Bombers at Stumps GDT

[Noeller]

I honestly didn't think Jake would be playing this much once Lawson was ready. Absolutely wild the snaps he's getting. 

[Goalie]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Your best lineman is adams and he's getting so few snaps. Embarrassing. 

Yup. Is anyone surprised when you see Thomas has over 50 more reps. I mean honestly it’s sad seeing Thomas trotted out like he’s some all star. Dude is single handily making us worse. And with Jefferson and his total lack of effort at times, this is no surprise. O’Shea puts all his faith in these guys and it appears they take advantage of it. I’d cut a couple to send a message. Jefferson might be top of the list honestly cuz if I’m another player seeing him coast most games, I’m not sure how I feel. I get 60 less reps but try my hardest every time. It’s kind of crazy. 

I don’t understand. This isn’t community club football. Not everyone deserves a spot. I always thought the idea was to dress the best 45 or so guys. We don’t do that. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

6 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Your best lineman is adams and he's getting so few snaps. Embarrassing. 

Our most impressive lineman athletically is Adams.  Not sure we have a ton of evidence to give him flowers.  He's got stats on like 2% of the snaps he's played.  0 sacks, 0 TFL's.  He's not some unstoppable, transformative force even if he's an impressive athlete.

Not disagreeing that he shouldn't get more reps, but not exactly willing concede to him playing more = more pressure from DL, more big plays from DL.  So far he's an alright CFL player.

[wbbfan]

25 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I honestly didn't think Jake would be playing this much once Lawson was ready. Absolutely wild the snaps he's getting. 

Agree. Korny too. Just doesn’t make sense. 

16 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Our most impressive lineman athletically is Adams.  Not sure we have a ton of evidence to give him flowers.  He's got stats on like 2% of the snaps he's played.  0 sacks, 0 TFL's.  He's not some unstoppable, transformative force even if he's an impressive athlete.

Not disagreeing that he shouldn't get more reps, but not exactly willing concede to him playing more = more pressure from DL, more big plays from DL.  So far he's an alright CFL player.

That’s true, but it’s also hard to project stats at DT. It’s not a high volume tackle spot in high reps. 2 tackles a game at dt in high volume is really good. 2-3 is extraordinary.

 The volume of our pressures and sacks thatve come with him in the field is crazy. Especially when with Lawson. 

[17to85]

17 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Our most impressive lineman athletically is Adams.  Not sure we have a ton of evidence to give him flowers.  He's got stats on like 2% of the snaps he's played.  0 sacks, 0 TFL's.  He's not some unstoppable, transformative force even if he's an impressive athlete.

Not disagreeing that he shouldn't get more reps, but not exactly willing concede to him playing more = more pressure from DL, more big plays from DL.  So far he's an alright CFL player.

But in comparison to the rest? I stand by my statement. He's the most noticeable. 

30 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I honestly didn't think Jake would be playing this much once Lawson was ready. Absolutely wild the snaps he's getting. 

Really? Jake hasn't needed to take the kind of snaps he has for several years. Osh was always going to play him more than he should.

[wbbfan]

49 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

I'm going to build on @JuranBoldenRules points. Name a successful CFL or NFL team that didn't generate a lot of pressure and by extension sacks? We did in 19 and 21, Toronto did it in 22 and 24. Eagles just won a Super Bowl in part because of this.

You need to atleast be able to create pressures and push/collapse the pocket with your front. That also ensures that if you send extra rushers, the pocket time will be very small. 
 Defence these days are heavily reliant on disruption. 
 

55 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

The justification is the scheme.  With Younger they have no commitment to rush from the edge.  They are disrupting QB eyes by challenging their reads in who from their D will be managing which routes and potentially who/where pressure might come from.  They'd rather have a guy like Griffin out there as a hybrid at 3 levels than have 4 DL driving into the pocket/off the edge on a potential passing down.  

