. There were many plays where the Argos had 8 men in the box, to minimize Brady O in the second half. That right there leaves openings in the intermediate passing game.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

Hate to say it but I hope we bring back Lapo next year

What for? I mean, he'd just be handicapped by the QB.

In the Edm and the Tor games, we owned the first halves and got owned in the 2nd halves. Seems to me that the offensive game plan & play design is good to great, but the halftime adjustments and playcalling are crap.

2 hours ago, GCn20 said:

All of what you are saying is true but you also need QBs that can make defences pay for not respecting their arm. We dont have that QB anymore.

If defences can shut you down simply by taking away the short and intermediate you are screwed as an offence. That's all TO did in the 2nd half was take away our run game and dare us to beat them over the top. We cant sustain pass pro and our QBs have noodle arms.

You don't need a QB that can make Ds pay for not respecting their arm. Arm is not a huge factor in Ds game planning. Teams do not think or talk about arm anywhere near as much as fans and tv types do. We've seen qbs with way worse arms than brown have a lot more success.

Hurting Ds over the top, is about touch and timing. Getting the ball out quick enough that the Secondary can't come over to help it and giving it enough air to let your wr run under it. The biggest arms in the world are not throwing that much deeper than average to below-average-armed QBs. Getting it out quick and clean is everything in tossing deep balls.

Offences also design around reading downfield to the line. The deep route is almost always the first pre and post-snap read.

Brown has the arm to hurt any D in the league. We've seen it many times. Zach hasn't been remotely as good as brown at throwing the deep ball since 22 began.

What we need is a system with play design to counter quick pressure and put offensive targets in a position to make plays that fit their toolset. IE not asking White to be a down field 50/50 guy. Or asking the couple of big wrs we have to be YAC guys.

2 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Hate to say it but I hope we bring back Lapo next year

Lapo would be the best OC we've had since Bucks 2nd last year. Which is the saddest damn thing I've said in a long time.

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Lapo isn't coming back... We need new blood. I'm not sure who is out there but there HAS to be someone worthy of a promotion out there...

Idk if anyone else would look at lapo any more. So If he wants a way back in, I think this is his only chance. That said, just because he has a pulse and is better than the dead fish OCs we've saddled ourselves with doesn't mean he is the answer.

Tbh, Idk how we get new blood at OC that is worth having. IF we had hired Maksymic, I think we'd be 2nd in the west right now. Even with Zachs injuries.

15 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

In the Edm and the Tor games, we owned the first halves and got owned in the 2nd halves. Seems to me that the offensive game plan & play design is good to great, but the halftime adjustments and playcalling are crap.

I'd add that it's really just the 1st Q that is strong. After that, the good plays are generally just someone like Brady making outstanding plays.

The halftime adjustments do make it worse, and the 3rd Q is our worst handily.

What that smacks of is an extremely thin quality of install each week. The first few drives have a good handful of plays that are practiced and repped heavily. Then play calls are organized based on outcome and what you want to try to impose. You're talking 10-12 plays max that are set up to work off what the D gives you on film and what you do well.

If a front is undisciplined in the run game and crashes inside leverage early, you might put in wide or outside zone. If they give a lot of cushion and don't tackle well, you might put in quick timing slants.

The early drives of a game are almost always the most successful in the CFL. The element of surprise the O has is huge.

The problem is deeper than Ds adjusting in-game, or at the half, though. Our problem shows that we have a good initial punch, then no plan to build off that and no counter punch. You always want to layer off your early drive plans. Use screens to set up a screen and go, run plays to set up PA shots; one passing concept to play off another. We never have that. Essentially, we are playing checkers, thinking 1 move at a time, against people playing chess, thinking 10 moves ahead. Even if they think 2-3 moves ahead, they pants us once the opener is done.

In chess, this is referred to as a Book Player, or a glass cannon. They have memorized all the opening moves and look as if they know what they are doing. But they lack the fundamental understanding or ability to plan and develop the board. So after looking decent in the opening, they get creamed in the middlegame. Because they memorized but didn't understand any of what they read.

TC is a move nerd who has memorized everything other people do to succeed, but failed to grasp more than the tactics. He doesn't understand how to play chess against DCs. That's probably why he doesn't run the Jet sweep stuff we have run through the last 4 OCs. He doesn't get how to use it to build various plays.

4 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but those comeback routes worked well and the answer to them taking them away was also there. When Ds close on them the deep shot opens up. Our players unfortunately cannot provide the pass pro necessary, our QB is not good with attacking deep, and our receivers struggle to get behind coverage. This is a natural progression in any offence that we simply cant pull off. We are hamstrung by our personnel currently.

