Blue Bombers -- 2025/26 Offseason -- Discussion Thread

[Bigblue204]

25 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yes and no. Some positional coaches are far more important, like QB coach. The 2 closest after that are both Line coaches. Line play is the next most important after qbing, but the adjustment to the game up here is big and we don't get polished blockers or pass rushers from the ncaa any more. Pretty much every imp T and pass rusher is a project of one sort or another. 

Having a sub-optimal DL coach when we have JY and Hall running the D isn't the biggest deal. Thats part of why I'm not really worried about Jake. The bonus from him not being on the field any more is way bigger than any loss from having him coach the DL in the worst case. Player success doesn't directly translate to coaching success or failure either. A lot of great coaches have played but couldn't perform at the highest levels of their position group. 

 I would love to have a great DL coach. I would even go more modular with the defensive coaching staff, have a Coverage coach, a front coach (Jake) and a pressure/pass rush coach. Even bringing in some one like that just for camp could be a big boost. Some one who can coach the finer points of rushing and winning battles with technique and athleticism. 

 

 

It's not that they aren't important at all. But the way people are talking about Thomas and acting like the DL has no hope now is over the top. The biggest factor to how well the DL will do will be the talent that is or is not on it.

[Noeller]

6 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's not that they aren't important at all. But the way people are talking about Thomas and acting like the DL has no hope now is over the top. The biggest factor to how well the DL will do will be the talent that is or is not on it.

And how JY chooses to implement them. Jake is going to be an X's and O's guy, explaining the CFL game to players who maybe don't know much about it. Apparently Jake is one of the smartest guys when it comes to the film room, so I'm actually intrigued to see what he can do in that regard. 

Let's be honest, the Americans, they don't need someone to teach them the basics of playing DL... They probably learned more in NCAA than they would here... But what they could use, is a guy who knows the intricacies of CFL football and can explain what they're seeing on tape... Which I'm sure looks way different with an extra man and motion in the backfield and all that. 

It's a basic position coach gig... Way too much stress being used on this. 

[wbbfan]

11 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's not that they aren't important at all. But the way people are talking about Thomas and acting like the DL has no hope now is over the top. The biggest factor to how well the DL will do will be the talent that is or is not on it.

Yeah, you're right. Thomas isn't going to be a make-or-break for us at Dl coach. 

Howard was very solid here, though he had spectacular results a bunch of other places. Young too. But in general, we have really struggled to take talented kids and turn them into highly effective DL. And this is over a long period of time with many coaches. 

We've never gotten back close to having what Richard Harris brought. 

Jake won't be any significant down grade over the past couple years. 

[wbbfan]

8 minutes ago, Noeller said:

And how JY chooses to implement them. Jake is going to be an X's and O's guy, explaining the CFL game to players who maybe don't know much about it. Apparently Jake is one of the smartest guys when it comes to the film room, so I'm actually intrigued to see what he can do in that regard. 

Let's be honest, the Americans, they don't need someone to teach them the basics of playing DL... They probably learned more in NCAA than they would here... But what they could use, is a guy who knows the intricacies of CFL football and can explain what they're seeing on tape... Which I'm sure looks way different with an extra man and motion in the backfield and all that. 

It's a basic position coach gig... Way too much stress being used on this. 

I think if he weren't cut out to be a DL coach, they would've put him in the SnC room. Mos loves his gym stuff. 

Most kids who come up here were 3-4 star in HS at best, with size or athleticism, who went to a big school and didn't play. Then transferred to a small school, played heavily in year 2, and finally found production. Then, immediately came out thinking they'd go to the NFL. It's most often that, or the same path in reverse. 

The ones that come up here normally need consistency and reps. Not just game reps, but 1-on-1 too. dl/ol and wr/db are the positions that by far benefit most of 1-on-1s at all levels of play. It's hard to improve at doing 1-on-1s at other positions. But even without pads, linemen can grow endlessly with more reps against someone able to challenge them. 

DL is one of the most well-supported positions for development, though. Both lines have a tremendous volume of very high-quality camps for any level. Which is why its also important to support it with a good position coach, but having an extra body to support jake in his first camp would be a good idea. he should be fine after that. 

