3 turds plus cranky honker don’t say roster management edition

[GCn20]

15 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Actually it's super easy! Barely and inconvenience!

Our head coach uses his game day roster like **** a lotnof the times. So many times they dress guys who hardly take any snaps or in some cases don't even take any. Guys are  other held accountable and don't make way for the depth to step up unless injury forces it. 

 

Honestly I've got more time for Walters than I do O'Shea right now. Better use of the players he does have would make a big difference in how games go.

We've seen the difference a Person or the ilk make to our overall competitiveness.....ZERO. You guys can keep lambasting the coach over roster moves of little consequence, and you are right they don't help, but our BIGGEST problem this year is that over the last few years we have lost an all star team worth of players through Walters mismanagement. Simple as that.

[GCn20]

15 hours ago, Booch said:

Same thoughts...lack of depth and retention is on HC....Guys wont wanna stay...and its happened....recruitment has been fine but when none get a chance it's easy to lay blame on the G.M....We had a scout leave us for this very reason

Cant say next guy is up is better....but how would you know....not know when the HC refuses to play them....and we had way better athletes and players in camp we got rid of....some buried on PR/IR and people can argue the point all they want that they must not be soley cause Dear Leader hasn't rostered them....and thats just false...I strongly feel his eye for talent is poor, and if guys like Thomsd...Korn...Kolo...Schmeck...Kramdi...TJones...Bridges..Sterns....Case....Punter...lesser extent Wilson....Hallett....Gauthier...is what he feels is top notch then yeah sadly we in a very bad spot and it's all Osh as at end of day he decides the roster....and puts the guys out there....

Same with game day decisions...player sets...play calls...etc.......who do you think has 80% control of that...HC....Why you think he has his play card he is constantly looking at....referring to....reading off of as he covers his yap with it so not to be lip read.....he's dictating who/what he wants out there for most part...dependant on time...down/distance.....situ.....and his coord will try to best facilitate it....If people here think he is not controlling any of that in-game you are sadly wrong....thats not how it goes...Co-ord may put his defensive system together for most part....but it's for the HC to use........fact

You keep saying that...name one IMPACT player that left here for any other reason than we wouldn't pay them, they went to the NFL,  or our geography wasn't to their liking. Sure there are some guys that exited off the fringes of our roster for more playing time and not a single one of those guys would make an impact for us whether they stayed or not, We've lost an all star team of talent to $$$$$ and that lands squarely on KW's shoulders.

15 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

I'm not happy with the job either MOS or KW has done.

I'm quite happy with the job they've done. 2 Grey Cups, and 5 straight trips to the big game. I am, however, not impressed with the job either man is currently doing.

[Booch]

47 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

We've seen the difference a Person or the ilk make to our overall competitiveness.....ZERO. You guys can keep lambasting the coach over roster moves of little consequence, and you are right they don't help, but our BIGGEST problem this year is that over the last few years we have lost an all star team worth of players through Walters mismanagement. Simple as that.

yeah....4 reps.....is a real indicator..cmon man you better than that....especially when they all space out...dline guys need to get consistant and steady reps to get in game groove....Walters didnt cut...or not roster guys...blame Walters all you want but he has minimal impact on the game day doings....none actually

Get off Osh's nutsac...we know you are pro Osh but he the problem more than anyone else....and as much as upi dont wanna admit it a lot of defections are not just for money.....it's the way they used here...or better yet...not

[Goalie]

6 minutes ago, Booch said:

yeah....4 reps.....is a real indicator..cmon man you better than that....especially when they all space out...dline guys need to get consistant and steady reps to get in game groove....Walters didnt cut...or not roster guys...blame Walters all you want but he has minimal impact on the game day doings....none actually

Get off Osh's nutsac...we know you are pro Osh but he the problem more than anyone else....and as much as upi dont wanna admit it a lot of defections are not just for money.....it's the way they used here...or better yet...not

Can you name 3 who left for not money? Lawler? Def took the $$$. Hardrick? Took the cash. Ford? $$$. Deslauriers? $$$ and woman. I mean honestly these are really the only impact guys who have left over the years. Others like couture left cuz he’s from BC. I mean. Who exactly did we lose cuz not cash?  Garbutt? Fox? I mean you can go back a year and ppl were growing tired of them here. I don’t see any impact players who left for not cash or family related reasons. 