There were some other options we may have tried so I give it 15%. However, it is increasingly apparent that Dinwiddie was correct in his assessment that DB has a limited skill set. What is also abundantly apparent is that our OL was far worse in the 2nd half in pass pro. The book is out on us that if you send pressure looks, and run blitz and keep the secondary closer to the LOS that we will not either get the chance for big plays, or dont have the QB to make it happen.

We have the worst receiving corps in the CFL. The decision to play who we got is a result of BAD COACHING. Osh wouldn't know a receiver from a school crossing guard. We haveby far, the dumbest head coach in the CFL leading this team. Proof of that was not playing Singer over Cobb this season.

We also have the worst OC in Condell calling plays & you hang this loss on Brown??? HFS, man. This is all a product of BAD COACHING. Having a total dumbass as head coach along with the shittiest assistant coaching staff in the CFL.

Edited September 27Sep 27 by SpeedFlex27

2 hours ago, Mark H. said:

That's true. But you have got to be able to build something off of what Brown was able to do, for the first 1.5 quarters. If all teams had to do was bring pressure and take away the intermediate routes, then the O would not have generated what should have been a 24 - 0 lead. There were many plays where the Argos had 8 men in the box, to minimize Brady O in the second half. That right there leaves openings in the intermediate passing game.

What for? I mean, he'd just be handicapped by the QB.

The thing about Lapo is that his offence and progressions can wring a lot out of puss arm QBs. It is hard to cheat down on his offences because he is very good at making them guess even when they know you have a deficiency

9 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

We have the worst receiving corps in the CFL. The decision to play who we got is a result of BAD COACHING. Osh wouldn't know a receiver from a school crossing guard. We haveby far, the dumbest head coach in the CFL leading this team. Proof of that was not playing Singer over Cobb this season.

We also have the worst OC in Condell calling plays & you hang this loss on Brown??? HFS, man. This is all a product of BAD COACHING. Having a total dumbass as head coach along with the shittiest assistant coaching staff in the CFL.

Not defending our coaching but not going to pretend every loss is solely on them either. Our players are not good enough but everyone seems to think a new coach would magically turn duds into studs. We definitely need new coaches but we will get similar results if we had them this roster

I was joking about Lapo. I would prefer new blood. Now that im done joking and am being serious. How about Dinwiddie as our OC after he gets canned?

51 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Not defending our coaching but not going to pretend every loss is solely on them either. Our players are not good enough but everyone seems to think a new coach would magically turn duds into studs. We definitely need new coaches but we will get similar results if we had them this roster

Is this said with the same certainty you had when you said of singer was any good he'd be on the roster?

Seriously I don't know why you're so apologetic to there coaches when they continually do things to make it harder on the team they have.

21 hours ago, Tracker said:

I assume you mean that the OC change will happen, if it does, for next season. Sure as spit nothing is going to change this season.

No, I'm saying Dumbass running things probably won't change OC's. I said slight chance.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

The thing about Lapo is that his offence and progressions can wring a lot out of puss arm QBs. It is hard to cheat down on his offences because he is very good at making them guess even when they know you have a deficiency

Not defending our coaching but not going to pretend every loss is solely on them either. Our players are not good enough but everyone seems to think a new coach would magically turn duds into studs. We definitely need new coaches but we will get similar results if we had them this roster

When Osh plays favourites over better players who should be starting, over the hill vets like Neufeld & Bryant who both should have retired 3 years ago, not utilizing the Designated Canadian Rule, under utilizing Brady Oliveira when we need him, keeping someone like Dorian Singer on the PR starting Cobb, it's 100% coaching. As a fan it's so damned frustrating as we never field the best team to win. if Osh had his way we'd be starting 10 or 11 inferior Canadians. Even keeping better Canadian players on the bench. It's all about being Teacher's Pet. Free agents can't wait to leave.

15 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No, I'm saying Dumbass running things probably won't change OC's. I said slight chance.

When Osh plays favourites over better players who should be starting, over the hill vets like Neufeld & Bryant who both should have retired 3 years ago, not utilizing the Designated Canadian Rule, under utilizing Brady Oliveira when we need him, keeping someone like Dorian Singer on the PR starting Cobb, it's 100% coaching. As a fan it's so damned frustrating as we never field the best team to win. if Osh had his way we'd be starting 10 or 11 inferior Canadians. Even keeping better Canadian players on the bench. It's all about being Teacher's Pet. Free agents can't wait to leave.

