Argos at Bombers early chat

[Booch]

14 minutes ago, ShyGuy said:

The West has been a blood bath for receivers so far it seems. I think BC has been relatively healthy though. Riders have lost of bunch. What Calgary trots out tonight will probably look worse than the Bombers do tomorrow. Elks are... the Elks.

I'd take Rhymes..Brooks and Philpot over 2 of our guys that are starting

[rebusrankin]

Riders have had Bane, KSB and Emilus all miss time and they still have had Meyers, Johnson and Robustelli look good.

Calgary has lost Alford, Begelton, Philpott and still have Rhymes and Brooks tonight.

Us however not so good

[Noeller]

I don't give a **** what the roster is... Whose fault is whose....blah blah blah.

Just ******* win. **** everything else. 

[BomberBall.]

9 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I don't give a **** what the roster is... Whose fault is whose....blah blah blah.

Just ******* win. **** everything else. 

Sure, but the roster is a pretty big part of just ******* winning.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

Check down RB or receiver - 6 of one, half a dozen of the other 

Anyway, here are their numbers for passing and running attempts.  (Wikipedia)

Harris (2016-2021): 1194 / 5 = 239 / season

Oliviera (2021 - 2024): 922 / 4 = 231 / season

Their busiest seasons are actually quite similar. 

Harris:

2017: 294

2019: 295

Oliviera:

2023: 298

2024: 296

 

It is a big difference actually. between lining up as a pass catcher or running a downfield route, or catching a quick pass behind the line. 

Exactly, because the offense hasn't changed much since then. The ball distribution is identical. We heavily depend on the same IZR play very heavily, and check down to the back in extended hand-offs frequently. 

"...but the O no longer runs primarily through the RB, both passing and running, the way it did when Andrew Harris was starting." 

Not only did that not happen, but we are almost identical in the volume and way we use our back. 

 

The biggest change in our offence from 17/18 to now is that Zach will frequently take deep shots. Nichols tried to take some of the same shots, but didn't have the ability to throw deep like Zach does. The change from Nichols (and Strev) to Zach is a ridiculous amount of change we've seen. Not the change of 3 Cos in that time. The system changes are pretty few and limited compared to the QB change. Which was the point I was making? 

 

Lapo liked to be more modular than Buck or Hogan. We would run any play out of any formation with him as OC. That dipped with buck. Lapo would also throw out 1 or 2 random plays that would be more exotic in a week or two. Buck didn't do that; Hogan does it again. Lapo liked check downs, Buck wanted screens more. That is most of the variance. If you looked at the top 5-6 passing concepts, you'd see the same plays save for 1 or so per co. Even at that, we saw the most variance from Buck and his broken playbook last year compared to his previous year. Taking vanilla ice cream and trading it for plain ice cream with reduced amounts of vanilla extract. 

 

Right now, Hogan is running watered-down lapo stuff. Even by the standard buck set last year. It's like the downside of what we had with Lapo, without the upside. 

1 hour ago, Booch said:

There is a minimum PR salary...but teams can pay guys whatever they want above and beyond that....and we have before, so unsure what he is getting...possibly?....If I was him tho I'd decline and refuse to agree to be "injured" so they either roster him....or have to release him, as I sure he wants to play...he's be scooped up in short order and probably in a lineup just as fast....

I don't know that it was publicly stated, but it does seem like the way they are using the increased salary cap this year is on carrying more full non-AR guys at full dollar. 

1 hour ago, ShyGuy said:

The West has been a blood bath for receivers so far it seems. I think BC has been relatively healthy though. Riders have lost of bunch. What Calgary trots out tonight will probably look worse than the Bombers do tomorrow. Elks are... the Elks.

It's true, it's been the same for QBs across the league too. Just the worst-case scenario for the CFL in terms of entertainment. 

[wbbfan]

59 minutes ago, Booch said:

I'd take Rhymes..Brooks and Philpot over 2 of our guys that are starting

Think we have the worst WR core in the league. Schoen, going Robert Gordon alone is enough to drop us into the bottom bracket. The rest is just salt in the wound. 

If Wilson came back, that would make us much better than we are, but I think we'd be mid-tier at best then. The job Schoen and Lawler used to do was the most important for Zach in the passing game. 

 We need to find a guy who can make hay over the middle and excel in 50/50 situations. A few guys can do that a little, but not full-time at a high level. 

[ShyGuy]

1 hour ago, Booch said:

I'd take Rhymes..Brooks and Philpot over 2 of our guys that are starting

I'd take Philpot as well but he is on the 1 game with Alford

WRs for the Stamps are Rhymes, Tevin Jones, Brooks, Erik Baldwin, Kaylen Horton and Vyshonne Janusas... 3 rookies, a 2nd year guy and then 2 vets. 

Edited 23 hours ago by ShyGuy

[rebusrankin]

5 minutes ago, ShyGuy said:

I'd take Philpot as well but he is on the 1 game with Alford

WRs for the Stamps are Rhymes, Tevin Jones, Brooks, Erik Baldwin, Kaylen Horton and Vyshonne Janusas... 3 rookies, a 2nd year guy and then 2 vets. 

I'd take any two out of Rhymes, Jones or Brooks over Sterns and Wheatfall.

[wbbfan]

I feel like we are getting to make or break time with Strevy as well. 