Edited yesterday at 01:59 PM by Goalie

[Goalie]

But with that being said I am starting to believe there is a disconnect between Walters and O’Shea. Now O’Shea has his flaws, roster management but I think @GCn20is right in saying we lack the talent and that’s not necessarily on O’Shea. That’s on Walters. Guys like Thomas and Korn dress cuz 1. Kyle signed them to contracts. And 2. We lack the Canadian depth. I mean our Canadian depth is so poor ppl think an ex bison and ex elk castoff in Cobb who has done lots of nothing in his career so far should be an option. Our cdn depth is so bad we got ppl yearning for a dude with 18 catches in 29 career games.  Crazy.  Exact same thing tho can be said for ppl always going off on O’Shea and ignore the lack of talent really which is on the gm and scouts. Honestly. Seems like McManus gets paid to do nothing and Walters seems to do very little once the season begins. Does Walters care anymore? I’m not sure. Perhaps it’s time for new blood in the gm chair sooner rather than later. 

Edited yesterday at 02:13 PM by Goalie

[Booch]

4 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Can you name 3 who left for not money? Lawler? Def took the $$$. Hardrick? Took the cash. Ford? $$$. Deslauriers? $$$ and woman. I mean honestly these are really the only impact guys who have left over the years. Others like couture left cuz he’s from BC. I mean. Who exactly did we lose cuz not cash?  Garbutt? Fox? I mean you can go back a year and ppl were growing tired of them here. I don’t see any impact players who left for not cash or family related reasons. 

Lawler would have stayed...Ford would have and not for the dumb money Edm offered....Hardrick yeah but he was sucking here...so Walters made right move there...Garbut and Fox would offer mote than who took their spots...which is....nobody

Scheme and ideology play a large part on the suckage...or apparent suckage we see...especially on a dline.....I not sure who the growing tired crowd were with Fox and Garbutt....if people dont see our depth is gutted...some of our apparent "frontline" starters are garbage and guys who have a lot of potential...youth...athleticism are not used so we will never know....and it's on Osh....Not Walters then you are truly blind and yeah...in the nutsac hanging club.

And the fact we have defaut starters set in stone before camp even starts is an issue...as is the fact we don't even consider replacing some whether it be via draft...FA...Scouting or trdae is also another...Sure Walter's is the G.M....But only a fool would believe that Osh gets way too much say in who we retain....who we target...and who gets on roster....and that too has to change or the 2 cup wins 5 yrs ago now will be 10...15 in a heartbeat....getting there and flopping is not a success....and we gonna be in a fight for 3rd as it's going now...and all avoidable

 

4 minutes ago, Goalie said:

But with that being said I am starting to believe there is a disconnect between Walters and O’Shea. Now O’Shea has his flaws, roster management but I think @GCn20is right in saying we lack the talent and that’s not necessarily on O’Shea. That’s on Walters. Guys like Thomas and Korn dress cuz 1. Kyle signed them to contracts. And 2. We lack the Canadian depth. I mean our Canadian depth is so poor ppl think an ex bison and ex elk castoff in Cobb who has done lots of nothing in his career so far should be an option. Our cdn depth is so bad we got ppl yearning for a dude with 18 catches in 29 career games.  Crazy. 

yeah...totally agree with your first part...without a doubt....but also players were brought in...and we continue to cling to no good anymore vets...ST only slugs who offer nothing other than that...and poor allocation of assets on the PR....Thats not on Walters...Walters doesn't pick the final roster...Osh does....and then when things arent working...we never deviate......Thats the issue.....can't say guys the scouts brought in are not good when they dont get the chance to show....right?

And when you see game and game again of guys who clearly are not prime anymore...but still trot em out there....well...we get more and more of what we saw last 2 games...again...Thats the HC...