Really? Name one who couldn't wait that turned down an equal offer from us. You are creating fiction. I agree with all your complaints but I don't believe for one second that we have anything better behind Neufeld and Bryant, that Singer/Cobb is as straight forward as you are suggesting because of passports/or that we would be starting 10 or 11 NATs. That is pure hyperbole.

I am not going to sit here and defend MOS's roster choices but I will challenge you to tell me how our roster could have been better against the Argos. It was easily the best usage we've seen in years. It sure wasn't our roster usage that lost us the Argo game. I get the frustration, but our best available roster was dressed and then failed to execute. It's very difficult for anyone thinking rationally to suggest that it was all coaching. Part of it...sure...bigger part was lack of talent. Funny you bring up Neufeld....he is our top graded O Lineman. I agree that we should sit Bryant until I watch Vanterpool who is considerably worse.

Edited September 28Sep 28 by GCn20

16 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Is this said with the same certainty you had when you said of singer was any good he'd be on the roster?

Seriously I don't know why you're so apologetic to there coaches when they continually do things to make it harder on the team they have.

I don't like our coaches any more than you do, just not going to pretend that a new coach gets anything out of this roster. You guys can pretend that this is an all star laden group of players being held back by coaching and I will choose to live in reality.

Edited September 28Sep 28 by GCn20

20 hours ago, 17to85 said:

You don't fail so spectacularly after looking so good multiple times if it's a player issue. That's 100% a coaching issue. Teams adjust and our coach can't figure out how to make adjustments.

With how good they've looked in parts of some games (1st half vs Elks, whole game vs the Als and Banjo Bowl, first half of the Argos minus literally 2 plays) and how poorly they've looked in others (2nd half Elks, last 5 minutes against BC, 2nd game against Calgary) I would be equally surprised at them completely tanking the rest of the season and missing the playoffs as I would be that they put it all together and make a real run at the cup. Just a real Jekyll and Hyde team.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

I don't like our coaches any more than you do, just not going to pretend that a new coach gets anything out of this roster. You guys can pretend that this is an all star laden group of players being held back by coaching and I will choose to live in reality.

But let's say we have better coaching and we do anything offensively in the 2nd half of the Edmonton game and anything offensively in the 2nd half of this Toronto game.... Suddenly that's 2 extra wins on the season and our prospective post season looks a LOT better.

You seem to believe people think new coaches would have a super unbeatable 18-0 team when all we're saying is maybe we'd be able to stop pissing away winnable games with some better coaching. Few exceptions aside they're not getting blown off the field. There is talent here to win some games. Need to maximize it though and not do everything on hard mode just because.

54 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

But let's say we have better coaching and we do anything offensively in the 2nd half of the Edmonton game and anything offensively in the 2nd half of this Toronto game.... Suddenly that's 2 extra wins on the season and our prospective post season looks a LOT better.

You seem to believe people think new coaches would have a super unbeatable 18-0 team when all we're saying is maybe we'd be able to stop pissing away winnable games with some better coaching. Few exceptions aside they're not getting blown off the field. There is talent here to win some games. Need to maximize it though and not do everything on hard mode just because.

Let's say we have different coaching and we lose a couple of the games we narrowly won despite better coaching. The players have to wear their record along with the coaches is what I'm saying. The Edmonton game, granted, better coaching probably wins that game but this week's game is easily winnable without changing coaches if the players just don't play undisciplined. We don't hit the QB 15 seconds after he throws the ball, or whack him on the helmet for no apparent reason, we don't drop 2 explosion play passes and this game turns out quite different too and that is the point I'm trying to make. You guys are trying to reason that different coaching wins last week, I think different playing by the players wins that game as well. The players lost that game because of errors they made. It's right there on film. Extending drives for them through penalties, backing ourselves up with missed blocking. That's not on the coaches. All I'm saying is that all we hear about here is bad coaching while the players making bonehead and undisicplined plays seem to be getting a free pass. We gave the game to them...our players did that. An 84 yard TD because the DBs lost track of a guy in coverage, 2 other scoring drives where we had the stop and penalties extended their drives. Our players need to do better, and that's not excusing the coaches it's just laying blame a little more proportionally accurate than what the mob here seems to want to do.

Penalties happen in games, busts happen in games, the consistent inability to adjust during the course of a game is a systemic problem. If you need to play perfectly disciplined and never give up a bust to have a chance at a narrow win then you have systemic problems.

