Permission to talk: Is O'Shea leaving?

[bigg jay]

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

If MOS has equal say to Walters then that is Walters failing. He is the GM, if he lets other people call the shots on his job, despite reservations he has, is he really doing his job well? I wouldn't think so. I'm not suggesting that MOS didn't have roster input, all coaches do. However, any GM that lets their HC have the final say on matters of contract and roster build that they disagree with should be fired. Simple as that. You or I, if we had a boss, could go to this person and make personell decisions? Nope. Not the way it works.

We have no idea how they came to that arrangement though - that could have been something they (Miller, MOS & Walters) sat down and discussed when negotiating a new deal.  Toronto is reportedly offering MOS significant control over personnel if he goes there and Dinwiddie also said he was doing some GM duties for the Argos so this may not be as abnormal as you think.

[Booch]

GM is responsible with his staff of scouts to bring in talent....not "final say"

as well....as it goes with all teams...The HC will parlay the type of player he wants...who he wants to retain, go after in FA etc..etc...and G.M and his team will accommodate that best they can...They not gonna bring in guys, or resign guys/not resign guys that go against what the HC wants or claims he needs..

This roster garbage and fail is all on Osh as he is the the guy who puts the roster together....and the only fail by Walter's is the blind trust and believing in what Osh was saying....He should have tied the can to him at end of last yr, or as this season unfolded and the issues that were responsible again for us listing badly and still sinking...canned him before labour day...That's Walter's fail...and to an extent Miller's too

Players were brought in...and cut...many showed real well in camp and in pre-season and above all had potential and upside...youth on their side...but Osh went another direction...kept garbage...aged out....poor talent and nobody experienced to back them up...making it worse

Could the guys released made a difference and been better....we can never know but very likely would have because they couldn't have been worse than a lot of what we retained....even guys who were kept, were better than a lot of the guys that Osh choose to play and align his beliefs in...

[GCn20]

17 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

We have no idea how they came to that arrangement though - that could have been something they (Miller, MOS & Walters) sat down and discussed when negotiating a new deal.  Toronto is reportedly offering MOS significant control over personnel if he goes there and Dinwiddie also said he was doing some GM duties for the Argos so this may not be as abnormal as you think.

First of all citing Dinwiddie as an example is not really applicable. Pinball was hired and given the GM title in name only, He is a figurehead. His GMing is pretty much completely hands off. Murphy/Dinwiddie were doing it all for years and that was well known. There is no way a team can function with two guys having equal say. One guy has to be the bottom line or else you will miss out on more players than you get. 

6 minutes ago, Booch said:

GM is responsible with his staff of scouts to bring in talent....not "final say"

as well....as it goes with all teams...The HC will parlay the type of player he wants...who he wants to retain, go after in FA etc..etc...and G.M and his team will accommodate that best they can...They not gonna bring in guys, or resign guys/not resign guys that go against what the HC wants or claims he needs..

This roster garbage and fail is all on Osh as he is the the guy who puts the roster together....and the only fail by Walter's is the blind trust and believing in what Osh was saying....He should have tied the can to him at end of last yr, or as this season unfolded and the issues that were responsible again for us listing badly and still sinking...canned him before labour day...That's Walter's fail...and to an extent Miller's too

Players were brought in...and cut...many showed real well in camp and in pre-season and above all had potential and upside...youth on their side...but Osh went another direction...kept garbage...aged out....poor talent and nobody experienced to back them up...making it worse

Could the guys released made a difference and been better....we can never know but very likely would have because they couldn't have been worse than a lot of what we retained....even guys who were kept, were better than a lot of the guys that Osh choose to play and align his beliefs in...

Who they bring in is 100% final say. They sign the guys. I'm not excusing how MOS used the roster he was provided, I am simply stating the fact that some guys that were well beyond their best before were given contracts to come back or extended. That's 100% the GM's decision to make. As a GM, if you have a HC that you know is not using the talent you are providing properly then you remedy that in the offseason by taking the obstacles out of his own way. No one can force Walters to sign JT to three extensions and no one else can register that contract with the league, as an example. This isn't me trying to defend MOS, just putting the reality out there to everyone who thinks that getting rid of him solves all our problems. It doesn't. Both men need to go. They were both equally responsible for JT seeing the field this season. Walters is the bartender who is giving a drunk guy another beer when he knows he should cut him off. If you have a coach like MOS who is deathly loyal beyond reason you cannot enable him to the fault of the team.

