Bombers at Als early chat

[HardCoreBlue]

9 minutes ago, Booch said:

they dont ripen with no playtime...if anything they stagnate and it slows their development

And interesting you mentioned those 2...guys allowed to get at er right out of the gate...learn as they go....Verasuk is another being afforded the same opportunity...DeQuay before them....Richards got a ton of playtime but got hurt....thats to just name a few

Nobody ripens in practice.....just doesnt happen

Practice speed to game speed not even close.

[Booch]

3 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Practice speed to game speed not even close.

nor is intensity...physicality....having to react...list goes on and on

you cant get in to game condition either in practice...not in this day and age

[GCn20]

42 minutes ago, Booch said:

nor is intensity...physicality....having to react...list goes on and on

you cant get in to game condition either in practice...not in this day and age

It isn't all about physicality or speed as to how a team develops a player.  The mental aspect of the game is big. The comfort level, the confidence level. Like I said I am not against anyone getting reps in garbage time but to throw a guy into the fire as a first year pro is not a great idea unless they have demonstrated they are someone you just can't keep out of the lineup. We don't even do that, nor does any CFL team, for the vast majority of IMP guys who are far more polished and game ready. Are their rookies who break through, of course, but the number league wide is small compared to how many end up tossed away.

Edited 11 hours ago by GCn20

[bigg jay]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Ya I'm more than happy to let the two LB kids ripen... We're not in a rush with them, especially if they are Cam Judge and Alex Singleton.....

3 years can go pretty fast without really seeing anything a ton from them if we go that route.  Personally I'd like to get more than a season & a half from a top draft pick.

Year 1 - ST only

Year 2 - some rotation on D

Year 3 - maybe starting?

Year 4 - potentially gone.

 

1 hour ago, Booch said:

they dont ripen with no playtime...if anything they stagnate and it slows their development

And interesting you mentioned those 2...guys allowed to get at er right out of the gate...learn as they go....Verasuk is another being afforded the same opportunity...DeQuay before them....Richards got a ton of playtime but got hurt....thats to just name a few

Nobody ripens in practice.....just doesnt happen

Not quite the same situation as Judge & Singleton.  Judge only played 3 games (didn't record anything but ST tackles) in year 1 before getting hurt and missing the rest of the year.  He rotated in quite a bit in year 2 before becoming a starter in year 3.  Maybe it would have been sooner had he not been hurt but we'll never know.   The 3 year scenario I mentioned above is exactly how it played out for Sask with Judge - 1 year as a starter and then he bolted as soon as he could.  I hope that's not the case with our guys.

Singleton did get real playing time in year one with Calgary but that was after spending 2015 on NFL PR's so it wasn't a straight transition from college to seeing the field as a pro.

[HardCoreBlue]

17 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

It isn't all about physicality or speed as to how a team develops a player.  The mental aspect of the game is big. The comfort level, the confidence level. Like I said I am not against anyone getting reps in garbage time but to throw a guy into the fire as a first year pro is not a great idea unless they have demonstrated they are someone you just can't keep out of the lineup. We don't even do that, nor does any CFL team, for the vast majority of IMP guys who are far more polished and game ready. Are their rookies who break through, of course, but the number league wide is small compared to how many end up tossed away.

Right which emphasizes the need for some game reps obviously with some thought before doling them out. There is a risk of course, i.e., player crapping the bed when their number is called ergo confidence hit but that's what it's all about, that's how one grows, develops not just in sport but in life generally.

[Tracker]

3 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Look, I'm all in favor of a few reps here and there. However, not until the coaches feel comfortable with it. We have 3 years of these players being locked in, there is absolutely no reason to rush things. NAT draft picks are the one type of player that we can ripen on the vine.  Yea...we could insert them into blow outs, but honestly those are practice reps as well.

The big problem we have is the stubbornness  of coach(es) in using the same, obviously overmatched players again and again rather than giving potentially better players onto the field. It is not universal, as yet, but there is a growing lack of confidence in most of our coaching staff. If we here feel this way, the players must as well.

[rebusrankin]

Different position I know but we gave a bunch of reps to a guy in Kornelson that we just cut.

[17to85]

So I think with guys like our rookie lb draftees... is that we are also using a bunch of American linebackers as special teams depth and the first in line backups. It's just too many linebackers and if we drafted these guys with a mind to having them become starters then what purpose does blocking them with Americans do? They should be the primary backups.