When I look at the players on this team yes there are some gaps, but I also see coaches that for the most part are failing to get the most out of what they have consistently.

5 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Let's say we have different coaching and we lose a couple of the games we narrowly won despite better coaching. The players have to wear their record along with the coaches is what I'm saying. The Edmonton game, granted, better coaching probably wins that game but this week's game is easily winnable without changing coaches if the players just don't play undisciplined. We don't hit the QB 15 seconds after he throws the ball, or whack him on the helmet for no apparent reason, we don't drop 2 explosion play passes and this game turns out quite different too and that is the point I'm trying to make. You guys are trying to reason that different coaching wins last week, I think different playing by the players wins that game as well. The players lost that game because of errors they made. It's right there on film. Extending drives for them through penalties, backing ourselves up with missed blocking. That's not on the coaches. All I'm saying is that all we hear about here is bad coaching while the players making bonehead and undisicplined plays seem to be getting a free pass. We gave the game to them...our players did that. An 84 yard TD because the DBs lost track of a guy in coverage, 2 other scoring drives where we had the stop and penalties extended their drives. Our players need to do better, and that's not excusing the coaches it's just laying blame a little more proportionally accurate than what the mob here seems to want to do.

Discipline is a product of coaching, though. As is execution.

The talent on the field could put up a crazy play or 2 and win most any game of football. But that goes both ways. If Toronto doesn't give up a 76-yard TD on the short-yardage play, or makes a couple tackles on contact, we aren't even in the game.

With better coaching, that game is 100% a win. IF we had max cover FG team on instead of max pro, it isn't a TD, and we win on that alone.

This roster is easily good enough to be an 11 win team. The difference is coaching.

9 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Discipline is a product of coaching, though. As is execution.

The talent on the field could put up a crazy play or 2 and win most any game of football. But that goes both ways. If Toronto doesn't give up a 76-yard TD on the short-yardage play, or makes a couple tackles on contact, we aren't even in the game.

With better coaching, that game is 100% a win. IF we had max cover FG team on instead of max pro, it isn't a TD, and we win on that alone.

This roster is easily good enough to be an 11 win team. The difference is coaching.

11 win team? You are smoking the good stuff today. I guess we will agree to disagree. Without a complete rebuild to our OL we are not in any kind of conversation as a contender. None. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that KW, and MOS will be back for the next year or two. What frustrates me is that we seem to be standing pat on our roster. I get that MOS has shortcomings on roster usage but his guys still play hard for him, what we need is KW to start building his roster up because a coaching change isn't happening and our only hope is that we add character and skill to our dressing room. These players are not going to be transformed into a contender this year and if we go back to a similar roster it will be the same result. We need KW to be very active this offseason, and to be the boss of the roster going into next year's TC, and somehow i don't think he will be.

Edited September 28Sep 28 by GCn20

Well they'd be at 9 wins already with smarter coaching... So yeah 11 wins isn't unrealistic.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

11 win team? You are smoking the good stuff today. I guess we will agree to disagree. Without a complete rebuild to our OL we are not in any kind of conversation as a contender. None. I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that KW, and MOS will be back for the next year or two. What frustrates me is that we seem to be standing pat on our roster. I get that MOS has shortcomings on roster usage but his guys still play hard for him, what we need is KW to start building his roster up because a coaching change isn't happening and our only hope is that we add character and skill to our dressing room. These players are not going to be transformed into a contender this year and if we go back to a similar roster it will be the same result. We need KW to be very active this offseason, and to be the boss of the roster going into next year's TC, and somehow i don't think he will be.

I'm really not. Take a look at what our D has done since we finally made changes in secondary, both on the roster and in usage. Our offence has been the poorest-run unit I've seen in the CFL in a long, long time.

We lost 4 games by 6 points or less, and have won 7 with 4 games to go. If, through better coaching, we win 2 of those close games, which would be very easy, then win just 2 of our remaining 4, that is an 11-win season. Frankly, if we parked Bryant and started Rando at RT (with Broxton at LT), eli/vanterpool at C, and started Singer from week 1, this team would be a very good 12-win team and could've won the West with some good health breaks.

That's not to mention moves like all the reps we had with Kelly at S, Nichols, Moxey, Woodbey, or the massive investment we've waste DIs on for teams lbers.

Our struggles have been largely self-imposed. Piss poor roster construction, player usage, installs, and the worst level of adjustments we've seen since year 1 of mos here.

If we started the year with the personnel and installs on D that we are running now, we would have the best D in the league by a good margin.