We're basically running a 3-4 defense in this era where DB's are LB's.  Our only true LB out there is Jones or Gauthier if he's out there....It's basically a 3-1-8 if you're thinking about who might do what, for the most part those 8 are coverage players but they also will rush aside from the corners.

We aren’t doing that nearly as much as we did last year. We’re running a lot of 4-2 and 4-1, 3-2 is pretty limited. 

[Booch]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

But look at what happened in preseason game 2... the starters on D got outperformed badly by the 2s... not a coincidence in my mind. The defensive line is a problem and has been for a couple years. Would really like to know how people feel they really are putting the best people out there...

they are not in some areas...Osh is putting out guys based on his heart and opinion...not talent

35 minutes ago, DTonOB said:

Just caught up on snap counts for the season...folks had asked in a different thread. 211 defensive snaps (including penalty plays were the play wasn't stopped early):

Vaughters - 189
Jefferson - 182
Thomas - 144
Lawson - 129
Adams - 117
Kornelson - 26

sad....and fact Korn has 26 snaps most likely parking one of lawson...Adams even sadder

 

30 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Your best lineman is adams and he's getting so few snaps. Embarrassing. 

pathetic

1 hour ago, Goalie said:

None of you went to camp or if you did it was for an hour on 1 day so to be making statements like this guy was better in camp Is just pure bullshit. Nobody went to camp. 

if you watched any pre-season game action you could have seen it

People I talked to re: camp said they were the better....and the few practices I been to since, where they run thru just basic technical stuff...running....movements you can see it.....it's plain as day

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Yep. Our wins have been heavily skewed by the fact that we had a ridiculous talent edge over the rest of the league. Look at how our DL dominated; we ran every alignment imaginable, with every single combination of players. Everything we did after we started, Zach worked. With every sub and roster change. That team is among the most overpowered in league history. The fact that much of the core is still competitive speaks volumes to that.

Mos has done a lot of great things here; we could've won with almost any HC. Not any coach could've turned us into that squad, not any coach could've come back from last year's start. But a bunch of coaches would have more GC rings in his place here. 

Your claim is that absurd. We see outstanding rookies at every single position in the CFL now. Even QBs here n there. For real though, who did Kornelson out play and how?

The backup QB is the most popular guy amongst the fans. The thing is, we have several below-replacement-level guys like Kola and Jake. Would you like to go do a head-to-head comparison of forced into action PR back-ups vs those guys in film? Can show real clearly that some guys we play are average PR or below guys. 

Funny thing is the same thing happened last year in PS too. 

 

On top of that, our brutal useage of biggie, feeding him to OL to prevent double teams, caused his precipitous downfall and injuries. We battered the poor guy into a career grave. 

 

We were not first in pressures last year, which aren't openly tracked or released on a reliable in-season basis. Classic distraction technique. Teams often track it themselves and quantify it. He tried to say at one point last year that Jake had the most pressure in the league. 

 

The gap is actually widening in terms of pressures as well, between us and the rest of the league. Teams like Sask, To, and a couple of others are running much more aggressive fronts, doing basically the opposite of what we did last year. The riders have had an absurd amount of pressure on opposing qbs this year. More real pressures than we had all last year. 

Very few. 

they also run fronts with athletic and versatile guys...which help....we have currently 4 guys able to do that (WJ..Vaught..Adams...Lawson) but they need help and with Korn..Thomas and a converted LB at rotational end...we dont have the proper players....ends are dogged out and have to take plays off whether they want to or not...

