Bigblue204 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, tracker said: Disagree to some extent. What you say is true almost 100% but there are exceptions like Calvillo and McManus who were geniuses in getting the ball away quickly, and at least some of their successes were due to their offensive coaches designing plays to compliment those talents. you're not disagreeing with his statement lol. You're just saying that AC/McManus were good at getting the ball out. However, it was no secret that the more pressure you put on AC, especially when you started hitting him (even if he got the ball off) he got more and more frustrated and would get happy feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty Liver Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, 17to85 said: That's football though. No quarterback does well when they are pressured a bunch. No one. That's why sacks are so important. True enough, but teams won't continually bring the house against a QB they fear, as it leaves their back end vulnerable to exploitation, Having Harris in the backfield should also give them pause for thought, Willy just has to have the patience to take what is given and play cat and mouse with them all game long if necessary. It works for Ricky Ray. LeBird 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 4 hours ago, tracker said: Disagree to some extent. What you say is true almost 100% but there are exceptions like Calvillo and McManus who were geniuses in getting the ball away quickly, and at least some of their successes were due to their offensive coaches designing plays to compliment those talents. They are not exceptions, I can remember lots of games where AC or Mcmanus looked like utter **** because they were getting knocked around all game long. Those guys just played a game that made it hard to pressure them, but some teams did find a way to do it, and Calvillo especially always had a good offensive line and good game plan suited to getting the ball out quickly. The Bombers haven't done a lot of things right on offense the last few seasons, it's not all on the qb, it's not all on the OL, it's not all on the receivers, it's not all on the offensive coordinator, but it does start there and works it's way down the line up. Figure out how to prevent teams from getting all kinds of pressure on the qb and the offense will be better. Doesn't matter how you do it, just do it, it's priority #1. Fatty Liver, Bigblue204 and Fan Boy 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 One of Willy's liabilities is that he is a natural pocket passer and usually means such need more time than a roll-out/scramble QB. If Willy expects to survive in this league he has to adapt to a moving pocket and maybe even run a couple of times per game to keep the opposing D-line honest. Kent Austin could get away with being a drop-back passer but he had the arm, smarts and game plans to succeed. I am not sure Willy has yet established that he deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as Austin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBBFanWest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) Anthony Calvillio - drop back Ricky Ray - drop back Kevin Glenn - drop back I don't think you can make a blanket statement like "pocket passers need more time". It really depends on the offensive system and the peculiarities of the QB in question. Willy needs to release faster, but it has nothing to do with him being a "natural pocket passer". Edited June 17, 2016 by WBBFanWest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty Liver Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 FB should see plenty of playing time this year helping out with the pass protection, Cronk seems to more noticeable than Normand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 There are lots of ways to get a qb more time, time for the coaches to come up with something that works for the players on the team. I suspect we've been seeing a bit too much of wanting players to do things they're not great at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said: Anthony Calvillio - drop back Ricky Ray - drop back Kevin Glenn - drop back I don't think you can make a blanket statement like "pocket passers need more time". It really depends on the offensive system and the peculiarities of the QB in question. Willy needs to release faster, but it has nothing to do with him being a "natural pocket passer". None of those guys are pure pocket passers though. AC made his mark as a guy who was fearless to run and put up 3600+ yards rushing. Ricky ray has over 3k with 469 yards rushing in one season. Glenn has 1700 but is a guy who loves to scramble to through. Hes at his best throwing on the roll out like damon allen or burris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBBFanWest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Just now, wbbfan said: None of those guys are pure pocket passers though. AC made his mark as a guy who was fearless to run and put up 3600+ yards rushing. Ricky ray has over 3k with 469 yards rushing in one season. Glenn has 1700 but is a guy who loves to scramble to through. Hes at his best throwing on the roll out like damon allen or burris. I may be wrong, but just because a guy will occasionally run, is not what defines him as a pocket passer vs a roll out/scrambler. IMO none of those guys (AC, RR, KG) is known as a guy that "made things happen" with their legs type QB. They were "they'll run if there's a huge opening or for their life" guys. Just like Willy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 