 

 

[johnzo]

23 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Let's be honest, the Americans, they don't need someone to teach them the basics of playing DL... 

another thing I've always wondered, do American DL need coaching up to be ready for Canada?  Like, do the ends have to play differently on the wider field?

[Noeller]

52 minutes ago, johnzo said:

another thing I've always wondered, do American DL need coaching up to be ready for Canada?  Like, do the ends have to play differently on the wider field?

I mean I would personally think so, in that regard... The wider field, the extra man, the motion.... All of that is new and would look strange when watching film. To me, that's where Jake comes in to teach in the film room... 

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

And how JY chooses to implement them. Jake is going to be an X's and O's guy, explaining the CFL game to players who maybe don't know much about it. Apparently Jake is one of the smartest guys when it comes to the film room, so I'm actually intrigued to see what he can do in that regard. 

Let's be honest, the Americans, they don't need someone to teach them the basics of playing DL... They probably learned more in NCAA than they would here... But what they could use, is a guy who knows the intricacies of CFL football and can explain what they're seeing on tape... Which I'm sure looks way different with an extra man and motion in the backfield and all that. 

It's a basic position coach gig... Way too much stress being used on this. 

Yes but it's JAKE THOMAS. JAKE. THOMAS. 

Sorry my PTSD kicks in when his name is raised.

Seriously all the best to him, I'm really glad he's staying with the organization and really really happy it's in a non playing role.

Maybe he will move up the ranks like Wade Miller.

 

[Booch]

3 hours ago, JohnnyAbonny said:

If starting 8 Canadians elsewhere then yeah that would be an ok scenario. 

I just don’t want to see them have to trot out jobbers like Corcoran or Cobb to be every down starters, and as much as I like Demski and Clercius the chance of both of them playing 18 games is slim.  
 

NO reason whatsoever really to start 8 Canadians if you dont have to...If that 8th Canadian is heads and shoulders the best player available sure...if 10 canadian are elite and best players...have at er

We start...and or at times play more than the minimum with guys who had zero business being on the field in that capacity....and thats a direct effect of Osh and his Canadiana crap he likes to peddle to excess...and that needs to be nipped in the bud

12 hours ago, GCn20 said:

I disagree. I hate what we have asked him to do under Younger but he's probably the best suited DE in the league if we are going to continue that.

yup...I'd like to see WJ in camp and in games next yr playing a traditional attack DE role...for 50 to 60% of defensive snaps before making the he's lost it assesment. And when you are asked to play a take 2 steps and then contain and try and take away a passing lane...for sure its gonna look like a giy is taking plays off...And even in his prime WJ was never a real good run stopper and gap filler kind of end mucking it up inside the box...

Rotated as the augment guy with 2 real good studs...and another guy like Bailey as your rotation with Lawson and hopefully 2 legit interior imports....we be just fine

Should he be payed elite DE end top defender money for that...no...and sure he knows it, and could be a good motivator to up his play again in 2026 and show he still has it and up his dollars for 2027...

 

 

 

[Booch]

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

It's not that they aren't important at all. But the way people are talking about Thomas and acting like the DL has no hope now is over the top. The biggest factor to how well the DL will do will be the talent that is or is not on it.

true...and a bit false...How can a guy with minimal technique....zero hand skills and limited athleticism show guys the intricacies of line play.?...That's my issue...sure...read a book...watch other coaching resources ..etc...thats fine and dandy but anyone can do that and doesn't translate to success....If he hadn't picked up anything or refined his skill set with a guy like Roh here who was elite in that regard and ran an ultra elite DL program...how would he be good at transferring any knowledge and skill to others, as when he was a player...couldn't pick anything up from one the best resources he played with?...Nevis too...he picked up nothing from him....Not a hate on Jake as a person and positional coach shouldn't make or break a season.....but man o man...what a lazy choice, and when yu really look at it....there were tons of better options...I sure there other "smart" guys out there and he's not the outlier

Considering JT still wanted to play they should have Kolo'd him too and seen if anyone offered him a camp invite...and then if nothing panned out find a role for him if Osh missed his pet

1 hour ago, johnzo said:

another thing I've always wondered, do American DL need coaching up to be ready for Canada?  Like, do the ends have to play differently on the wider field?