Guys like Person...Bailey....can and have played teams...Fox and Woods last yr did as well....you dont need a redundant amount of slugs who cant take reps on offence or defence as your major part of roster config.....You can have rotaional guys that can take reps with little to now drop off play teams tho....and rotate in....here's where we are slitting our own throats....we draft a lot with the sole purpose/idea of ST's....thats bad practice...and dumb.....Anyone can play teams at the pro level....especially if athletic....not everyone can play offence or defense and not hurt you tho...this is where we failing in a huge way now that our staring 24 and 3 key subs are not stacked anymore...or 3-5 yrs younger

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Brandon Alexander & Collaros was hurt as well. However, I get starting Collaros even with a bum ankle. Posters here going after the members they think complain too much & then they throw up shade making excuse after excuse actually keeping the merry go round going. The coaching decisions cost us those Grey Cups. The 2023 Grey Cup with all the injured players, especially with Biggie playing on one leg, Schoen barely able to run & was a non factor...etc, etc. Last year playing Collaros with a severed finger on his throwing hand. That's all coaching decisions. 

Demski too could barely run and should not have been out there that game

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

I knew this would be the first argument brought up... and there's some validity tonight, but the 1s have looked very similar in the regular season compared to preseason and we can pretty much nail the roster that'll start as soon as camp opens so that shows me that osh has it written in ink from day 1 and it won't change. 

Honestly I want to see one person provide a good solid justification to having Ayers, a linebacker, as the only DE depth on the roster when our starters are 34 and 32 years old.

cause....he been here 3 yrs now.....most likely....

1 hour ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Biggest mistake they've been making from 2022 on is Willie Jefferson.  Great luxury piece to add to one of the greatest CFL D's of all-time if you have the cap space.  It worked for 3 years amazingly when he played about 2/3 of snaps.  But he's not a building block.  And especially as he reaches his mid-30's.

Jeffcoat was the building block and they've never replaced him.  They misread who was dominant, but I mean the whole world does with Jefferson because he's out there and obvious.  Not that Jeffcoat could still play, but the role they needed to replace in the scheme to be dominant.  Instead, Willie has got paid at each time his ticket has come up as his play is less and less effective without that dominant core in the front 7 around him.

I am not a fan of Younger's scheme in comparison to Richie Hall's.  We hardly turn the ball over, and we rely on coverage which is foolish.  Even when you watch our DL play there's no attempt to get pressure from out side.  Vaughters will rush B gap, Jefferson will twist sometimes and end up B or A gap, but from the edge they are just reading the QB to disrupt passing lanes.  Any DE we've dressed for the past 2 seasons.

It's basically a coin flip every week if it's going to work, but you see how even 1 or 2 guys having a bad game in the secondary sinks this scheme.  Pressure is how you build championship defense, and if you're going to have one without the other, consistent pressure is way more impactful.  If you have good players in the back end you'll probably never be worse than .500 with this scheme.  But it's not a scheme that's going to beat another team that is in rhythm and playing at a championship level.  We make no attempt to be aggressive at the line of scrimmage and are mostly trying to disrupt QB downfield reads while that QB basically knows they won't be pressured.

Our team stats look decent right now, but we played the worst quarterbacked team by a longshot (BC) twice and Tre Ford.  

we dont turn our de's loose anymore....and when you have no push in the middle with half your dline interior.....then no reason for the qb to try and escape and get swallowed up off the edge...he either steps up and finds a second or 3rd read....or just hits the primary guy on a quick toss unabated.....when we were kicking butt and looking like a all-time defensive unit...we Had our 2 end letting loose with 2 other ends spelling them off...and guys like Nevis...stove...Sayles casuing issues inside with a sprinkling of Jake....and even in his "prime" he lacked a lot

Now we have 2 ends who get no rotation....Jake getting majority of inside reps and sporadic use of the 2 legit DT's....and people wonder why we get zero pressure....no sacks...and at times QB's seem to just sit back and pick apart 8-9 guys in coverage

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

I'm going to build on @JuranBoldenRules points. Name a successful CFL or NFL team that didn't generate a lot of pressure and by extension sacks? We did in 19 and 21, Toronto did it in 22 and 24. Eagles just won a Super Bowl in part because of this.