[Noeller]

6 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So I think with guys like our rookie lb draftees... is that we are also using a bunch of American linebackers as special teams depth and the first in line backups. It's just too many linebackers and if we drafted these guys with a mind to having them become starters then what purpose does blocking them with Americans do? They should be the primary backups.

That's fair... I think rushing them to start and play full reps is unnecessary right now, but giving them SOME reps could definitely be helpful in Year 1. 

[BomberBall.]

1 minute ago, Noeller said:

That's fair... I think rushing them to start and play full reps is unnecessary right now, but giving them SOME reps could definitely be helpful in Year 1. 

Right.  I don’t think anyone is advocating rushing them into the lineup and starting them, but I can’t see how people would be against giving them a handful of reps each game and maybe a few more in garbage time.  IMO that would really help their development.

[bryan35]

39 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Different position I know but we gave a bunch of reps to a guy in Kornelson that we just cut.

Or you could say he was evaluated thoroughly and promptly released.

[Tracker]

23 minutes ago, BomberBall. said:

Right.  I don’t think anyone is advocating rushing them into the lineup and starting them, but I can’t see how people would be against giving them a handful of reps each game and maybe a few more in garbage time.  IMO that would really help their development.

I offer you as an example out new starting safety, Cam Allen. He shone in training camp, had great credentials, and yet it took a half-season for him to be given a chance. And then he showed he belonged. (shakes head).

[rebusrankin]

There's roughly 60 reps a game on D. If Shay and Smith were playing say 12 reps a game that's only 20%. I can't see how them playing would hurt the club but I can see how it would help aid their development and help the team. If I am wrong, explain why.

[HardCoreBlue]

2 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

There's roughly 60 reps a game on D. If Shay and Smith were playing say 12 reps a game that's only 20%. I can't see how them playing would hurt the club but I can see how it would help aid their development and help the team. If I am wrong, explain why.

I think the bigger question I have is what needs to happen (other than injury, rest, game already decided) for MOS and his coaching staff to substitute a starter for a dressed depth player? I'd enjoy hearing the real answers because it will vary per position, per player, per junction in the game/season. I'm assuming head coaches and their coordinators will have similarities in their approaches but also have their own unique and different nuances and philosophies.

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Practice speed to game speed not even close.

especially in an era of barely any contact practices 

[Booch]

Our Canadian LB's...Save for the holdovers Gautier and Cadwallader have all the metrics you want, and should be getting reps to slowly season them into the defence..Like other's said they don't need to be starting, but situational reps, rotation, games where outcome is pretty much a forgone conclusion is a definite must have, thats how you get guys either accustomed and ready...or determine that they not good enough.

Nothing can replicate game reps on a multitude of levels, and you can only develop so much in practice, and there a limit to what you absorb from watching...you need to start to apply it, be it baby steps, or thrown right in...we fail to do that, and then when we do run into injury issues, we basically are forced to play injured people cause we have zero faith in the backup....they have zero experience (cause they never took any reps) We have seen this play out here every yr since 2021

Osh has his favorites, and his own personal reason's for it and just cause he is a HC doesn't mean it's the best, or right option.

This is also how good teams over a real long time turn over their roster and keep things fluid and with potential...they don't wait yrs with zero evidence of a guy on the field  to only then realize they just don't have it....and we start all over agian...or we stockpile a roster of coach's fav's and ST only guys and then all of a sudden in the spot we are now

 

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

There's roughly 60 reps a game on D. If Shay and Smith were playing say 12 reps a game that's only 20%. I can't see how them playing would hurt the club but I can see how it would help aid their development and help the team. If I am wrong, explain why.

we do this already with long in tooth guys...and guys who been here a bit but never good enough to make the starting 12...and a lot of the times it actually weakens us....so you are right...it's gonna aid their development and maybe open eyes and realize wow this dude can ball...or if you were smart about it you would get rid of these guys...bring in new bodies and strengthen yourself...There is no law that says whomever you break camp with is the team...cut and dried...but seems with this group thats how they roll unless an injury forces the hand

Collin Kornelson is a good case...showed zero last yr....went back for a 6th yr of University came back again...still showed nothing really...bumped a guy off roster who had played last yr....showed nothing in 6 games...and was knocked of by guy he bumped off...then weeks later cut....that shouldn't have been a 2 yr odyssey

Thomas in TC this yr...who he outplay?...did he even participate?....there were multiple guys who showed more than he had in yrs....yet game 1...there he was...sucking wind...and sucking ass....this been a 12 yr odysee....that should have been  put out to pasture 4 yrs ago really....In 4 yrs we could have developed a new pillar....but nope