[Booch]

8 minutes ago, Goalie said:

But with that being said I am starting to believe there is a disconnect between Walters and O’Shea. Now O’Shea has his flaws, roster management but I think @GCn20is right in saying we lack the talent and that’s not necessarily on O’Shea. That’s on Walters. Guys like Thomas and Korn dress cuz 1. Kyle signed them to contracts. And 2. We lack the Canadian depth. I mean our Canadian depth is so poor ppl think an ex bison and ex elk castoff in Cobb who has done lots of nothing in his career so far should be an option. Our cdn depth is so bad we got ppl yearning for a dude with 18 catches in 29 career games.  Crazy. 

ALSO...WE dont need Korn or Thomas on roster...thats also the issue....wasted roster spots..Lawson is fine...Kramdi can y=take reps...and hey here's a thought...start integrating Shay and Smith for reps too....cant develop with no play....but that makes sense......

[GCn20]

53 minutes ago, Booch said:

ALSO...WE dont need Korn or Thomas on roster...thats also the issue....wasted roster spots..Lawson is fine...Kramdi can y=take reps...and hey here's a thought...start integrating Shay and Smith for reps too....cant develop with no play....but that makes sense......

I agree that we ripen prospects on the vine way too much, however, when they do get their turn very few have seized it. It's easy to criticize our lack of transition from old to young, because that is indeed what is happening, the problem I have is no one has stepped in when opportunity presents itself through injuries. We grouse about player A or player B being past their prime or just not good enough and then the next guy up comes on and shits the bed. The first part is poor coaching but the second part is poor GMing.

I mean you listed two examples of guys we moved on from (Garbutt/Fox) who both sucked when they played. The fact that they are better than who replaced them on the roster speaks volumes about the job our recruiters and GM are doing. How in blue blazes does anyone expect MOS to get rid of vets when we consistently recruit crap on our DL.

Edited yesterday at 03:13 PM by GCn20

[Goalie]

It’s been a long while since we had a guy come to camp and earn himself a starters job immediately. Last guy was Schoen. 

[Booch]

41 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I agree that we ripen prospects on the vine way too much, however, when they do get their turn very few have seized it. It's easy to criticize our lack of transition from old to young, because that is indeed what is happening, the problem I have is no one has stepped in when opportunity presents itself through injuries. We grouse about player A or player B being past their prime or just not good enough and then the next guy up comes on and shits the bed. The first part is poor coaching but the second part is poor GMing.

I mean you listed two examples of guys we moved on from (Garbutt/Fox) who both sucked when they played. The fact that they are better than who replaced them on the roster speaks volumes about the job our recruiters and GM are doing. How in blue blazes does anyone expect MOS to get rid of vets when we consistently recruit crap on our DL.

Walters tho basically does draft work.. he not out bird dogging...but also we will never know if anyone is better cause they don't get played either...so who knows...and 4 reps in a game won't help...or languishing at practice time...practice now does nothing to earn a spot...not how they ran now 

We caught in a chicken and egg thing here....is it inadequate scouting and management...or is it poor coaching?

Do you upset the apple cart by purging g.m...with it all scouting and support and risk having the front end and financial aspects go way down hill...only to find out the same things occur at team level? And truthfully that's what would happen

Or do u do as what historically most teams do and work at player level or coach first...purge the guys who havnt gotten it done for yrs now and keep the younger upside and actually useful vets...or remove the HC who has been at the helm and created the game day roster...philosophies...etc? 

Generally the second scenario is the smarter and right one...and where we should be looking regardless of the yeah buts.   The only yeah buts that matter is the 3 recent flops...and 3 consecutive seasons of cracks...eroding play...coaching...talent..and reluctance to do anything about it at the on field level

Also...good luck getting a new G.M worth piss to come here if u handcuff him and say job is yours...but u have to keep everything as is below u...being coaches...players...game philosophies...not gonna happen and welcome to shitsville again if u do that...they gonna want their own people...

