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The 30, and the (d)evolution of our front scheme.

JY has lead us to running a 30 base front in our defense, but we also saw large changes to our scheme in 2023 as well. I've seen confusion and angst towards the front in many GDTs and else where on line. So I wanted to start this separate discussion around our front, mainly the changes we've made the past couple of years, and why we have gotten less and less pressure since 2021. 

First I'll throw in a rudimentary break down of the alignments and techniques.  

          5-4-4i-3- 2-2i-1-0-1-2i -2 -3-4i-4-5                  DL technique

   TE      LT        LG        C        RG        RT       TE        Position 

D     C         B         A        A          B          C      D     Gap identification

Note obviously the TE is used sparingly in the cfl, though heavy sets are becoming more popular with 6ol, its mainly academic having them in as most defenses don't have DL who play a counter role to that other than in short yardage.  Down south they also have Techs 6/7/9. With 6 lining up right on the TE, 7 on the inside shoulder of the TE, and 9 outside the TE. An 8 tech comes in when a team lines up a 6th OL beside a TE, also a short yardage type of set. You also see a Wide 9 alignment down south which is generally an even front, where the edge is far outside the furthest blocker on his side. 

The i alignment means inside shade, and has the DL lining up inside shoulder to out side shoulder on the opposing linemen. So a 1 and a 3 tech are right in the gap equally between the two OL, a 2i and 4i line up half in the gap and half on a linemen. 

Roles:

0 Tech = nose tackle/nose guard. Their primary role is to push the Centre back, and create pressure opportunities for other linemen. They almost allways draw a double team when executed right, and good ones will play both A gaps (2 gap player.) They generally push the centre to one side to body block it, and if the rb comes to the gap they are standing in, will disengage to make a tackle. These are your Stoves, Drake Nevis' etc. Most often, a 0 tech is seen in 30 fronts. in a 40 front, you see more 1 tech play. 

1 Tech. Similar role to a nose, but plays only 1 gap in the run scheme. generally a guy doesn't need to be as much of a thumper or as heavy to play the 1 vs the 0. Its more common in 40 fronts, where you might use 1, with a 3, or a 2i. An advantage of shading the nose vs playing straight up is it can be easier to twist with the DT in a 2/2i alignment, and vs 5 man blocking fronts it basically prevents the offense from doubling your End on the shade side. So if Woods is in 1 alignment, and Adams is in the 3, where ever willy jefferson lines up on that side, hes sure to only be facing 1 ol. Woods is smaller than our previous noses and is really good at both that and 1 tech. But we generally use 1/0 interchangeably. 

2i/2 These are the most common alignments in a 40 front, This is primarily a run stopping tech, unless twisting with another DL. Or some times it will be paired with a 1 shade to the other side of the line, in order for the 2/2i to shoot the gap in pass rush, or when the centre/guard is slow/sloppy with footwork and crossing the face of the guard alone creates pressure. 

3 Tech, the inside pass rusher. Mainly this player will shot a single gap with the goal of creating pressure/disruption and making a play. Casey sayles is a good example of a 3tech. Lighter than most DT, but heavier than a DE. A bullrusher with a single gap in the run gap, but who mostly plays the same on every snap. Beat the guard, inside or out, get in the back field and tear things up. Usually a good 30 front team will have 1 or 2 3 techs. 2 3 tech guys with a nose tackle. This is often what happens when you see a 30 front get a sack. The tackles pinch in to help, but you can only block soo long before one of the interior get home. Either the nose is getting a 1v1, or one of the 3s gets a free pass to the qb. When successful a tackle is often left upright and unable to get in on the play. 

4i. The other common end alignment in a 30 front. This is generally more of a run stopping alignment with a primary goal of turning a rb side ways and denying the B gap. This position does not start in the gap as much as a 2i generally. They tend to scrape into the gap and play that spot no matter the blocking scheme. Previously we used Jonathon Kongbo with great success in the 4i alignment. 

4/5 Tech. A 4 tech alignment is often more of a bull rusher in the cfl, like jackson jeffcoat, or you might use a 4 when you send a blitz (like our DB delay off the edge package) off their side. 5 tech is the prototypical pass rushing spot, think Willy jefferson on most of his edge snaps. 

