Jump to content

Canadian Politics


Recommended Posts

1 minute ago, JCon said:

This guy appeals to so many right wing nutters. Half the PC party were ready to make him their leader and he would probably still get as many votes if another leadership vote happened today. 

I think he is going to steal alot of PC votes . Whether that translates into seats I don't know. If I'm OToole I go as close to center as I can. He has already lost the far right votes .He needs to chip away at Liberal votes. It's definitely a interesting election.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, the watcher said:

I think he is going to steal alot of PC votes . Whether that translates into seats I don't know. If I'm O'Toole I go as close to center as I can. He has already lost the far right votes .He needs to chip away at Liberal votes. It's definitely a interesting election.

It has become pretty obvious that O'Toole does not speak for the whole party which is still divided along Reform vs  PC. He appears to be seen by many in the party as a figurehead who is useful only so far as projecting a credible PM image which will get them into power. Once there, it will be open season. He has no authority to set policy and has backtracked a couple of times already after saying something and being chastised.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Tracker said:

It has become pretty obvious that O'Toole does not speak for the whole party which is still divided along Reform vs  PC. He appears to be seen by many in the party as a figurehead who is useful only so far as projecting a credible PM image which will get them into power. Once there, it will be open season. He has no authority to set policy and has backtracked a couple of times already after saying something and being chastised.

It is a divided party for sure.  PMs do/can  carry alot of weight and control the party ( Harper ) but I doubt if OToole can pull it off. Also if he loses he will probably be one and done. It's always been the biggest issue for PCs, controlling  that far right. But I still believe the only way they get elected is to appear more centralist and pull votes from the Libs. I really do think they lose a bunch of votes west of ONT. to the PPC.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, the watcher said:

It is a divided party for sure.  PMs do/can  carry alot of weight and control the party ( Harper ) but I doubt if OToole can pull it off. Also if he loses he will probably be one and done. It's always been the biggest issue for PCs, controlling  that far right. But I still believe the only way they get elected is to appear more centralist and pull votes from the Libs. I really do think they lose a bunch of votes west of ONT. to the PPC.

Yea..in the West the CPC will lose some % points to the PPC. Luckily for them it will have almost 0 impact on their seat totals. The danger of the PPC to the CPC is what they could do in the East. However, support is west centric for PPC. If Bernier wasn't such a wingnut he could pose problems but he is..and won't get enough votes where it matters to be anything but an annoyance. Quite honestly if i were the CPC i'd be thrilled that the PPC is there to give the very small% of extreme right voters a place to park their support and not tarnish the CPC's hope of moving back towards the centre.

In the demographics that matter such as the 905, GTA, and BC there will be virtually zero support for the PPC. The CPC, in order to gain seats there, must appeal to the centre of the political spectrum because there isn't much support for anything too far right of centre.

Edited by GCn20
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, GCn20 said:

Yea..in the West the CPC will lose some % points to the PPC. Luckily for them it will have almost 0 impact on their seat totals. The danger of the PPC to the CPC is what they could do in the East. However, support is west centric for PPC. If Bernier wasn't such a wingnut he could pose problems but he is..and won't get enough votes where it matters to be anything but an annoyance. Quite honestly if i were the CPC i'd be thrilled that the PPC is there to give the very small% of extreme right voters a place to park their support and not tarnish the CPC's hope of moving back towards the centre.

In the demographics that matter such as the 905, GTA, and BC there will be virtually zero support for the PPC. The CPC, in order to gain seats there, must appeal to the centre of the political spectrum because there isn't much support for anything too far right of centre.

Agreed. I don't really see the CPC losing a single seat as a result of the PPC. Even the hard right nutjobs are concerned with straying from the CPC because that will give the election to the communist devil Trudeau. I imagine that will especially effect their votes in ridings where it might be tight between CPC and another party. It will be interesting to see the effect Bernier has on areas that are consistent CPC landslides. It won't take any seats, but the results will be interesting in CPC strongholds like the Manitoba bible belt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, WildPath said:

Agreed. I don't really see the CPC losing a single seat as a result of the PPC. Even the hard right nutjobs are concerned with straying from the CPC because that will give the election to the communist devil Trudeau. I imagine that will especially effect their votes in ridings where it might be tight between CPC and another party. It will be interesting to see the effect Bernier has on areas that are consistent CPC landslides. It won't take any seats, but the results will be interesting in CPC strongholds like the Manitoba bible belt.

The PPC only draws support in areas that are CPC strongholds. If Bernier did not go all "tea party"ish he could present a threat to the CPC but in Canada his approach is just way too far right. There really isnt a huge far right voter presence here and those that favor him are unlikely to vote for him in any sort of swing riding. His party is a protest vote and right wingers tend to be far more practical then that.

Edited by GCn20
Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The PPC only draws support in areas that are CPC strongholds. If Bernier did not go all "tea party"ish he could present a threat to the CPC but in Canada his approach is just way too far right. There really isnt a huge far right voter presence here and those that favor him are unlikely to vote for him in any sort of swing riding. His party is a protest vote and right wingers tend to be far more practical then that.