Edited 2 hours ago by GCn20

[M.Silverback]

15 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I'm not defending MOS here, I am simply stating that KW facilitated and allowed all of this to go on. He is every bit as guilty as MOS for Jake Thomas still playing. Every bit. All coaches have players they tend to live in the past with, most competent GMs make that player go away to save the coach from himself. The coach can only play the players the GM provides. Don't want JT playing, don't sign JT. That was always KW's choice to make.

You make a valid point - if JT wasn't signed by Walters, problem solved. I think most here agree Walters has failed in talent acquistion and retention. To me his biggest failure was allowing Osh too much input into this area. In your scenario, given how Osh touts "his guys" to the media it wouldn't surprise me if he lobbied Walters hard to resign JT and other vets who should have been gone. I have heard Walters say in the media that he and Osh have had some heated player debates before, and at times Osh "pounded the table" for certain players. I think he was referencing the CFL draft, but if that's the dynamic, it's not limited to the draft.

Simple solution, and the right solution, would be to say no. To do your job as a GM, thank the head coach for their input, and remind them that you are the boss. Generally speaking that's how successful pro teams in all sports work. Collaborative, but a head coach should stick to coaching. I don't think it's happening here. Walters and maybe Miller too have failed in that regard. 

[GCn20]

4 minutes ago, M.Silverback said:

You make a valid point - if JT wasn't signed by Walters, problem solved. I think most here agree Walters has failed in talent acquistion and retention. To me his biggest failure was allowing Osh too much input into this area. In your scenario, given how Osh touts "his guys" to the media it wouldn't surprise me if he lobbied Walters hard to resign JT and other vets who should have been gone. I have heard Walters say in the media that he and Osh have had some heated player debates before, and at times Osh "pounded the table" for certain players. I think he was referencing the CFL draft, but if that's the dynamic, it's not limited to the draft.

Simple solution, and the right solution, would be to say no. To do your job as a GM, thank the head coach for their input, and remind them that you are the boss. Generally speaking that's how successful pro teams in all sports work. Collaborative, but a head coach should stick to coaching. I don't think it's happening here. Walters and maybe Miller too have failed in that regard. 

This is exactly how I see it. I'm not happy that MOS showed far too much loyalty, but I am also not happy that Walters didn't do his job and save MOS from himself at times. IF MOS fist pounding changed Walters mind on personnel when he felt strongly the other way then he made the conscious choice to not do his job properly.

Edited 2 hours ago by GCn20

[Booch]

2 minutes ago, M.Silverback said:

You make a valid point - if JT wasn't signed by Walters, problem solved. I think most here agree Walters has failed in talent acquistion and retention. To me his biggest failure was allowing Osh too much input into this area. In your scenario, given how Osh touts "his guys" to the media it wouldn't surprise me if he lobbied Walters hard to resign JT and other vets who should have been gone. I have heard Walters say in the media that he and Osh have had some heated player debates before, and at times Osh "pounded the table" for certain players. I think he was referencing the CFL draft, but if that's the dynamic, it's not limited to the draft.

Simple solution, and the right solution, would be to say no. To do your job as a GM, thank the head coach for their input, and remind them that you are the boss. Generally speaking that's how successful pro teams in all sports work. Collaborative, but a head coach should stick to coaching. I don't think it's happening here. Walters and maybe Miller too have failed in that regard. 

but if the HC at end of yr and in FA tells his G.M this is who he wants....yadda yadda yadda....the G.M should trust in him....not create rifts....Walter's and Osh are both to blame....100%....Walter's more so in not being more the "boss"....but then that also falls on Miller too

End of the day Osh picks the roster, and cant be argued he picks some bad choices....so it's his team...he also makes the dumb decisions and poor judgement....in charge of the unprepared team more times than we can count, and rarely able to answer with adjustments....Walter's biggest blinder was not dumping him last yr...lesson learned I guess

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

This is exactly how I see it. I'm not happy that MOS showed far too much loyalty, but I am also not happy that Walters didn't do his job and save MOS from himself at times. IF MOS fist pounding changed Walters mind on personnel when he felt strongly the other way then he made the conscious choice to not do his job properly.