1 minute ago, WBBFanWest said: I may be wrong, but just because a guy will occasionally run, is not what defines him as a pocket passer vs a roll out/scrambler. IMO none of those guys (AC, RR, KG) is known as a guy that "made things happen" with their legs type QB. They were "they'll run if there's a huge opening or for their life" guys. Just like Willy. AC and glenn cut their teeth as guys who could make things happen on the run. RR doesnt have that reputation but thats because his peak years in edm he had some pretty deep wr cores. Kinda like ac later in montreal. Or damon allen. Not to mention age catching up. Guys like danny mac, and kerwin bell were pure pocket passers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, wbbfan said: AC and glenn cut their teeth as guys who could make things happen on the run. RR doesnt have that reputation but thats because his peak years in edm he had some pretty deep wr cores. Kinda like ac later in montreal. Or damon allen. Not to mention age catching up. Guys like danny mac, and kerwin bell were pure pocket passers. most young qbs do run more though, it's the lack of experience thing. I think you are using pure pocket passer in too narrow a context. Calvillo, Ray and Glenn are/were all pocket quarterbacks who only ran when they had to or to throw guys off. They aren't mobile but when there's enough room they can move. They're all actually in a pretty similar style to Drew Willy. Willy isn't another Kerwin Bell or Danny McManus. He can move if he has to, the same as AC, Ray or Glenn can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, 17to85 said: most young qbs do run more though, it's the lack of experience thing. I think you are using pure pocket passer in too narrow a context. Calvillo, Ray and Glenn are/were all pocket quarterbacks who only ran when they had to or to throw guys off. They aren't mobile but when there's enough room they can move. They're all actually in a pretty similar style to Drew Willy. Willy isn't another Kerwin Bell or Danny McManus. He can move if he has to, the same as AC, Ray or Glenn can. Those two are extreme cases of pocket passers, but a guy like nichols is even much more of a pure pocket passer. Glenn ac and ray all played with some designed qb run plays, and especially glenn has lived on the roll out. They are scramble to pass qbs. Guys who buy time with there feet. Which isnt what a pure pocket passer does. They stand in the pocket even while it collapses they just step up. This is by far the most popular type of qb in the cfl in this era, and the most widely sought after. With the size of the field you can easily run for a first down with a hook slide on a broken play as a mobile qb. But thats not a pocket passer. Idk that young qbs run more then old. Id say if any thing older qbs scramble for firsts selectively more then young qbs. Qbs who lack deep wr cores or a good OL tend to run more. Pocket qb isnt some thing that really applies to the cfl any more. There just arent really any. Mobile/scramble qbs is the order of the day. Willy is really not a guy whose well off throwing on the run at all. Un like glenn ac ray etc. He can scramble but if he tries to throw on the run hold your breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBird Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 59 minutes ago, 17to85 said: There are lots of ways to get a qb more time, time for the coaches to come up with something that works for the players on the team. I suspect we've been seeing a bit too much of wanting players to do things they're not great at. Maybe the coaches have to review what they have been trying to do with players that that might be lacking some talent or experience and rebuild the system to account for those short comings. So the line has a problem holding its ground, while these defensive guys are coming, there's a big hole behind it. With Dressler, Smith and Harris flooding the backfield, we should be able to make them pay and cool their heels. Personally, I don't think Willy was really trying to put on a display in the last game. Edited June 17, 2016 by LeBird Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 If Glenn, Ray, and Calvillo aren't pocket passers then there is no such thing as a pocket passer White Out, Logan007, blitzmore and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 28 minutes ago, wbbfan said: Those two are extreme cases of pocket passers, but a guy like nichols is even much more of a pure pocket passer. Glenn ac and ray all played with some designed qb run plays, and especially glenn has lived on the roll out. They are scramble to pass qbs. Guys who buy time with there feet. Which isnt what a pure pocket passer does. They stand in the pocket even while it collapses they just step up. This is by far the most popular type of qb in the cfl in this era, and the most widely sought after. With the size of the field you can easily run for a first down with a hook slide on a broken play as a mobile qb. But thats not a pocket passer. Idk that young qbs run more then old. Id say if any thing older qbs scramble for firsts selectively more then young qbs. Qbs who lack deep wr cores or a good OL tend to run more. Pocket qb isnt some thing that really applies to the cfl any more. There just arent really any. Mobile/scramble qbs is the order of the day. Willy is really not a guy whose well off throwing on the run at all. Un like glenn ac ray etc. He can scramble but if he tries to throw on the run hold your breathe. Nichols ran a ton before he got his legs broken every time he tried. He's not a guy I'd hold up as an