We havent made a ton of use of wide alignments, forcing the Tackle to reach and possibly over commit to the end. It is also a bit dependent on the pass rushers moves. Our ends currently mainly try to curl around the edge of the tackle, rather than trying to sprint on a dart. We have seen some of that play from Montreal, and BC in the past. 

 

 In the earlies mafia days we started bringing in, and excelled at finding, Nose tackles. We pretty much fit our DL scheme around the nose. Often in 0, or some times a 1 tech, with a 3 tech DT and 2 4/5s. In 19 we used nevis and stove with jake rotating inside, two guys capable of playing nose and 2 guys who could play 3 tech. We let Nevis walk in 21, and stove missed a chunk of the season, so we let him walk in the off season of 21. Late in 21 we started working in more Cheetah front as well. where all the guys put on the DL can all pass rush especially with speed. Some times this would include stove on the nose with 3 des, other times it would be 4 Des with hansen, kongbo, jeffcoat, and willy, or 30 fronts with 3 of those guys on, often with willy on the nose. Though willy aligned on the nose in this front, he mainly played like a 3 tech, trying to shoot the inside gap on the centre. This is especially effective if the OL gap spread is wider than normal, or if you have a good combination of a quick end and a slow/sloppy centre. 

At the end of 21 we let stove walk, and made another wholesale change to the strategy of our front. We put jake at a 1/0 tech frequently, with casey sayles playing a 3 tech, and willy/JJ on the 4/5. It was kind of a hybrid from our cheetah pack, with the goal of jake drawing a double and forcing teams to block the other 3 one on one. But Jeffcoat missed almost half the season and dipped in his production. 

22 Ended and again we let our prized FA dl walk, casey sayles left, with the spot filled internally by Ricky walker. We moved walker around a lot in 23, tried him in the 3 tech spot to modest success, then as the extra end rotating inside out, this to more success. But still the interior was a fraction of the force it was with stove, and sayles etc. JJ and WJ enjoyed a good year doing the same as usual, but better and a bit healthier. Cam lawson took a big step forward as the rotational piece, providing us with the most impact in the fewest snaps along the interior.

But JJ still missed a good chunk with age catching up and we let him go in the off season of 23, also letting walker go. Lawson has missed all of this year to date, and we have tried to again fill the gaps internally with garbutt and habba, to very little success. This year we saw the largest shake up on our DL in a few years, between loses and the change to much more 30 front. We've had success with Adams and Woods, but both have seen stints on the PR sitting behind Jake, garbutt and habba. We've at times tried garbutt and habba in 3, 4, and 5 techs. Habba has been worse than his limited play last year and garbutt not much better. Jake has deteriorated to a fraction of his former self, and WJ has struggled with oppressive double teams killing his drive and his motor. 

We also got away from the no-thrill-for-bighill package that certainly shortened his career. Frequently sending Biggie on a "blitz" into a guard to try and force on on ones for willy. It seldom succeeded, as Jake doesn't demand double teams in side. And bighill rarely got pressure or disruption in the face of 300lbs guards. 

We have seem glimpses of all import 30 fronts, with woods at 0, Adams at 4i/3 and WJ in 4i/4/5 alignments. Which has done a tremendous job of creating pressure and closing gaps. Hopefully this is more of what we will see in the future, especially next year. We could easily succeed and disrupt the back field with that unit and a rotation including a healthy lawson, a second year Hubert, and the better of habba/garbutt or a new end. We could weave in 40 fronts with mainly different guys playing different alignments. Hubert could play some 3 tech, lawson 0 through 3, and adams just about any where. 

Those snaps have been far too few though, as our once vaunted pressure packed front has gone from the forefront of our defensive scheming, to an after thought. JY has done a tremendous job with the secondary, and limiting the bleeding of wasted snaps with edges who cant get pressure and blitzes that only waste a man. Taking the DL front to the next level is the key to our long term success on D, as we saw in the LDC, you can always get openings and create offence in the CFL if you have time to pass. 