If change is needed and gonna happen...and it definitely needs to be...its gonna and gotta be at the coaching...and player level first

 

13 minutes ago, Goalie said:

It’s been a long while since we had a guy come to camp and earn himself a starters job immediately. Last guy was Schoen. 

True...very true...and even then it was because there was an actual open job available...he didnt push out a vet or tenured player

When is the last time with this staff have we had a T.C cut where we sent a vet who been here a while packing for a new guy? Where fans were wow? Happens a lot elsewhere...but I'll tell u how many times here....zero...that i can think of of any relevance

[17to85]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

however, when they do get their turn very few have seized it.

Bullshit. Fox and garbutt as examples played well when they weren't on the ir. Problem is that they insisted on playing thrnold guys on dl and never truly used the youth. Even this year. Person gets a handful of reps, we keep Kornelson on the roster to take a handful of reps... we waste spots on special teams only guys as opposed to guys who can take reps on defense or offense as well as teams. The roster usage blows chunks. 

[17to85]

Just think back to 2019 and 2021... they used 8 guys regularly in rotation on the DL who could contribute and it worked spectacularly. So why now do we think using basically 5 guys, 3 of which are well over 30 is going to be the answer?

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Bullshit. Fox and garbutt as examples played well when they weren't on the ir. Problem is that they insisted on playing thrnold guys on dl and never truly used the youth. Even this year. Person gets a handful of reps, we keep Kornelson on the roster to take a handful of reps... we waste spots on special teams only guys as opposed to guys who can take reps on defense or offense as well as teams. The roster usage blows chunks. 

Garbutt is a shitty American player in this league.  He has 4 sacks in 20 games.  Very minimal impact.  Same production here and in Hamilton.  Unless everyone is so scared of him they avoid his side of the field.  Fox too.  14 games in 4 seasons, a tackle a game and 1 career sack.

Those guys are the definition of placeholders.

Any team should be embarrassed to be featuring those guys at this point of their career.  Those are the kinds of guys in the kinds of positions that should be moved out if they make no impact.  And I'm not saying the Bombers are any better.  Like Adams to me is a guy I'm trying to replace every week.  The position is among the easiest in the game.  Win your gap, be disruptive.  If we can watch 6 games and not be sure you even dressed when you're playing 30+ snaps a game, see ya.

[BigBlueFanatic]

Gotta wonder how Adams play is affected with JT next to him all the time, WJ jumping up and down and Vaughters also neutraized?

[Bigblue204]

13 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Any team should be embarrassed to be featuring those guys at this point of their career.  Those are the kinds of guys in the kinds of positions that should be moved out if they make no impact.  And I'm not saying the Bombers are any better.  Like Adams to me is a guy I'm trying to replace every week.  The position is among the easiest in the game.  Win your gap, be disruptive.  If we can watch 6 games and not be sure you even dressed when you're playing 30+ snaps a game, see ya.

I find it hard to believe Adams is playing 30 snaps a game. Agreed with everything else you're saying though. But I'd really like to see Adams be the featured on the DL and not just used sparingly.

[JuranBoldenRules]

6 minutes ago, BigBlueFanatic said:

Gotta wonder how Adams play is affected with JT next to him all the time, WJ jumping up and down and Vaughters also neutraized?

Doesn't look like anyone is worried about him to me.  Certainly don't mind baiting him and letting him spin around if they run outside zone away from him, leave him unblocked and double up play side, work up to 2nd level.

1 minute ago, Bigblue204 said:

I find it hard to believe Adams is playing 30 snaps a game. Agreed with everything else you're saying though. But I'd really like to see Adams be the featured on the DL and not just used sparingly.

145/5 equals ?

He's played more than half the plays this season...which is an ideal number.  Ideally you have 8-9 guys rotating so that's where he'd be.  We don't have to make excuses for anyone's lack of impact or production just because we hate Jake Thomas.

[Bigblue204]

7 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Doesn't look like anyone is worried about him to me.  Certainly don't mind baiting him and letting him spin around if they run outside zone away from him, leave him unblocked and double up play side, work up to 2nd level.