example of a pure pocket passer, he's a guy that used to run until the knees gave out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Out Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 9 minutes ago, Atomic said: If Glenn, Ray, and Calvillo aren't pocket passers then there is no such thing as a pocket passer Next we're going to hear how Peyton Manning is really, at best, a hybrid pocket/scrambler lol Bigblue204 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 11 minutes ago, Atomic said: If Glenn, Ray, and Calvillo aren't pocket passers then there is no such thing as a pocket passer Your letting the final days of calvillo and glenn skew your view of them. Calvillo turned into a guy who stepped up into the pocket glenn is old but is still a guy who'd roll at the sight of pressure rather then step up. There isnt really any more in the cfl. Go watch some danny mac then glenn maybe that will help you see the difference. 3 minutes ago, 17to85 said: Nichols ran a ton before he got his legs broken every time he tried. He's not a guy I'd hold up as an example of a pure pocket passer, he's a guy that used to run until the knees gave out. He would move to avoid the rush and roll a bit but wasnt much of a runner and turned into more of one as much as there is any more in the cfl. 4 minutes ago, White Out said: Next we're going to hear how Peyton Manning is really, at best, a hybrid pocket/scrambler lol he wasnt danny mac levels of un mobile as people might believe but he is certainly the quintessential nfl pocket passer. Never a guy who failed to step up into the pocket when pressured. Not a guy to throw on the run etc. But the nfl pocket passer is different then the cfl as the pocket isnt the same when your under the center 90% of the time vs in the gun 90% of the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBBFanWest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 When everyone is disagreeing with you, there are two possibilities: You are right and all of them are wrong They are right and you are wrong I know which way I'm leaning on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzmore Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 It's not a matter of who is right and who is wrong...it's about tendencies and situations! Logan007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 (edited) 9 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said: When everyone is disagreeing with you, there are two possibilities: You are right and all of them are wrong They are right and you are wrong I know which way I'm leaning on this one. how well has trump done in polls so far? Some times a majority means all the fools are on the same side. Go and watch real pure pocket passers like ive listed play then go watch glenn early-mid ac etc play and come back saying they are pure pocket passers. With the nature of how the cfl uses spread offense and the gun with lop sided pass pro and few rbs who pass block the days of this type of pass may be done for good. When FBs and 2 back sets and TEs were common with established pockets it was different. And is different in the US. Edited June 17, 2016 by wbbfan SPuDS 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blitzmore Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 Wow...now you're quoting yourself...excessive need to be right it appears! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 2 minutes ago, blitzmore said: Wow...now you're quoting yourself...excessive need to be right it appears! maybe you should re-read lol Atomic 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBBFanWest Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I think that the issue is how one defines pocket passer. I'm going with the definition that says that a pocket passer is anyone who tends to drop back and throw from the pocket, but will run occasionally. You seem to be defining a drop back passer as the football throwing machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wbbfan Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 6 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said: I think that the issue is how one defines pocket passer. I'm going with the definition that says that a pocket passer is anyone who tends to drop back and throw from the pocket, but will run occasionally. You seem to be defining a drop back passer as the football throwing machine. By that definition sure. But thats not a pocket passer. Thats a mobile qb/ scrambler. But then drop back isnt really right either, as virtually all cfl teams run the massive amount of plays out of the gun/half gun formation and not under centre. Which is where you drop back from. A pocket passer plays inside the tackle box, steps up in the pocket or moves the pocket in response to pressure. A mobile qb who will break a run, roll out, plays mostly in gun formations, and doesnt require the added blocking schemes. Its also harder to distinguish in this era of the cfl as the majority of qbs sport the same skills currently. No ones starting a qb whose a threat to run for 1k in the season or running for negative yards over the course of the year. Pocket passer is really more of an american term now. Like the Lber/db sub terms we use here. The us doesnt use boundary or field corners, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Dee Posted June 18, 2016 Report Share Posted June 18, 2016 (edited) And here I am reading all this, without nary a pocket to pass in.. Edited June 18, 2016 by Mr Dee blitzmore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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