Guest Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Collaros at the start of the season was being asked to stay in the pocket. He was not effective until the right adjustments were made. You can look at CFL or NFL...the best QB's are pocket passers. Ray, Calvillo, Brady, Manning, et. al. Sure there are some effective scramblers, but the QB's who have had the most long term success are the pocket passers. And really, if you look at the OL the Bombers put on the field this season, it was ridiculous that they didn't perform better with three Americans starting. If they were starting 4 or 5 Canadians, you could argue that the OL is a long term project. But the fact is they aren't, and they should be finding better OL down south. Doug Flutie is the greatest QB and player the CFL has ever had.............. not a pocket QB. Warren Moon, Jackie Parker, Damon Allen, Russ Jackson, I can go all day, were not pocket QB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbill2004 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 O'Shea won't outright bench Willy if he's healthy but I could see O'Shea giving Willy another week of rest because of the hand "injury".Why do you have injury in quotation marks? Because he's likely healthy to play against BC but O'Shea might use the hand injury (even though it's healed) as an excuse to give Marve a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweep the leg Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'm actually more surprised that some are so confounded that people like Marve and want to see him play. Marve has that "it" factor, something of which Willy doesn't, most wanted Collaros here during the off season, and Collaros also has that "it" factor. Makes them exciting to watch, Reilly and Tate the same thing, some guys have it some don't. The Free Press noted that Brohm has moxie, so that makes things interesting. Do you put more stock in moxie or the "it" factor? I remember back in the old days when almost everybody thought Willy had both moxie and the "it" factor. Willy had the disadvantage of having to go back out and prove it week after week though. It's harder to deify a qb that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan007 Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I'm actually more surprised that some are so confounded that people like Marve and want to see him play. Marve has that "it" factor, something of which Willy doesn't, most wanted Collaros here during the off season, and Collaros also has that "it" factor. Makes them exciting to watch, Reilly and Tate the same thing, some guys have it some don't. The Free Press noted that Brohm has moxie, so that makes things interesting. Do you put more stock in moxie or the "it" factor? I remember back in the old days when almost everybody thought Willy had both moxie and the "it" factor. Willy had the disadvantage of having to go back out and prove it week after week though. It's harder to deify a qb that way. PL, you're daydreaming or something if you think Willy doesn't have the "it" factor. Let's look back to the time that Willy came out and replaced Durant in 2012 only to kick our asses throwing for 188 yards and a TD strike. I bet everyone thought he had the "it" factor back then. Some of you guys are just out in the clouds when you've only seen these guys play 1 half of a football game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 The Free Press noted that Brohm has moxie, so that makes things interesting. Do you put more stock in moxie or the "it" factor? I remember back in the old days when almost everybody thought Willy had both moxie and the "it" factor. Willy had the disadvantage of having to go back out and prove it week after week though. It's harder to deify a qb that way. Neither actually, while players with moxie or the it factor are fun to watch at times, neither guarantees that they'll be good players. Personally never thought Willy had either, but yes I do recall when some pointed it out, which only seemed to happen when the bombers got Willy. IIRC most were gaga over Collaros, some even wanted Burris over Willy, or Burris + Willy. PL, you're daydreaming or something if you think Willy doesn't have the "it" factor. Let's look back to the time that Willy came out and replaced Durant in 2012 only to kick our asses throwing for 188 yards and a TD strike. I bet everyone thought he had the "it" factor back then. Some of you guys are just out in the clouds when you've only seen these guys play 1 half of a football game. I didn't, just because others drooled over Willy doesn't mean everybody did. I want to be clear about this, I'm in no way shape or form saying that Willy is a bad QB, he's done well this season and there's no denying it. Obviously Marve and or Brohm could end up being terrible or amazing, (limited sample size means very little) and I'm not saying that either should be the starter over Willy. The only thing I've actually stated was that Brohm and Marve should give the Bombers enough confidence to sit Drew another Game or two so that he can return healthy. I don't see any issue with saying that. Yes, I like Marve's game and would like to see more of him, but if Willy is the best bet to win, play Drew Willy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Collaros at the start of the season was being asked to stay in the pocket. He was not effective until the right adjustments were made. You can look at CFL or NFL...the best QB's are pocket passers. Ray, Calvillo, Brady, Manning, et. al. Sure there are some effective scramblers, but the QB's who have had the most long term success are the pocket passers. And really, if you look at the OL the Bombers put on the field this season, it was ridiculous that they didn't perform better with three Americans starting. If they were starting 4 or 5 Canadians, you could argue that the OL is a long term project. But the fact is they aren't, and they should be finding better OL down south. Doug Flutie is the greatest QB and player the CFL has ever had.............. not a pocket QB.Warren Moon, Jackie Parker, Damon Allen, Russ Jackson, I can go all day, were not pocket