 

 

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  • JY has lead us to running a 30 base front in our defense, but we also saw large changes to our scheme in 2023 as well. I've seen confusion and angst towards the front in many GDTs and else where on li

  • JohnnyAbonny
    JohnnyAbonny

    Get this man a job at 3DN yesterday 

  • I'm more  concerned about Leake..and co. Ripping us a new arsehole if we continue a 3 man front with Jake on the nose...or those sets with him and Schmeck together...that's where we will get killed

Featured Replies

Just now, Bigblue204 said:

For what it's worth. I know KW tried to get Stove back from BC multiple times.

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

16 hours ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

ChatGPT to the rescue:

 

 

The user is discussing changes in their football team's defensive front over the past few seasons, especially the transition to a 30 base front. They note that while the team's defense has evolved, pressure on the quarterback has decreased since 2021. The post provides a detailed breakdown of various defensive line (DL) techniques and roles (e.g., 0, 1, 3 tech), explaining how players line up and what gaps they aim to control.

The team had success with a nose tackle-heavy scheme in the past but has struggled after letting key players go, leading to inconsistent pressure from the defensive line. Recent seasons have seen experimentation with different alignments, including the "cheetah" front that emphasizes speed. Injuries and personnel changes have further affected performance, with some players struggling to maintain their previous form.

While the secondary has improved, the DL is no longer as effective, and the author hopes for better use of a 30 front featuring players like Adams, Woods, and Lawson to disrupt opposing offenses more consistently.

I read the entire OP and then I read this... it's amazing how accurate of recap this is

1 hour ago, Bubba Zanetti said:

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

Literally... he never took a single snap in a BC uniform

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

4 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

I can see the angle of the "seen that done that" view...that being said when yu no longer have the ability or the athletic skill any more to react to it...let alone make an impactful play then you become a serious liability...he can't do that no more, for 2+ yrs now really so it's really counter productive now and just delays the development of a younger giy with upside...we have more than enough vet depth and athletic guys to compensate for not rostering Thomas...

Havn't seen enough of Schmeck this yr....but I only see him as being a nice depth piece...but not a stalwart starter by any stretch...I see way more upside in Samson, and even skill at this oint...but he is the new guy here and as history has shown with our staff....many instances have used tenure/vet status/favorite to trump talent and upside

I agree tho...Lawson when back will be thatCanadian stalwart and would have already been that if he didnt have to play second fiddle to Thomas based on my previous comment...he was head and shoulders better 2 yrs ago already, but for 2025 him as the defacto Candadian DT/Nose and Samson taking theSchmeck spot with Adams and Woods rounding out the interior...we are looking pretty solid...and that's not even factoring in this coming draft....who we dig up scouting, and free agency

We seriously need to do whatever it takes...trade...free agency or bring in the number of bodies like we have before with DB'sfor a pure edge rusher to really set us up...and then keep whoever takes the 3rd end spot outta Haba and Garbutt

 

  • Author
1 hour ago, Atomic said:

It's interesting that despite these issues on the DL, the defence as a whole has mostly been pretty successful. Is the secondary just that good?

Our drop 9 really puts teams in a position where the fronts impact is minimalized. You can only block guys for soo long and when you have 9 guys sandwiching 5 targets, it takes a lot to make a play. Teams are also deathly allergic to the run these days, and to be frank the quality of qbing in the cfl is at atleast a 30 year low. 

1 hour ago, Bubba Zanetti said:

Yeah ill bet that is one guy Walters really regrets not keeping. Mind you he's been nothing but injured since he left, but he was an absolute force when he was here.

Yeah, while I don't agree with the decision not to keep him, it worked out very well. The real issue is that we moved on from stove and sayles with out any decent next man up. 

  • Author
28 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

I am going to play a bit of devils advocate......

Thomas is a veteran, he may not be as good as he was, and although a great time contributor, all intents and purposes a great team member and has had a healthy long tenure...BUT he has seen that and done this, I really believe the coaches wanted/needed that veteran presence....He is not elite but is also not as bad as some portray him to be....I also believe he has played more than he would have had Lawson not gone down with a severe injury....