 

23 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I mean I would personally think so, in that regard... The wider field, the extra man, the motion.... All of that is new and would look strange when watching film. To me, that's where Jake comes in to teach in the film room... 

End is probably the easiest DL position to migrate into for an Import coming up here....and the athletic ones and ones with elite hand skills and technique can eat right away as they not contending with nads on them instantly

[HardCoreBlue]

2 minutes ago, Booch said:

NO reason whatsoever really to start 8 Canadians if you dont have to...If that 8th Canadian is heads and shoulders the best player available sure...if 10 canadian are elite and best players...have at er

We start...and or at times play more than the minimum with guys who had zero business being on the field in that capacity....and thats a direct effect of Osh and his Canadiana crap he likes to peddle to excess...and that needs to be nipped in the bud

yup...I'd like to see WJ in camp and in games next yr playing a traditional attack DE role...for 50 to 60% of defensive snaps before making the he's lost it assesment. And when you are asked to play a take 2 steps and then contain and try and take away a passing lane...for sure its gonna look like a giy is taking plays off...And even in his prime WJ was never a real good run stopper and gap filler kind of end mucking it up inside the box...

Rotated as the augment guy with 2 real good studs...and another guy like Bailey as your rotation with Lawson and hopefully 2 legit interior imports....we be just fine

Should he be payed elite DE end top defender money for that...no...and sure he knows it, and could be a good motivator to up his play again in 2026 and show he still has it and up his dollars for 2027...

 

 

 

I'm assuming it was a small sample size but last year when WJ did play a traditional attack DE role was he a) being disciplined to that traditional role? and b) if no he wasn't be disciplined, why not? and c) if yes he was be disciplined, was he effective?

I'm not convinced that it was all on Younger in how he wanted/asked him to play.

[Noeller]

18 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Yes but it's JAKE THOMAS. JAKE. THOMAS. 

Sorry my PTSD kicks in when his name is raised.

Seriously all the best to him, I'm really glad he's staying with the organization and really really happy it's in a non playing role.

Maybe he will move up the ranks like Wade Miller.

 

One of the pieces I read after his retirement announcement had a quote from someone (maybe Osh?) saying he wouldn't be surprised if Jake is a future CFL GM. Just a really super smart dude. 

[Brandon]

2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

Honestly I don't know. And that's kinda my point. Most of us won't know/remember even though that was the Best DL we've seen in a long long time. Positional coaches aren't something to be stressing about.

I don't think anyone on here believes Jake Thomas will have any sort of impact on how the team plays.   Its more of the mentality of this club having bizarre attachments with certain players for no reason at all.    He's being hired because of loyalty and a nice guy... clearly they didn't scout and attempt to find the best person available.  Its possible that Jake Thomas has a genius football mind and that we are over looking the hire.   But for myself I think this is a pity hire.

I'd rather they hire a  young guy with a mind for the game who could learn under our other coaches and potentially be upgraded as a DC or HC down the road.  

[Bigblue204]

28 minutes ago, Booch said:

true...and a bit false...How can a guy with minimal technique....zero hand skills and limited athleticism show guys the intricacies of line play.?...That's my issue...sure...read a book...watch other coaching resources ..etc...thats fine and dandy but anyone can do that and doesn't translate to success....If he hadn't picked up anything or refined his skill set with a guy like Roh here who was elite in that regard and ran an ultra elite DL program...how would he be good at transferring any knowledge and skill to others, as when he was a player...couldn't pick anything up from one the best resources he played with?...Nevis too...he picked up nothing from him....Not a hate on Jake as a person and positional coach shouldn't make or break a season.....but man o man...what a lazy choice, and when yu really look at it....there were tons of better options...I sure there other "smart" guys out there and he's not the outlier

Considering JT still wanted to play they should have Kolo'd him too and seen if anyone offered him a camp invite...and then if nothing panned out find a role for him if Osh missed his pet

 

End is probably the easiest DL position to migrate into for an Import coming up here....and the athletic ones and ones with elite hand skills and technique can eat right away as they not contending with nads on them instantly

If we're relying on guys who need to learn how different pass rush moves work, I'd suggest that's a scouting problem more than a coaching one. Guys are learning those techniques in Highschool in todays world, never mind college. Sure there are tricks to the trade but he's not there to develop guys from the ground up.