QB's. True. But more recently they have been pocket passers. My main point is that we shouldn't be expecting a QB to make up for a subpar OL, given how hard it has been to find a franchise QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Collaros at the start of the season was being asked to stay in the pocket. He was not effective until the right adjustments were made. You can look at CFL or NFL...the best QB's are pocket passers. Ray, Calvillo, Brady, Manning, et. al. Sure there are some effective scramblers, but the QB's who have had the most long term success are the pocket passers. And really, if you look at the OL the Bombers put on the field this season, it was ridiculous that they didn't perform better with three Americans starting. If they were starting 4 or 5 Canadians, you could argue that the OL is a long term project. But the fact is they aren't, and they should be finding better OL down south. Doug Flutie is the greatest QB and player the CFL has ever had.............. not a pocket QB.Warren Moon, Jackie Parker, Damon Allen, Russ Jackson, I can go all day, were not pocket QB's. True. But more recently they have been pocket passers. My main point is that we shouldn't be expecting a QB to make up for a subpar OL, given how hard it has been to find a franchise QB. IMO that has more do to with the coaching philosophies than anything else. Same with down south for years the OC or whomever were developing schemes and design plays for pocket passers, we're slowly seeing coaches plan for the talent they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
do or die Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Like the escape ability and creativity from Marve......but lets see him complete passes from the pocket and run the O, from a somewhat less "desperation" or "schoolyard" mode...... Far too small a sample, to anoint this guy... as this or that.....just yet However, the thought that we actually have 2 or 3 ligit guys playing at QB....gives me a bit of a glow.... Brandon Blue&Gold 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Like the escape ability and creativity from Marve......but lets see him complete passes from the pocket and run the O, from a somewhat less "desperation" or "schoolyard" mode...... Seems to work for Collaros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuranBoldenRules Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Collaros at the start of the season was being asked to stay in the pocket. He was not effective until the right adjustments were made. You can look at CFL or NFL...the best QB's are pocket passers. Ray, Calvillo, Brady, Manning, et. al. Sure there are some effective scramblers, but the QB's who have had the most long term success are the pocket passers. And really, if you look at the OL the Bombers put on the field this season, it was ridiculous that they didn't perform better with three Americans starting. If they were starting 4 or 5 Canadians, you could argue that the OL is a long term project. But the fact is they aren't, and they should be finding better OL down south. Doug Flutie is the greatest QB and player the CFL has ever had.............. not a pocket QB. Warren Moon, Jackie Parker, Damon Allen, Russ Jackson, I can go all day, were not pocket QB's. Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time. Flutie could throw from the pocket if defense's forced him to. That's the important distinction. Guys can be good as scramblers, but if teams fan their ends and force him to stay in the pocket, can he make the throws? Collaros hasn't shown that he can yet IMO, whenever he's been forced to stay in the pocket he has struggled significantly. Scrambling QB's who can't pass are the easiest ones to stop, cause all a defense has to do is be patient and force him to make throws, if he can't make them his team is SOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogi Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Marve is the best QB we've seen since Dinwiddie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokinBlue Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time. facepalm statemetn of the year. Mark F 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuranBoldenRules Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time. facepalm statemetn of the year. Didn't complete 60% of his passes until he was 34 years old. Career QB rating of 84. If Steven Jyles played for 23 seasons, he'd have the passing yards record too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time.facepalm statemetn of the year. Remember the Argos' '04 Grey Cup win? Allen was basically a game manager for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time. Flutie could throw from the pocket if defense's forced him to. That's the important distinction. Guys can be good as scramblers, but if teams fan their ends and force him to stay in the pocket, can he make the throws? Collaros hasn't shown that he can yet IMO, whenever he's been forced to stay in the pocket he has struggled significantly. Scrambling QB's who can't pass are the easiest ones to stop, cause all a defense has to do is be patient and force him to make throws, if he can't make them his team is SOL. I agree about Allen, decent QB who's greatest strength was his legs and longevity. I wrote his name, because he is on the all time passing list, his records and some believe he's a top ten CFL QB. Although McManus' name comes up in that discussion as well and IMO McManus is the epitome of a mediocre QB who played a long time. As for Flutie, he was rarely in the pocket, yes he could throw from the pocket, but that doesn't make him a pocket QB. Collaros showed last season that he could throw in the pocket if need be, but is more comfortable and looks better on the run. Reilly and Crompton also seem like they're more comfortable moving around than staying in the pocket, doesn't mean that they can't. Not sure why people seem to think that unless yo're a pocket QB it means you're no good. Have we all been watching the same CFL ? Garcia is another name that should be added to the scrambling QB list. Match-up the three best scramblers vs. the