Schmeck is not the most talented guy on the field but for intents and purposes a guy who works his but off and although not outstanding at one thing he is good at many things....I believe he had one foot out the door in TC and I believe that is why he saw so much time in preseason....I think he made the coaches keep him based off his intangibles and the team will do what they can to find where he helps the best...I think he will be a good/great utility player for us

Hubert surprised the heck out of pretty well everyone....honestly IMO he surpassed Bennet and I believe made Bennet expendable...perhaps he develops into more, but at worst he is a CDN who can share reps on the edge and not cost us a ton...

 

But let's look at the D-line....Adams/Woods young and inexperienced IMP's, Habba and Garbut young and inexperienced IMP's....Hubert and Schmeck young and inexperienced CDN's. Willy is a savvy IMP. vet.....but outside of Willy that is a very young inexperienced D-line so insert a vet to balance it out.........perfect insert Lawson and rotate Thomas...oh crap Lawson is out long term....ok second-best option insert Thomas and continue to groom Schmeck.....that is what we are doing and I believe why we are doing it. I don't believe our coaches are dumb and can't see, we don't have 2019 level D-line talent...but our LB's have come together well and our d-backfield has come together very well,

We have adapted and evolved....yes in doing this our d-line has played weaker....but we are still a top defence we are just doing it differently.......I may be inclined to say that our defensive coaches have actually done a very, very good job bringing the young guys along, and overcoming a weaker d-line....(save for not dressing enough earlier in the season)

 

Looking into the future, providing we can keep this group mostly intact next year, we are an MLB and possibly an interior D-lineman (TBD if Lawson is that piece) away from being a very, very good defence in 2025...one that has a bunch of younger guys and depth pieces with real live play time under their belts from this year.....

 

You do have a point. And it is entirely possible that Thomas could be useful as a limited rotational piece in the proper role. However, he has 0 efficacy as a nose tackle, and is playing by far the most snaps of any DL on our roster. If he was playing 1/4 of the defensive snaps at most, as a 3 tech (which is where most of his contribution here has come) he would have more to offer with out question. WIth a full healthy DL he'd still be at best our 4th DL. 

 Leadership and intangibles etc certainly have their worth. A guy like bailey has shown that. The big issue with keeping a guy like thomas around for that role, is we have Willy. Who is also the highest paid player on our D. He should be the one leading, teaching, and setting the tone. If it doesn't come from him, It simply won't mean nearly as much. A rookie imp DL fresh off NFL looks isn't going to take a guy like Jake nearly as serious as a guy like Willy. 

I agree on schmek. I think he should be groomed into a super utility guy, and really an OL. His motor, ethic and drive are superb. 

Keep in mind, stove was a young inexperienced imp in 19/21. So were guys like brandin bryant, poop johnson, and casey sayles. Experience, isn't a big requirement for performance on the DL. To date in their snaps woods and adams have been our best DL. 

Much of the year we haven't need the canadian DT. 

Its also not adaptation or evolution. We didn't adapt to teams defeating what we ran, and what we are doing isn't progress. Its devolution, we run far simpler less effective line schemes plus handicap our self with the guys we run out. All while having the pieces to fix it. 

 

Keep in mind, what we are running in the secondary is not long term sustainable with out pressure. Down south the fangio 6 scheme is not a base for any team, not even vic fangios. When the argos ran the similar drop 9 match cover scheme it didn't take long for teams to adjust either. At some point, we need to be able to stop the run with out run blitzing, and get sustained pressure. We will need to evolve to be a more dynamic 2nd level team at some point as well. 

27 minutes ago, Booch said:

I can see the angle of the "seen that done that" view...that being said when yu no longer have the ability or the athletic skill any more to react to it...let alone make an impactful play then you become a serious liability...he can't do that no more, for 2+ yrs now really so it's really counter productive now and just delays the development of a younger giy with upside...we have more than enough vet depth and athletic guys to compensate for not rostering Thomas...