100 percent

[Booch]

49 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I honestly didn't think Jake would be playing this much once Lawson was ready. Absolutely wild the snaps he's getting. 

when u said he gonna be depth and depth only and thats fine...I said you are a fool to believe that knowing Osh was the HC....Here's one time I wish I was wrong but I knew I wouldnt be

26 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Agree. Korny too. Just doesn’t make sense. 

That’s true, but it’s also hard to project stats at DT. It’s not a high volume tackle spot in high reps. 2 tackles a game at dt in high volume is really good. 2-3 is extraordinary.

 The volume of our pressures and sacks thatve come with him in the field is crazy. Especially when with Lawson. 

I was shocked Korny made team...let alone active roster

And with Adams it's not necessarily stats that show the true story...he consumes usually 2 guys...causes pressure and makes the QB have to move/change launch point or get flushed into someone else....but if we had complimentary peices with him...and Lawson...that would change in a big way and when we have both nim and Lawson on feild together in a 4 man....even one or both in 3 man...we have more sucess and pressure than with the other 2

 

[SpeedFlex27]

Who is the guy with the droopy head who looks asleep in his stance? Jake Thomas the guy with the third highest reps on the team. Jeezus. 

[rebusrankin]

Jake playing nearly 70% of snaps is absurd.

Would love to know how many snaps Ayers has played. Ditto our 2 rookies Shay and Smith. Feel like both Shay and Smith have less than 26 defensive reps but have so much upside.

[rebusrankin]

@DTonOB, how many snaps have Connor Shay and Jaylen Smith played on defense so far? Thanks in advance.

[Tracker]

7 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Have you been watching O'Shea's win/loss record? You guys are so fixated on the bottom 4 positions of our depth chart it has become almost comical. We have not lost a game due to roster management since this notion reared it's head a couple years ago. Roster management is such a minor part of what win/loses games at the pro level unless star players are out with injury. Every game comes down to about a dozen key plays that tell the tale of the game. Big time players make big time plays and they are not found at the bottom of the depth chart. 

I'm not excusing Osh's roster management, it could be better, but this nonsense that Jake Thomas taking 8 snaps a game more than he should is costing us games is ridiculous.

If you want to talk about roster decisions of consequence we can look to stuff like the decision to keep Collaros over Brown, or to let Lawler walk. These are impactful decisions to our ability to win and worthy of some debate. However, then we are no longer talking about O'Shea are we. I think you guys got the crosshairs on the wrong guy. Even dud FA signings this year that can't beat out some mediocre talent ahead of them lies with the front office, not the coach.

I have been watching O'Shea. Last season and the two previous seasons he kept fielding sub-par players (like Kolankowski when Tui Eli was available and has LOST three consecutive Grey Cup games when they were emiinently winnable. Winning big in the regular season is all well and good, but it counts for squat in the post-season.

[Booch]

26 minutes ago, Tracker said:

I have been watching O'Shea. Last season and the two previous seasons he kept fielding sub-par players (like Kolankowski when Tui Eli was available and has LOST three consecutive Grey Cup games when they were emiinently winnable. Winning big in the regular season is all well and good, but it counts for squat in the post-season.

The yeah but crowd think reg season is a success even when losing the championship game with easily prevented circumstances...over and over...same reason..

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

Jake playing nearly 70% of snaps is absurd.

Would love to know how many snaps Ayers has played. Ditto our 2 rookies Shay and Smith. Feel like both Shay and Smith have less than 26 defensive reps but have so much upside.

Adams with 55 percent...Lawson 60...crazy...and there been reps with both Thomas and Korn...yikes

Shay and Smith if any reps taken been at end of a game...meaningless plays really...token throw em a bone reps...not significant reps to assess ability and facilitate growth

[brett_c_b]

Basic football question here from someone who has never played organized football. I see lots of bashing O'Shea for roster decisions. 

From a typical responsibility perspective, how much of the lineup decisions is head coach vs coordinator? Same question for in game decisions. 

 

I would assume the coordinator decides how to use the players he's given. Same way I would assume not cutting a guy like Thomas is as much on the GM as the head coach. 