top 3 pocket passers that have ever played in the CFL.................. honestly which guys would you rather have ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweep the leg Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I'm actually more surprised that some are so confounded that people like Marve and want to see him play. Marve has that "it" factor, something of which Willy doesn't, most wanted Collaros here during the off season, and Collaros also has that "it" factor. Makes them exciting to watch, Reilly and Tate the same thing, some guys have it some don't. The Free Press noted that Brohm has moxie, so that makes things interesting. Do you put more stock in moxie or the "it" factor? I remember back in the old days when almost everybody thought Willy had both moxie and the "it" factor. Willy had the disadvantage of having to go back out and prove it week after week though. It's harder to deify a qb that way. PL, you're daydreaming or something if you think Willy doesn't have the "it" factor. Let's look back to the time that Willy came out and replaced Durant in 2012 only to kick our asses throwing for 188 yards and a TD strike. I bet everyone thought he had the "it" factor back then. Some of you guys are just out in the clouds when you've only seen these guys play 1 half of a football game. I was making fun of people using terms like it factor and moxie like they actually mean something. You've got me lumped in with the wrong group of people. I'm in the "you're crazy if you think Willy has lost his job" crowd. Logan007 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 I just get annoyed when people imply Willy is a lesser QB because he's a pocket passer Logan007 and Noeller 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleLevel Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Damon Allen was a pretty average QB who lasted a long time. Flutie could throw from the pocket if defense's forced him to. That's the important distinction. Guys can be good as scramblers, but if teams fan their ends and force him to stay in the pocket, can he make the throws? Collaros hasn't shown that he can yet IMO, whenever he's been forced to stay in the pocket he has struggled significantly. Scrambling QB's who can't pass are the easiest ones to stop, cause all a defense has to do is be patient and force him to make throws, if he can't make them his team is SOL. I agree about Allen, decent QB who's greatest strength was his legs and longevity. I wrote his name, because he is on the all time passing list, his records and some believe he's a top ten CFL QB. Although McManus' name comes up in that discussion as well and IMO McManus is the epitome of a mediocre QB who played a long time. As for Flutie, he was rarely in the pocket, yes he could throw from the pocket, but that doesn't make him a pocket QB. Collaros showed last season that he could throw in the pocket if need be, but is more comfortable and looks better on the run. Reilly and Crompton also seem like they're more comfortable moving around than staying in the pocket, doesn't mean that they can't. Not sure why people seem to think that unless yo're a pocket QB it means you're no good. Have we all been watching the same CFL ? Garcia is another name that should be added to the scrambling QB list. Match-up the three best scramblers vs. the top 3 pocket passers that have ever played in the CFL.................. honestly which guys would you rather have ? At the risk of opening up a whole can of worms; Doug Flutie, Warren Moon, and Garcia/Dunigan/Ham vs Calvillo, Ray, and Lancaster/McManus? I'd go with the scramblers.....and yeh, I know I've missed a few on this list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark H. Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Minus Flutie I'd pick the pocket passers no questions asked. Can = opened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuranBoldenRules Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Not old enough to remember CFL Warren Moon, but NFL Warren Moon sure as hell wasn't a scrambling QB, more like a good version of Henry Burris. Dunigan wouldn't be a scrambling QB in my mind either. BattleLevel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBieber Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Quarterback wins is the most overrated stat there is. bearpants 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 There weren't that many rushing QBs in the Warren Moon era that I can think of... that really emerged in the 1990s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BattleLevel Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 Not old enough to remember CFL Warren Moon, but NFL Warren Moon sure as hell wasn't a scrambling QB, more like a good version of Henry Burris. Dunigan wouldn't be a scrambling QB in my mind either. Yeh, I wasn't sure about including moon, but I kinda used the same comparison of Burris. I suppose I'm using not just rushing yards, but the ability to keep a play alive with their legs in my definition of scrambling. What qualifies a QB as a 'running qb' is pretty subjective Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fatty Liver Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 And as for Marve I don't think you build your team around someone that has had3 ACL operations. Careere backup at best. Marve doesn't have an ACL anymore in the one knee. That'd make it impossible to reinjure. I don't even understand how this is possible but nonetheless it still scares me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbill2004 Posted October 20, 2014 Report Share Posted October 20, 2014 And as for Marve I don't think you build your team around someone that has had3 ACL operations. Careere backup at best.Marve doesn't have an ACL anymore in the one knee. That'd make it impossible to reinjure. I don't even understand how this is possible but nonetheless it still scares me. Read this: http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/blogpost?blogname=bigten&id=61338&src=desktop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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