Havn't seen enough of Schmeck this yr....but I only see him as being a nice depth piece...but not a stalwart starter by any stretch...I see way more upside in Samson, and even skill at this oint...but he is the new guy here and as history has shown with our staff....many instances have used tenure/vet status/favorite to trump talent and upside

I agree tho...Lawson when back will be thatCanadian stalwart and would have already been that if he didnt have to play second fiddle to Thomas based on my previous comment...he was head and shoulders better 2 yrs ago already, but for 2025 him as the defacto Candadian DT/Nose and Samson taking theSchmeck spot with Adams and Woods rounding out the interior...we are looking pretty solid...and that's not even factoring in this coming draft....who we dig up scouting, and free agency

We seriously need to do whatever it takes...trade...free agency or bring in the number of bodies like we have before with DB'sfor a pure edge rusher to really set us up...and then keep whoever takes the 3rd end spot outta Haba and Garbutt

 

I think if lawson was healthy and 100 today, woods would go onto the PR and we'd cut a DL. Lawson replacing thomas would go a long ways, but the rotation needs to be better and the best players still need to be on the active roster. 

14 hours ago, 17to85 said:

They became too married to the idea of a Canadian on the DL. It wasn't a necessity and they haven't got the heart to wind Thomas down.

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

9 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

Having players in spots tho...sure is depth....but are they quality tho making it worth while?...or actual legit "starter" quality.....In this regard...thats a big hell no

Lawson is quality...thats about it...we dont even know if Samson is as he never gets a chance....

Our Canadian Corner is top notch...no questions there

Our canadian Sam is average at best....look around the league...where would he go and be a starter...i see nowhere

The thing is we don't even need to start 3 on defence....based on who we declare on offence....so why dont we go with our "best" dline guys...and best SAM....and then you have a good back-up in Kramdi who can be used with rotational reps, and you can have a Canadian DT spell off your better Import DT's for 8 to 10 snaps a game...and when Lawson is back then it's even a non-issue as he can/could be the defacto starter himself

Thats the questions I ask...and want to hear good reasoning for

I used to feel the same with BA but the last 4 ..5 games he seems to have got his game back and the groups overall play as well is attributed to his leadership and direction out there

24 minutes ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

You have the depth with Thomas, Lawson and Schmekel.  Plus Hubert to rotate at DE.

You also have quality Canadians at SLB send SCB.

So what? They don't NEED it. But they forced it and kept more impactful imports on the sidelines to fit it.

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

2 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

Our blitzes are like blintzes. Soft and cheesy. 

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

You do have a point. And it is entirely possible that Thomas could be useful as a limited rotational piece in the proper role. However, he has 0 efficacy as a nose tackle, and is playing by far the most snaps of any DL on our roster. If he was playing 1/4 of the defensive snaps at most, as a 3 tech (which is where most of his contribution here has come) he would have more to offer with out question. WIth a full healthy DL he'd still be at best our 4th DL. 

 Leadership and intangibles etc certainly have their worth. A guy like bailey has shown that. The big issue with keeping a guy like thomas around for that role, is we have Willy. Who is also the highest paid player on our D. He should be the one leading, teaching, and setting the tone. If it doesn't come from him, It simply won't mean nearly as much. A rookie imp DL fresh off NFL looks isn't going to take a guy like Jake nearly as serious as a guy like Willy. 

I agree on schmek. I think he should be groomed into a super utility guy, and really an OL. His motor, ethic and drive are superb. 

Keep in mind, stove was a young inexperienced imp in 19/21. So were guys like brandin bryant, poop johnson, and casey sayles. Experience, isn't a big requirement for performance on the DL. To date in their snaps woods and adams have been our best DL. 

Much of the year we haven't need the canadian DT. 

Its also not adaptation or evolution. We didn't adapt to teams defeating what we ran, and what we are doing isn't progress. Its devolution, we run far simpler less effective line schemes plus handicap our self with the guys we run out. All while having the pieces to fix it. 

 

Keep in mind, what we are running in the secondary is not long term sustainable with out pressure. Down south the fangio 6 scheme is not a base for any team, not even vic fangios. When the argos ran the similar drop 9 match cover scheme it didn't take long for teams to adjust either. At some point, we need to be able to stop the run with out run blitzing, and get sustained pressure. We will need to evolve to be a more dynamic 2nd level team at some point as well. 

I think if lawson was healthy and 100 today, woods would go onto the PR and we'd cut a DL. Lawson replacing thomas would go a long ways, but the rotation needs to be better and the best players still need to be on the active roster. 