I don't think "right wingers tend to be more practical" is apt. Famously and recently, the right wingers have split the old PC Party into the Reform/PC brands, later to merge. And, the Wild Rose party, at the provincial level, split the right vote that ushered in an NDP govt, which was unthinkable just a couple of years before. 

Edit. I think the Right struggles with the reality that their deepest desires just are not the preference of most Canadians. They see the success of the right in the US and wonder how they can get that too. But, there's a more rational, thoughtful small C conservative, who likes the current balance but want the needle pushed to the right - more privatization and smallert govt. They're just not sure that the party is working towards that too. 

PPC is just a protest vote now but could be more enticing if they could ditch their horrid leader. There are CPC heavyweights that worry about the direction of the party. 

Edited by JCon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The seeds of this kind of intolerance was sowed when the religious-right oriented Reform party merged with the PC party after Brian Mulroney reduced it to a laughingstock and seized power there. The malignancy that rose to the surface under Trump has emboldened the nuts in Canada who had no credibility and were afraid to come out. The tolerance that the new Tory party has shown to those members who voiced support for the right-wing neo-Nazis and their coded messages to those created the natural outcome we heard of today.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Tracker said:

The seeds of this kind of intolerance was sowed when the religious-right oriented Reform party merged with the PC party after Brian Mulroney reduced it to a laughingstock and seized power there. The malignancy that rose to the surface under Trump has emboldened the nuts in Canada who had no credibility and were afraid to come out. The tolerance that the new Tory party has shown to those members who voiced support for the right-wing neo-Nazis and their coded messages to those created the natural outcome we heard of today.

Someone on MBB, perhaps you, mentioned how the Trump B.S. would embolden the right wing nuts in Canada. I disagreed. I assumed that would be sufficient warning what would happen here. Shame on me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, WildPath said:

Someone on MBB, perhaps you, mentioned how the Trump B.S. would embolden the right wing nuts in Canada. I disagreed. I assumed that would be sufficient warning what would happen here. Shame on me.

Shame on all of us who have remained silent in full knowledge that silence is complicity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2021-09-06 at 6:37 PM, JCon said:

I don't think "right wingers tend to be more practical" is apt. Famously and recently, the right wingers have split the old PC Party into the Reform/PC brands, later to merge. And, the Wild Rose party, at the provincial level, split the right vote that ushered in an NDP govt, which was unthinkable just a couple of years before. 

Edit. I think the Right struggles with the reality that their deepest desires just are not the preference of most Canadians. They see the success of the right in the US and wonder how they can get that too. But, there's a more rational, thoughtful small C conservative, who likes the current balance but want the needle pushed to the right - more privatization and smallert govt. They're just not sure that the party is working towards that too. 

PPC is just a protest vote now but could be more enticing if they could ditch their horrid leader. There are CPC heavyweights that worry about the direction of the party. 

As long as they keep posting crap. and doing crap, like in the previous few posts the PPC will never be a threat to the CPC. The LIbs and NDP would like to believe that the CPC is over run with far right lunatics and that is simply untrue.  The overwhelming majority of CPC support comes from small c conservatives. In fact, the vast majority of Canadians live in the middle of the political spectrum. It's why there is a healthy ebb and flow of support between the Liberals and CPC party. Both parties are middle of the spectrum primarily with different leanings slightly to the left or the right. It's why the NDP and PPC's of the world are never destined for power. It's why Reform/CA couldn't survive long term because the moderates they brought in found them to be wingnuts and pushed the party to merge back to the middle of the spectrum with the PCs. As a nation, we are neither as progressive or as far right as the extremes seen in the US.  The PPC did a huge favor to the CPC by giving the far right wingnuts a place to park their voice and keep them out of their party's power circles, much the same as the Greens did the same many years ago by taking many of the far lefters away from the NDP allowing them to move a little more to centre and gain some support.

Edited by GCn20
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

As long as they keep posting crap. and doing crap, like in the previous few posts the PPC will never be a threat to the CPC. The LIbs and NDP would like to believe that the CPC is over run with far right lunatics and that is simply untrue.  The overwhelming majority of CPC support comes from small c conservatives. In fact, the vast majority of Canadians live in the middle of the political spectrum. It's why there is a healthy ebb and flow of support between the Liberals and CPC party. Both parties are middle of the spectrum primarily with different leanings slightly to the left or the right. It's why the NDP and PPC's of the world are never destined for power. It's why Reform/CA couldn't survive long term because the moderates they brought in found them to be wingnuts and pushed the party to merge back to the middle of the spectrum with the PCs. As a nation, we are neither as progressive or as far right as the extremes seen in the US.  The PPC did a huge favor to the CPC by giving the far right wingnuts a place to park their voice and keep them out of their party's power circles, much the same as the Greens did the same many years ago by taking many of the far lefters away from the NDP allowing them to move a little more to centre and gain some support.