[Tracker]

9 hours ago, GCn20 said:

The overwhelming majority of position coaches in our league are ex-players who retired and had zero coaching experience beforehand. Your complaint is unfounded. Jake's not our DC for cripes sakes.

You can count the winning HCs of 4 out of the last 5 Grey Cups among them

Osh, Mace, and Dinwiddie all retired and went straight into coaching. 

 

 

Those players who successfully transitioned into coaching were good at their positions, and Thomas was barely adequate when at his best and had no techique except bull-rushing. When that failed, he simply stood there and hoped the play would come to him. In the last couple of years, standing there was his go-to technique.

[Bigblue204]

Just now, Tracker said:

Those players who successfully transitioned into coaching were good at their positions, and Thomas was barely adequate when at his best and had no techique except bull-rushing. When that failed, he simply stood there and hoped the play would come to him. In the last couple of years, standing there was his go-to technique.

Dinwiddie is well known for being an elite CFL quarterback of course. And lets not forget the incredible play of Danny Maciocia, who's play undoubtably propelled him to his first CFL HC gig. I won't even begin to mention Scott Milanovichs fantastic career as an NFL QB where he completed 66.6 percent of his passes for a total of 9 yards.

[johnzo]

10 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Those players who successfully transitioned into coaching were good at their positions

you keep saying this

[HardCoreBlue]

6 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Dinwiddie is well known for being an elite CFL quarterback of course. And lets not forget the incredible play of Danny Maciocia, who's play undoubtably propelled him to his first CFL HC gig. I won't even begin to mention Scott Milanovichs fantastic career as an NFL QB where he completed 66.6 percent of his passes for a total of 9 yards.

[Booch]

5 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Dinwiddie is well known for being an elite CFL quarterback of course. And lets not forget the incredible play of Danny Maciocia, who's play undoubtably propelled him to his first CFL HC gig. I won't even begin to mention Scott Milanovichs fantastic career as an NFL QB where he completed 66.6 percent of his passes for a total of 9 yards.

Those guys also had coached previous to their HC gig...for yrs...Dinwiddie was also trained in the U.S in the NCAA under more experienced and legit systems than Acadia U....bit of a difference

14 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

If we're relying on guys who need to learn how different pass rush moves work, I'd suggest that's a scouting problem more than a coaching one. Guys are learning those techniques in Highschool in todays world, never mind college. Sure there are tricks to the trade but he's not there to develop guys from the ground up.

Umm....guys coming from U.S into Canadian Pro ball do have a lot of learning and technique refining to adapt to how to play the Canadian game...especially in the interior...and yea a lot of guys too in the CFL and NFL for that matter...a lot of times moreso in NFL,  come in very raw and have relied on their god given talent against lesser talented guys in University to overcome technical weakness....hand skills..etc..So technique drills and refining skills to adapt to the new game are pretty key on the DLine

How's a guy with limited at very best skills in that regard teach it, by showing, and or critiquing what they doing wrong, or how to correct it?

[Bigblue204]

7 minutes ago, Booch said:

Those guys also had coached previous to their HC gig...for yrs...Dinwiddie was also trained in the U.S in the NCAA under more experienced and legit systems than Acadia U....bit of a difference

Sure, but that wasn't the argument being made. Tracker said they were good at their positions. Danny M never even played pro.

[bearpants]

19 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

I think its time to move on from Jefferson. He's going to be 35, he's had declining production the past two seasons, he takes plays off and he costs too much money. Too be honest, he seems to get a pass from many here, while other players don't.

I think it has to do with the fact that a DE can take on a lesser role... when you're talking about aging vets at S, LT, MLB, and QB... those are guys taking 100% of snaps... an aging DE can be employed in a lesser role as a rotational player... I believe that's where most of us see him now...

9 hours ago, GCn20 said:

The overwhelming majority of position coaches in our league are ex-players who retired and had zero coaching experience beforehand. Your complaint is unfounded. Jake's not our DC for cripes sakes.