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

12 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Guessing both are done. Lawson coming back will be a big help. Hubert was very solid early, they like schmeck and are hooked on Jake. Plus we have Samson on the pr who is a legit prospect. 

50% chance Schmekel signs with Sask. this off-season, what should give him pause for thought is they make no use of Natls. on their O-line, so he'd remain a backup till that changes.

  • Author
40 minutes ago, JCon said:

Our blitzes are like blintzes. Soft and cheesy. 

 

33 minutes ago, Super Duper Negatron said:

I sometimes think our DL is still practicing social distancing.

Lmao both nailed it. 

45 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I'm curious how the knowledgeable posters would rate our current blitz packages 12 games in?

The answers are probably somewhere a plenty in previous posts but it's Friday so its be nice to HardCoreBlue day just in case some weren't aware.

Since the early season struggles we blitz very seldom. Usually its the DB trying to sneak back side. When we get stuck for what ever reason on sending a bunch of guys it really amounts to nothing. Better chance of blocking kicks than productive blitz packages. But atleast the bighill sacrifice blitz is shelved now. 

 I wish we would bring our sam, wil/nikel, and mac to the line more. Show and drop them. Give the offence some thing to think about. Shift the Dl, twist really do a lot more with our pass rush. But we really don't have much on the AR for the BJB to work with. 

4 minutes ago, Fatty Liver said:

50% chance Schmekel signs with Sask. this off-season, what should give him pause for thought is they make no use of Natls. on their O-line, so he'd remain a backup till that changes.

Could be. Idk, once guys are here for a while they tend to lock in. No one else was giving schmek a shot either. Only time will tell. But we do have a couple guys developing on the DL if that does happen. 

 

10 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

I do agree adams isn't ready for thomas rep volume. But I really don't think any of the DL should play that volume either. 

Yeah pretty much. And it's sad because biggie was soo much better than that role. Tbh we could've gone with gauthier and had him do that will dropping biggie back. Dude had crazy range and wheels at his best. 

I hope we see new wrinkles start to emerge in the D. I have great hope for JY. Next year I think we are due for some shaking up of the Def asts. Stanley is more of a analytics guy than lber coach, and I love Patterson but I don't think he's done well coaching pass rushing. Hall could retire any year as well. I think our D really needs a coaching focus on pass rushing, getting off blocks, scraping to the hole/back etc. 

Been a really good discussion in here, I'm glad it's gone well. 

3-4 defense = double moves + deep shots.

3 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

 

Lmao both nailed it. 

Since the early season struggles we blitz very seldom. Usually its the DB trying to sneak back side. When we get stuck for what ever reason on sending a bunch of guys it really amounts to nothing. Better chance of blocking kicks than productive blitz packages. But atleast the bighill sacrifice blitz is shelved now. 

 I wish we would bring our sam, wil/nikel, and mac to the line more. Show and drop them. Give the offence some thing to think about. Shift the Dl, twist really do a lot more with our pass rush. But we really don't have much on the AR for the BJB to work with. 

Could be. Idk, once guys are here for a while they tend to lock in. No one else was giving schmek a shot either. Only time will tell. But we do have a couple guys developing on the DL if that does happen. 

 

I do agree adams isn't ready for thomas rep volume. But I really don't think any of the DL should play that volume either. 

Yeah pretty much. And it's sad because biggie was soo much better than that role. Tbh we could've gone with gauthier and had him do that will dropping biggie back. Dude had crazy range and wheels at his best. 

I hope we see new wrinkles start to emerge in the D. I have great hope for JY. Next year I think we are due for some shaking up of the Def asts. Stanley is more of a analytics guy than lber coach, and I love Patterson but I don't think he's done well coaching pass rushing. Hall could retire any year as well. I think our D really needs a coaching focus on pass rushing, getting off blocks, scraping to the hole/back etc. 

Been a really good discussion in here, I'm glad it's gone well. 

Yup, exactly and not having any specific suggestions based on our current AR talent, there seems to a lot of room for improvement in better achieving this.

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

So what? They don't NEED it. But they forced it and kept more impactful imports on the sidelines to fit it.

exactly....just for a lack of a better word....stupid, 

  • Author
27 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

3-4 defense = double moves + deep shots.