 

So not trying to absolve anyone of blame, more trying to understand where the decision making typically lies in football between coach and coordinator

[DTonOB]

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

@DTonOB, how many snaps have Connor Shay and Jaylen Smith played on defense so far? Thanks in advance.

0 defensive snaps for both through 4 games. 11 for Ayers

Edited 1 hour ago by DTonOB

[Noeller]

27 minutes ago, brett_c_b said:

Basic football question here from someone who has never played organized football. I see lots of bashing O'Shea for roster decisions. 

From a typical responsibility perspective, how much of the lineup decisions is head coach vs coordinator? Same question for in game decisions. 

 

I would assume the coordinator decides how to use the players he's given. Same way I would assume not cutting a guy like Thomas is as much on the GM as the head coach. 

 

So not trying to absolve anyone of blame, more trying to understand where the decision making typically lies in football between coach and coordinator

I don't think you'll get an accurate answer here. It's gonna be very biased on both sides. You'd have to actually be in the bombers room to know. 

[sweep the leg]

1 hour ago, Tracker said:

I have been watching O'Shea. Last season and the two previous seasons he kept fielding sub-par players (like Kolankowski when Tui Eli was available.

What has Eli done to show he’s better than Kolo? He had some bad snaps in preseason that probably sealed his fate as a backup. 

[17to85]

8 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

What has Eli done to show he’s better than Kolo? He had some bad snaps in preseason that probably sealed his fate as a backup. 

Then if he truly isn't better than kolankowski cut him because he's not worth keeping. Kolankowski is a scrap heap emergency injury fill in type of player. If your backup isn't better than that why are we keeping him?

[rebusrankin]

48 minutes ago, DTonOB said:

0 defensive snaps for both through 4 games. 11 for Ayers

Thank you. Thought it might be that.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, brett_c_b said:

Basic football question here from someone who has never played organized football. I see lots of bashing O'Shea for roster decisions. 

From a typical responsibility perspective, how much of the lineup decisions is head coach vs coordinator? Same question for in game decisions. 

 

I would assume the coordinator decides how to use the players he's given. Same way I would assume not cutting a guy like Thomas is as much on the GM as the head coach. 

 

So not trying to absolve anyone of blame, more trying to understand where the decision making typically lies in football between coach and coordinator

Really depends on the coach. The hc is the one making final decisions. But especially here it’s going to be very collaborative. That said I don’t think either of our CO’s would try to or be able to convince mos that say Jake/kola are wastes of space. 
 We like yes men here sadly. 

At the end of the day, the hc is responsible for fielding the best squad. If he delegated a lot to his cos, who he picks, and it leads to bad decisions frequently, it falls on him. 

The thing about promoting from with in for soo long is no one is going to give a different perspective. 

25 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

What has Eli done to show he’s better than Kolo? He had some bad snaps in preseason that probably sealed his fate as a backup. 

He’s struggled at G in pass pro. Some guys can’t play inside but excel outside, like hardrick. Some guys can’t play the other side of the line. 
 Eli hasn’t played a lot at C but has been good. 
 

Eli on the edge can block 1vs1 with the best of them in short yardage. He can snap, so it’s only a gain over kola who can only snap. 

[sweep the leg]

19 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Then if he truly isn't better than kolankowski cut him because he's not worth keeping. Kolankowski is a scrap heap emergency injury fill in type of player. If your backup isn't better than that why are we keeping him?

I have no problem bringing in a better player. Who’s out there?

5 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

He’s struggled at G in pass pro. Some guys can’t play inside but excel outside, like hardrick. Some guys can’t play the other side of the line. 
 Eli hasn’t played a lot at C but has been good. 
 

Eli on the edge can block 1vs1 with the best of them in short yardage. He can snap, so it’s only a gain over kola who can only snap. 

Can he snap? He had enough bad ones in preseason that I don’t blame the coaches for not trusting him.