You can count the winning HCs of 4 out of the last 5 Grey Cups among them

Osh, Mace, and Dinwiddie all retired and went straight into coaching. 

This is probably nothing more than a gut feeling... but Jake strikes me as exactly the kind of guy that was an average/below average player but will make a great coach... Also, O'Shea did go straight into coaching... I believe he was in a sales gig when Toronto brought him in to coach ST.... but point still stands

24 minutes ago, Tracker said:

Those players who successfully transitioned into coaching were good at their positions, and Thomas was barely adequate when at his best and had no techique except bull-rushing. When that failed, he simply stood there and hoped the play would come to him. In the last couple of years, standing there was his go-to technique.

I'm confused.... do you genuinely think this is true?... there's literally dozens, if not hundreds, of examples of bad players who have made great coaches...

[CrazyCanuck89]

2 hours ago, johnzo said:

another thing I've always wondered, do American DL need coaching up to be ready for Canada?  Like, do the ends have to play differently on the wider field?

They do with being a yard off the ball.  Plus the field side DE has alot more space to cover to contain the QB.  Not to mention DEs drop into zone coverage more frequently in the CFL.

[HardCoreBlue]

56 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Sure, but that wasn't the argument being made. Tracker said they were good at their positions. Danny M never even played pro.

I'm thinking he never played anything with anyone. On an unrelated note, not a big fan of DM.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I'm assuming it was a small sample size but last year when WJ did play a traditional attack DE role was he a) being disciplined to that traditional role? and b) if no he wasn't be disciplined, why not? and c) if yes he was be disciplined, was he effective?

I'm not convinced that it was all on Younger in how he wanted/asked him to play.

 

We haven't seen disciplined WJ in a long time. But when JJ was here with the support inside both needed, WJ struggled when JJ wasn't on the field. Media types tried to invert that, because WJ was the guy who got credit and MODP nods. But post JJ, wj has been the worst version of him self, save for 2-3 games. Jeffcoat had 8 sacks in his last season here, where he played 14 games. WJ had 11 that year. Since then, WJ has played 35 games and totaled 9 sacks. 

Wj has always struggled with discipline. Once the ball is snapped, he relies heavily on instincts and gambling. This is most visible in how frequently teams have run read option off him and just torch him routinely, also his inability to get contain on most QBs, and how frequently he misses tackles on the QB when he gets into a good position. Despite his age and success, he has always been low on field discipline. 

When he was most effective in the past, he wasn't allowed to play rover. But seems to have been able to do it as much as he wants the last two years. 

What he has always needed to succeed is 1-on-1s. With guys like Sayles/Stove/Drake and Jeffcoat in the past, WJ didn't see a ton of double teams here. But ever since we moved on from Sayles and JJ, WJ has been the focal point of blocking schemes. And teams have realized that if you double him and get him roughed up, he will stop driving his rush lane. You can't put that genie back in the bottle. Teams are going to run read option on him in the run game, and double him with the pass. 

The way to make him the most effective he can be is to take away the other team's ability to game plan for him. The easiest way to do that is to take him out of the starting lineup. Rotate him as the 3rd end, and move him around. The only other way would be to surround him with ideal talent that requires double teams and support blocks. But that won't release him from his deficiencies in the run game. 

 

Could he be effective as a standard DE? I don't think so. He could've when he was younger. But I don't think he could now. He doesn't have the motor you need to fight through and keep pursuing disruption in the back field. We could make a useful role that is not a rover with him. It would have to start by limiting his snaps, though. 

 

This is really late for WJ not to be resigned. I suspect it's going to be a Jenarion Grant play. Let him hit FA, see where the market is, then try to get him back on a discount. 

[rebusrankin]

Flat out, does anybody here seriously think that WJ is going to take a cut from $200,000 to say $120,000-$140,000? Secondly does anybody see the club actually limiting him to 50% of the snaps if here?

[bryan35]

1 hour ago, CrazyCanuck89 said:

They do with being a yard off the ball.  Plus the field side DE has alot more space to cover to contain the QB.  Not to mention DEs drop into zone coverage more frequently in the CFL.

The O tackles in the NFL tend to drop back a yard back. Their helmet has to be inline with the centre or something like that. Essentially they leave a yard space between them and the DE/RE.