Except basically no one runs a 3-4 in Canada. What we are running on 2nd down is basically 3-1 and 3-0. The 1 backer is frequently spying the qb/rb and playing a shallow zone. 
 The argos mid 2ks bend but don’t break 30 defence was the closest thing, playing a 3-3 at times. But even then they played a lot of match zone quarters which is excellent at defending the deep shot. 

59 minutes ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

First off, thanks for the in depth piece that started this conversation!

Most of the year we haven't needed that extra CDN true...but our coaching/management must feel that extra pick is worth it... I won't profess to know why we keep Thamas is as many reps as we do, and I do agree with both you and Booch that D-line in particular interior guys can and have gone in and had success still "wet behind the ears". 

I also agree that we can/should play better along the D-line..... and I agree that what we are doing especially the way we did it against Sask. last week is not sustainable long term....I expect we will see some variations tomorrow...Harris has been around a long time and Sask. they do have pro coaches ready to counter...

Adams is better than Thomas at least in bursts...yes, can he handle the reps Thomas gets....maybe, maybe not...I cannot speak for his intangibles.....but for some reason and to the chagrin of many posters and fans the coaches feel for some reason at least not yet.... 

I almost see Thomas taking up so many reps and O-lineman similar to Biggies blitzes of past....rarely if ever did his blitz work to garner a big sack or sexy stats....at times it almost looked comical....but the coaches were doing it so he could eat up a blocker or two and allow someone else to do something within the scheme...the idea and design was IMO never intended to have Biggie the "star" in that play call.... it was simply a stroke in the overall painting, that stroke looked goofy on the canvass isolated by itself but once someone took the time to stand back and look at the entire painting across the whole canvas and break it down that stroke was integral the overall look and success of the finished painting....

I enjoy having discussions and learning from some of the other posters on here. now let's go beat them Greenies up......

I don't think it's a case of Thomas eating up a blocker or 2 for othrs to come free....He cant get off a blocl now, and oline guys basically just wash him out and move him out of the way, or render him innefective as he has next to zero abolity now to make a back side play.

Now this would be kind of a benefit if it did allow the pressure or congestion to filter plays to the other dlineman...but more times than not it's just the area of attack for the particular offence, and with little to no  impedement there we get big swaths of yards up the gut....almost the reverse of keying on a key guy to take him out and attack the weak areas...

Now we also have Fox....who is a wide body and can almost play a Nevis role for us...eating up interior lineman but at the same time the stength and atheticism to get off blocks and make plays as well 3 yards in front and behind the L.O.S....here's where we have failed the last 3 yrs in getting that guy to allow the other DT or nose to work....and also work in tandem...as our ends cash in

 

Edited by Booch

1 minute ago, Booch said:

I don't think it's a case of Thomas eating up a blocker or 2 for othrs to come free....He cant get off a blocl now, and oline guys basically just wash him out and move him out of the way, or render him innefective as he has next to zero abolity now to make a back side play.

Now this would be kind of a benefit if it did allow the pressure or congestion to filter plays to the other dlineman...but more times than not it's just the area of attack for the particular offence, and with little to know impedement there we get big swaths of yards up the gut....almost the reverse of keying on a key guy to take him out and attack the weak areas...

Now we also have Fox....who is a wide body and can almost play a Nevis role for us...eating up interior lineman but at the same time the stength and atheticism to get off blocks and make plays as well 3 yards in front and behind the L.O.S....here's where we have failed the last 3 yrs in getting that guy to allow the other DT or nose to work....and also work in tandem...as our ends cash in

 

Fox......ya I admit I completely forgot about him...Is he healthy?

1 minute ago, 3rdand1.5 said:

Fox......ya I admit I completely forgot about him...Is he healthy?

he looks like close...was a shoulder/elbow issue I believe....

Speaking of Lawson , when's he due to return....He's almost missed the whole season so far....Sure could use him

1 hour ago, Stickem said:

Speaking of Lawson , when's he due to return....He's almost missed the whole season so far....Sure could use him

Out for the year was the call early on...

28 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Out for the year was the call early on...

Don't remember 100% but was he not expected to be out all season and possibly into the beginning of next year?

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