Agree....and thats exactly what happened here...Osh was given to much currency and rope due to a few cup wins...and Walter's stopped being the damn good G.M he was....And if like you said there was the stand-off....he should have canned him after the debacle of 2024.....or by labour day this yr

 

[M.Silverback]

1 minute ago, Booch said:

but if the HC at end of yr and in FA tells his G.M this is who he wants....yadda yadda yadda....the G.M should trust in him....not create rifts....Walter's and Osh are both to blame....100%....Walter's more so in not being more the "boss"....but then that also falls on Miller too

End of the day Osh picks the roster, and cant be argued he picks some bad choices....so it's his team...he also makes the dumb decisions and poor judgement....in charge of the unprepared team more times than we can count, and rarely able to answer with adjustments....Walter's biggest blinder was not dumping him last yr...lesson learned I guess

I'm 90% in agreement with everything you said. Disagree that any GM should "trust" any HC about who he wants in free agency, etc. Not his job, not their skill sets. You know well that all coaches have biases, friendships with players, loyalties. And some of that is necessary. Sometimes it gets dysfunctional, like Osh. A pro sports GM is about talent acquistion, retention, cap management, projecting 1 year and 5 years down the road. Not happy, clappy feelings bonding with players like Osh seems to have as his main focus. It's about winning championships. Again, a GM should say thanks for your input HC, now let me do my job and try to build a championship roster and coaching staff, which may or may not include you. 

[Booch]

Just now, M.Silverback said:

I'm 90% in agreement with everything you said. Disagree that any GM should "trust" any HC about who he wants in free agency, etc. Not his job, not their skill sets. You know well that all coaches have biases, friendships with players, loyalties. And some of that is necessary. Sometimes it gets dysfunctional, like Osh. A pro sports GM is about talent acquistion, retention, cap management, projecting 1 year and 5 years down the road. Not happy, clappy feelings bonding with players like Osh seems to have as his main focus. It's about winning championships. Again, a GM should say thanks for your input HC, now let me do my job and try to build a championship roster and coaching staff, which may or may not include you. 

well you should have some trust, as that's who you hired, and Osh did sell him and Miller on being the guy to carry out their vision

But...how things went since 2023....that trust and rope should have been reeled in, and the hard questions asked....I think that is where we went off the rails.....and need to get that back on track...we are not in desperation mode and really are just a few lil tweeks away from being right back where we were....but not under this current set-up

But when the G.M and H.C are buds....who had some early success together...muddies the water...can't go down that road again

[HardCoreBlue]

17 minutes ago, M.Silverback said:

You make a valid point - if JT wasn't signed by Walters, problem solved. I think most here agree Walters has failed in talent acquistion and retention. To me his biggest failure was allowing Osh too much input into this area. In your scenario, given how Osh touts "his guys" to the media it wouldn't surprise me if he lobbied Walters hard to resign JT and other vets who should have been gone. I have heard Walters say in the media that he and Osh have had some heated player debates before, and at times Osh "pounded the table" for certain players. I think he was referencing the CFL draft, but if that's the dynamic, it's not limited to the draft.

Simple solution, and the right solution, would be to say no. To do your job as a GM, thank the head coach for their input, and remind them that you are the boss. Generally speaking that's how successful pro teams in all sports work. Collaborative, but a head coach should stick to coaching. I don't think it's happening here. Walters and maybe Miller too have failed in that regard. 

If MOS pounded the desk for JT cuz he wanted him to play in 2025, I think if I'm Walters I'm rolling the game tape come 2026. 

[GCn20]

17 minutes ago, Booch said:

but if the HC at end of yr and in FA tells his G.M this is who he wants....yadda yadda yadda....the G.M should trust in him....not create rifts....Walter's and Osh are both to blame....100%....Walter's more so in not being more the "boss"....but then that also falls on Miller too

End of the day Osh picks the roster, and cant be argued he picks some bad choices....so it's his team...he also makes the dumb decisions and poor judgement....in charge of the unprepared team more times than we can count, and rarely able to answer with adjustments....Walter's biggest blinder was not dumping him last yr...lesson learned I guess

Agree....and thats exactly what happened here...Osh was given to much currency and rope due to a few cup wins...and Walter's stopped being the damn good G.M he was....And if like you said there was the stand-off....he should have canned him after the debacle of 2024.....or by labour day this yr

 

Didn't necessarily have to can him, but he absolutely had to make the tough calls and let MOS know the pecking order.

3 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

If MOS pounded the desk for JT cuz he wanted him to play in 2025, I think if I'm Walters I'm rolling the game tape come 2026. 

Exactly. Sometimes the GM has to say, Mike I don't agree with you and at the end of the day this is my call to make. MOS is a professional, I highly doubt he expected to win every argument.