I tend to agree with this. You need the fringe parties to pull the full-wackos out of the mix. Reform party started as wackos though and eventually absorbed the PCs, while keeping the wackos. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, JCon said:

I tend to agree with this. You need the fringe parties to pull the full-wackos out of the mix. Reform party started as wackos though and eventually absorbed the PCs, while keeping the wackos. 

The PPC has bled off most of the wackos. The Reform party was a regional party more than a wacko party. They tried to broaden their horizons to a more national approach by becoming the CA but were still more or less a regional party. They merged with the PCs and have increasingly lost their grip on the party. They are once again a national party and have been since Harper's majority. They are prone to the fear mongering by the Libs and NDP because of their association with the far right but have become increasingly middle C....to the point that it appears they have a legit shot at forming the next government...albeit a minority.  Trudeau needs to return his party back closer to the middle of the spectrum. He has increasingly taken the party further and further left of centre to the point the centrists are now starting to view the CPC as the party most aligned to the middle of the political spectrum. That's a problem for the Liberals right now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, GCn20 said:

The PPC has bled off most of the wackos. The Reform party was a regional party more than a wacko party. They tried to broaden their horizons to a more national approach by becoming the CA but were still more or less a regional party. They merged with the PCs and have increasingly lost their grip on the party. They are once again a national party and have been since Harper's majority. They are prone to the fear mongering by the Libs and NDP because of their association with the far right but have become increasingly middle C....to the point that it appears they have a legit shot at forming the next government...albeit a minority.  Trudeau needs to return his party back closer to the middle of the spectrum. He has increasingly taken the party further and further left of centre to the point the centrists are now starting to view the CPC as the party most aligned to the middle of the political spectrum. That's a problem for the Liberals right now. 

The problem with the current Liberal platform is not the platform itself but the messenger. Even if you like (or liked) Trudeau he's lost his shine and he's not changing. He's becoming toxic, the way Harper became toxic. People are sick of him. 

There is no middle party right now. The CPC are definitely not in the middle. A centrist party wouldn't deny the existence of human made climate change with the generations of scientific evidence. A centrist party wouldn't have the campaign run by a gun-nut lobbyist. You can have a leader that espouses centrist ideas but the party is not centrist. 

Edited by JCon
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, JCon said:

The problem with the current Liberal platform is not the platform itself but the messenger. Even if you like (or liked) Trudeau he's lost his shine and he's not changing. He's becoming toxic, the way Harper became toxic. People are sick of him. 

There is no middle party right now. The CPC are definitely not in the middle. A centrist party wouldn't deny the existence of human made climate change with the generations of scientific evidence. A centrist party wouldn't have the campaign run by a gun-nut lobbyist. You can have a leader that espouses centrist ideas but the party is not centrist. 

As the leader goes, so goes the party in an election campaign. The party does not deny man made climate change at all. That is a falsehood. The motion with that line in it was rejected at the convention by membership not because anyone is denying climate change, it was defeated because the proposition called for the party to commit to eliminating big oil and transitioning Canada into a green energy world leader. It was only narrowly defeated. That should tell you how many centrists reside in the CPC party. Yes, the Alberta/SSK faction is still strong within the CPC but it is losing it's grip. When a vote to eliminate big oil gains 46% approval at the convention it proves that this party is becoming increasingly closer to the centre. This country needs an economically responsible centrist government badly so I hope they continue down this path because the Liberals have taken a sharp turn left over the past several years.

Edited by GCn20
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

As the leader goes, so goes the party in an election campaign. The party does not deny man made climate change at all. That is a falsehood. The motion with that line in it was rejected at the convention by membership not because anyone is denying climate change, it was defeated because the proposition called for the party to commit to eliminating big oil and transitioning Canada into a green energy world leader. It was only narrowly defeated. That should tell you how many centrists reside in the CPC party. Yes, the Alberta/SSK faction is still strong within the CPC but it is losing it's grip. When a vote to eliminate big oil gains 46% approval at the convention it proves that this party is becoming increasingly closer to the centre. This country needs an economically responsible centrist government badly so I hope they continue down this path because the Liberals have taken a sharp turn left over the past several years.

So what you're saying is that they agree that climate change is real, but are unwilling to do what is needed to solve it?

The party has a history of strongly rejecting climate science. They rejected a motion that would clearly separate them from their history of denying science.

Real question - do you really think their carbon savings account is a better plan to address climate change than the Liberal or NDP plan?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I listened to a rebel podcast last fall or so that was from summer 2020. I wanted to hear first hand what people hear from outside mainstream media. I was surprised to hear how many predictions or claims they made that within a few months were easily confirmed to be false and it made me really wonder how they maintain followers. Do they just forget what they have consumed being obviously false. Or is this how the ultra-wacky conspiracies develop like Covid being a government hoax? People accept what Rebel & Co. say, when presented with credible information that clearly contradicts it, jump off the deep end to preserve their self-esteem by refusing to accept they were wrong?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...