145/5 equals ?

He's played more than half the plays this season...which is an ideal number.  Ideally you have 8-9 guys rotating so that's where he'd be.  We don't have to make excuses for anyone's lack of impact or production just because we hate Jake Thomas.

Yeah that's fair.

[17to85]

24 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Garbutt is a shitty American player in this league.  He has 4 sacks in 20 games.  Very minimal impact.  Same production here and in Hamilton.  Unless everyone is so scared of him they avoid his side of the field.  Fox too.  14 games in 4 seasons, a tackle a game and 1 career sack.

Those guys are the definition of placeholders.

Any team should be embarrassed to be featuring those guys at this point of their career.  Those are the kinds of guys in the kinds of positions that should be moved out if they make no impact.  And I'm not saying the Bombers are any better.  Like Adams to me is a guy I'm trying to replace every week.  The position is among the easiest in the game.  Win your gap, be disruptive.  If we can watch 6 games and not be sure you even dressed when you're playing 30+ snaps a game, see ya.

Still better than what we're trotting out. Give me a good rotation of placeholders vs. Lots and lots of washed up old boys.

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Still better than what we're trotting out. Give me a good rotation of placeholders vs. Lots and lots of washed up old boys.

Garbutt got to be an every down end here and did SFA.

[Booch]

9 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Garbutt got to be an every down end here and did SFA.

along wiyh the rest of the line...for several yrs....scheme ...coaching and supporting cast perhaps....and it is very easy to neutralize and scheme away from players on a dline when they have have inferior guys playing on it....A guys lack of production isnt necessarily related to ability....but scheme and play call....where we seem to really suck....compounded by half the dline rotation basically sucking....and not just this year...since we punted away Jeffcoat and never replaced our last true interior guys....and or refuse to give who we brought in majority of reps to actually get acclimated...in a groove and feet under them...we continually stagnate and prevent player development here...and not just on dline 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, BigBlueFanatic said:

Gotta wonder how Adams play is affected with JT next to him all the time, WJ jumping up and down and Vaughters also neutraized?

Imo, athletically, he is where he needs to be this year. Last year, cardio was a big issue; he was blowing up mid way through games, and hit the wall hard after a productive start. 

His polish needs work. He can bull rush like a mofo, but he doesn't have good handwork to get off blocks or get out of bad spots if the OL wins the battle. 

He's had some borderline great snaps. Stove esq beast mode play. He needs to be protected better right now, and fill none nose roles as much as possible. Which, like you allude to, isn't happening. WJ barely gets upfield to threaten the backfield anymore. He does ok when he actually tries, but he tries too infrequently. Mostly he jab steps tries some thing like a swim move, if he doesn't get a free line to the qb he steps out like hes playing contain to play for the pass knock down. But doesn't actually give us edge contain. 

Vaughters pushes upfield on his snaps at least, but he's no JJ. 

And jake, well, the only way he is moving quickly towards the QB is if hes on the back of an errant cart. 

We need Woods back and playing the middle. Pair him with Adams playing a 3T, and lawson rotating for both. combine that with some one to spell WJ for atleast half if not 2/3s of his reps and we could have a good push again from our front. (who ever spells him should also spell vaughters of course for maybe 1/3 of his snaps.)

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Still better than what we're trotting out. Give me a good rotation of placeholders vs. Lots and lots of washed up old boys.

That is a big problem, we haven't found an end worth a damn in ages. We can find 3 techs pretty well, and woods is a good nose or dt. But when you have 3 guys like jake, wj, and vaughters taking soo many snaps IDC who you put beside them. That 4th guy is getting mauled by OLs. 