 

5 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

especially in an era of barely any contact practices 

practices are a joke....if you dont earn/show it in TC and in pre-season...and have a coach whop favors and plays fav's and old vets that had success yrs ago....good luck getting on the roster 

Osh basically showed his mentality early in yr..I think late in camp...something to the affect "you look at a guys film from yrs ago...and see what he can do, and the success they had..., and thats why you have them here' ....or something like that....thats just a poor assed way to justify your decisions....yrs ago...in football a yr ago can be night and day...let alone yrs ago....plain stupid

Edited 7 hours ago by Booch

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

Our Canadian LB's...Save for the holdovers Gautier and Cadwallader have all the metrics you want, and should be getting reps to slowly season them into the defence..Like other's said they don't need to be starting, but situational reps, rotation, games where outcome is pretty much a forgone conclusion is a definite must have, thats how you get guys either accustomed and ready...or determine that they not good enough.

So i wonder if our stats nerd radio play by play dude can answer... has Gauthier taken any defensive snaps this year? Cadwallader? Because if they have that's egregious.  Those dudes are teamers for life and any snap they get should be going to potential future starters.

[Goalie]

58 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So i wonder if our stats nerd radio play by play dude can answer... has Gauthier taken any defensive snaps this year? Cadwallader? Because if they have that's egregious.  Those dudes are teamers for life and any snap they get should be going to potential future starters.

Gauthier I think takes reps at times. Cadawallader I don’t remember seeing him on the field defensively ever 

[Tracker]

6 hours ago, Booch said:

nor is intensity...physicality....having to react...list goes on and on

you cant get in to game condition either in practice...not in this day and age

Moreover, practice is structured but games are dynamic, instantaneous and unpredictable.  As a boxer said, "Everyone has a plan until the first punch lands".

[JuranBoldenRules]

4 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

There's roughly 60 reps a game on D. If Shay and Smith were playing say 12 reps a game that's only 20%. I can't see how them playing would hurt the club but I can see how it would help aid their development and help the team. If I am wrong, explain why.

Depending on opponent and what they do, we play about 40-60% of the time on D with one LB out there since we've went to more 40 fronts...and it's usually Jones...then Jones and Wilson when we have 2 out with the dime subbing out.  I don't count SAM as a LB.

[rebusrankin]

30 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Depending on opponent and what they do, we play about 40-60% of the time on D with one LB out there since we've went to more 40 fronts...and it's usually Jones...then Jones and Wilson when we have 2 out with the dime subbing out.  I don't count SAM as a LB.

I see, so you're saying we only use 1.5-2 linebackers essentially in our defense and there aren't really a lot of reps for Shay and Smith because Jones and Wilson basically take them all? Doesn't that get back to our ongoing debates about a disconnect between the front office and the coaching staff?

[no71]

Loved Peyton Logan interview

[CrazyCanuck89]

11 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Do we want to win, or rush our draft picks into duty they may not be ready for? I have no issue letting first year draft picks develop slowly, it is usually of great benefit to both the team and the player. I am not understanding what short coming people are seeing that would require us to play Shay/Smith right now? If the argument is for a ratio shift along the DL, then are we willing to downgrade LBer play to get this done? Look I want every draft pick to be a starter sooner rather than later as well, but I see no benefit in forcing the situation when we are not necessitated to do so. More players are ruined than actually excel when put in that situation. There is a lot to dislike about our current roster but tossing players in just to see what happens is incredibly short sighted and probably leads to losses if we do it on any kind of scale. 

What's the concensus around here? That we should give up on this season and start going towards next year?

You're not downgrading by playing Canadian, rookie LBs for a few reps.   Hamilton's defense improved when Veresuk got the nod at MLB.

[Goalie]

I guess maybe football is football but did Shay and smith not go to school in the USA? Their could be a learning curve but after 9 10 weeks  giving them even 10 reps a game each for the last games certainly wouldn’t hurt. Shay at middle or WIL would be huge. Smith seems more griffin position to me. And I like griffin. 
 

I think replacing Kyrie with Shay would be a smart thing. Shay replacing Tony would be ok also. And Ayers takes Kyries spot. 

 

Griffin. Shay. Ayers. Could be a solid group. Liked that Woodbey kid also tho in pre season. 
 

 

Edited 35 minutes ago by Goalie