11 minutes ago, Booch said:

well you should have some trust, as that's who you hired, and Osh did sell him and Miller on being the guy to carry out their vision

But...how things went since 2023....that trust and rope should have been reeled in, and the hard questions asked....I think that is where we went off the rails.....and need to get that back on track...we are not in desperation mode and really are just a few lil tweeks away from being right back where we were....but not under this current set-up

But when the G.M and H.C are buds....who had some early success together...muddies the water...can't go down that road again

Lets just say that for every flaw that certain players showed and were overlooked by MOS, Walters ignored the flaws that were quite apparent with MOS. There was no bottom line.

[rebusrankin]

Walters also drafted two rookies in Smith and Shay who really didn't get reps. That's on MOS. Its worse when you see others picked in the first round who started, you know basically all other high picks such as White, Alford, Fortin, Shanks, Shad, Finlay, Veresuk.

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

Walters also drafted two rookies in Smith and Shay who really didn't get reps. That's on MOS. Its worse when you see others picked in the first round who started, you know basically all other high picks such as White, Alford, Fortin, Shanks, Shad, Finlay, Veresuk.

Davis Alexander's hamstring may never recover from Tiger Shanks reps.

[kelownabomberfan]

15 hours ago, Booch said:

Bud Grant left for NFL tho...im sure if he stayed he would have eventually flamed out at somepoint tho...as its inevitable 

He was kind of flaming out by the end too, losing to Saskatchewan in the West final in 1966.

[GCn20]

6 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Davis Alexander's hamstring may never recover from Tiger Shanks reps.

Yea....I don't particularly see a rookie draft pick not getting many reps as a bad thing necessarily. Some teams do and some teams don't and I am just fine with a slow roll out if that is what a coach chooses. We have no idea whether Shay or Smith would have helped or hindered us by getting regular reps, and I don't see our LBing corps as a particular area of weakness where we had to roll the dice and find out.

If the mafia are all back this year, I would hope that it is after Wade Miller has driven home that their jobs depend on better job performance this year. 

[kelownabomberfan]

2 hours ago, bigg jay said:

We have no idea how they came to that arrangement though - that could have been something they (Miller, MOS & Walters) sat down and discussed when negotiating a new deal.  Toronto is reportedly offering MOS significant control over personnel if he goes there and Dinwiddie also said he was doing some GM duties for the Argos so this may not be as abnormal as you think.

we may see the first "All Canadian" team in CFL history....

[Noeller]

Some mildly interesting stuff on Bonfire last night....

Bauming indicated that O'Shea very much "runs things at Princess Auto Stadium"... That he's the one who is in charge of everything.

Re: Kent Austin and why he would leave a cushy job in the NCAA, apparently he has expressed interest to people in the CFL about coming back again, according to Farhan Lalji. Farhan seemed to think he'd be a good fit in Winnipeg having played here before, but also said that Jordan Younger would be a good choice as well, and might be the only way to keep him from returning to Toronto with Osh. 

[rebusrankin]

5 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Yea....I don't particularly see a rookie draft pick not getting many reps as a bad thing necessarily. Some teams do and some teams don't and I am just fine with a slow roll out if that is what a coach chooses. We have no idea whether Shay or Smith would have helped or hindered us by getting regular reps, and I don't see our LBing corps as a particular area of weakness where we had to roll the dice and find out.

If the mafia are all back this year, I would hope that it is after Wade Miller has driven home that their jobs depend on better job performance this year. 

Sure, several teams had rookies starting and playing well but MOS is right. 

[bigg jay]

2 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

we may see the first "All Canadian" team in CFL history....

And all ex-military too!

[kelownabomberfan]

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Some mildly interesting stuff on Bonfire last night....

Bauming indicated that O'Shea very much "runs things at Princess Auto Stadium"... That he's the one who is in charge of everything.

Re: Kent Austin and why he would leave a cushy job in the NCAA, apparently he has expressed interest to people in the CFL about coming back again, according to Farhan Lalji. Farhan seemed to think he'd be a good fit in Winnipeg having played here before, but also said that Jordan Younger would be a good choice as well, and might be the only way to keep him from returning to Toronto with Osh. 

The only guy I want to see follow Osh to Toronto is Jake Thomas....and maybe Kolo too...

[Noeller]

I think there will be a mass exodus to follow him wherever he goes.... But it remains to be seen if that isn't necessarily a good thing.