[Booch]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Still better than what we're trotting out. Give me a good rotation of placeholders vs. Lots and lots of washed up old boys.

yup...tho stats dont tell the whole story on the dline Garbutt with 9 tackles and 1 sac...Fox with 9 tackles and no sacs.....is better than Thomas with 2 tackles...zero sacks....and just awful play...Korn with 3 tackles...zero sacks....WJ with 8 tackles...1 sac..Adams with 5 tackles and 1 sac ...Vaughter has 13...no sacs and does get a lot of heat and disruption at times....but justifying their release as "dont do squat" doesn't compute.....Both guys in Hammer are disruptive and get pressures too...and are in a rotation...legit one so likely less snaps too

They also both have motors and from what I see when watching don't take plays off.....to say we better without them is foolish...and even tho Woli is hurt....wasnt going into camp so not like we let him go cause we knew something...we didnt....but his smarts...and trust with ZC would be a lot better roster option than Corcorran....Novack..Korn and even Thomas and could have been that super sub on offence who knows all the positions and would provide leadership (which we lacking)  and grit...and not like we would have had to break bank to keep him either...he would have stayed on his current deal he had...another brain dead stupid move...who was the main voice behind it who knows...but was dumb none the less

Our failures and issues we incurring are all self inflicted...anyone thinking or saying opposite isnt paying attention...or just plain has no clue

 

[rebusrankin]

Other than Jeffcoat, I don't believe we've found an DE worth a darn in KW's tenure. Jefferson, Westerman and Vaughters are free agent signings. DT on the other hand, Stove, Bradin Bryant, Poop Johnson, Casey Sayles, we've done all right.

[Booch]

8 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Imo, athletically, he is where he needs to be this year. Last year, cardio was a big issue; he was blowing up mid way through games, and hit the wall hard after a productive start. 

His polish needs work. He can bull rush like a mofo, but he doesn't have good handwork to get off blocks or get out of bad spots if the OL wins the battle. 

He's had some borderline great snaps. Stove esq beast mode play. He needs to be protected better right now, and fill none nose roles as much as possible. Which, like you allude to, isn't happening. WJ barely gets upfield to threaten the backfield anymore. He does ok when he actually tries, but he tries too infrequently. Mostly he jab steps tries some thing like a swim move, if he doesn't get a free line to the qb he steps out like hes playing contain to play for the pass knock down. But doesn't actually give us edge contain. 

Vaughters pushes upfield on his snaps at least, but he's no JJ. 

And jake, well, the only way he is moving quickly towards the QB is if hes on the back of an errant cart. 

We need Woods back and playing the middle. Pair him with Adams playing a 3T, and lawson rotating for both. combine that with some one to spell WJ for atleast half if not 2/3s of his reps and we could have a good push again from our front. (who ever spells him should also spell vaughters of course for maybe 1/3 of his snaps.)

That is a big problem, we haven't found an end worth a damn in ages. We can find 3 techs pretty well, and woods is a good nose or dt. But when you have 3 guys like jake, wj, and vaughters taking soo many snaps IDC who you put beside them. That 4th guy is getting mauled by OLs. 

yup...and now is this directed to him to do?...if not a free lane to play contain...and look for the knockdown and rely on this scheme of us having 25 db types out there?...most times playing way too soft and passive aggressive?....I think it more that...Just look at the Grey Cup...he was basically free'd up to pay traditional end and had best game of his life....that ability is there but obviously something we are trying to do is just not translating for our ends...End is one the easiest roles to fill in CFL ....and some his frustration penalties this yr is I bet a direct result of...his frustration with how we are doing things....WJ isnt a selfish idiot....and he isnt in athletic decline, or lacks technical skills...Thats reserved for several other of the dead weight we carry

 

3 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Other than Jeffcoat, I don't believe we've found an DE worth a darn in KW's tenure. Jefferson, Westerman and Vaughters are free agent signings. DT on the other hand, Stove, Bradin Bryant, Poop Johnson, Casey Sayles, we've done all right.

but poor on retention...and those guys came from other scouting networks we no longer employ...Sadly there was a buttload of free agent dline guys we could have targeted this off-seson in FA but shoose not to, cause we had Jake..Korn..Schmeck...so we good....another short sighted move of brain deadness....didnt even try to get better...status quo cause we won a cup in 2019 and 2021...eons ago

[17to85]

45 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Garbutt got to be an every down end here and did SFA.

And was still better than what they had been using previously