 It's not exactly a fair situation for him, but it never really is at QB. 

Zach is banged up again this year, and his stats are heavily padded based off 1 game vs Edm. Take that game away, and in 5 starts Zach has: 69% completion, 687 passing yards for 137 per game, 7.3 yards per attempt, with 4 passing tds, and 8 picks.  8 picks on 96 attempts is wild. He did get pulled twice for injury, but that only makes it worse. 

 

Game 1, Strevy was really solid. 246, 3 tds 1 int, 10.3 per attempt, last week in junk time throwing under the D he was solid as well. We would've been in the last game with a full start from Strev imo. Even though his production was padded by the situation. The 2nd Calgary game, where Strevy came in, was ugly though. 

Strev isn't going to get a clear shot at replacing Zach. It'll have to be a game like this where he steps up and overperforms in a tough spot. 

[sweep the leg]

24 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

I'd take any two out of Rhymes, Jones or Brooks over Sterns and Wheatfall.

I’d take Rhymes.

Sterns and Brooks are basically the same player. Same age, same size, same numbers. Only difference is Brooks is in a better offense.

Jones is the kind of guy this site would be complaining about us not trying to upgrade from. Old and just ok.

[JuranBoldenRules]

28 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

I’d take Rhymes.

Sterns and Brooks are basically the same player. Same age, same size, same numbers. Only difference is Brooks is in a better offense.

Jones is the kind of guy this site would be complaining about us not trying to upgrade from. Old and just ok.

Tevin Jones is kind of the exact player we need.  Just kind of a reliable, do everything kind of receiver.  Like Bailey who we never replaced.

IMO Rhymes is no better than Wheatfall at this stage, kind of just good at one thing, struggles in short-intermediate to be productive.

Edited 22 hours ago by JuranBoldenRules

[voodoochylde]

16 hours ago, Noeller said:

I don't give a **** what the roster is... Whose fault is whose....blah blah blah.

Just ******* win. **** everything else. 

That’s great and all but your roster, its makeup and how they’re deployed on game day go a long way to making that happen.

Next man up is a great idea until that next man is nothing more than a career pylon.

[Bigblue204]

Right now its not looking great to even play tomorrow. Air quality has been **** all week (youth football practices have been canceled) and tomorrow night isnt supposed to be any better.

[bryan35]

Air quality health index is 8 or higher they won't play. Right now it's forecasted to be 9.

 

https://www.cfl.ca/weather/

 

[WinnipegGordo]

Saturday is supposed to be a bit better. 

I wonder when we'll start hearing updates from the club or league. 

Hopefully fans are kept more informed than Riders fans were a couple of weeks ago.

[wbbfan]

17 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Right now its not looking great to even play tomorrow. Air quality has been **** all week (youth football practices have been canceled) and tomorrow night isnt supposed to be any better.

TBH, if this game gets delayed, I think that plays in our favor. Though it likely only gets pushed a day or so. 

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

I feel like we are getting to make or break time with Strevy as well. 

 It's not exactly a fair situation for him, but it never really is at QB. 

Zach is banged up again this year, and his stats are heavily padded based off 1 game vs Edm. Take that game away, and in 5 starts Zach has: 69% completion, 687 passing yards for 137 per game, 7.3 yards per attempt, with 4 passing tds, and 8 picks.  8 picks on 96 attempts is wild. He did get pulled twice for injury, but that only makes it worse. 

 

Game 1, Strevy was really solid. 246, 3 tds 1 int, 10.3 per attempt, last week in junk time throwing under the D he was solid as well. We would've been in the last game with a full start from Strev imo. Even though his production was padded by the situation. The 2nd Calgary game, where Strevy came in, was ugly though. 

Strev isn't going to get a clear shot at replacing Zach. It'll have to be a game like this where he steps up and overperforms in a tough spot. 

I am not sure that anything less than a Doug Flutie-grade game will move him ahead of Collaros in O'Shea's mind. Maybe not even then.

[Bigblue204]

8 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

TBH, if this game gets delayed, I think that plays in our favor. Though it likely only gets pushed a day or so. 

Not in mine...im heading to the lake on Saturday. 

[rebusrankin]

If they did push it back, there is a game at 2 pm Winnipeg time and one at 6pm. Would they run two games Saturday afternoon or wait until Sunday?

[wbbfan]

6 minutes ago, Tracker said:

I am not sure that anything less than a Doug Flutie-grade game will move him ahead of Collaros in O'Shea's mind. Maybe not even then.

Not as such one game, no, but it starts with one game. You could argue the season opener was that, but it won't take many bad appearances to have him cooked imo. 

A big game puts the heat on the mafia when Zach continues to be late-stage Zach. 

7 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Not in mine...im heading to the lake on Saturday. 

No net/cable at the lake? Honestly, that sounds even better lol. 

[Bigblue204]

2 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

No net/cable at the lake? Honestly, that sounds even better lol. 

There is, but i love going to games.

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

Zach is banged up again this year, and his stats are heavily padded based off 1 game vs Edm. Take that game away, and in 5 starts Zach has: 69% completion, 687 passing yards for 137 per game, 7.3 yards per attempt, with 4 passing tds, and 8 picks.  8 picks on 96 attempts is wild. He did get pulled twice for injury, but that only makes it 

Whoa, I would never have guessed that ZC8 is completing almost 70%. If he  could avoid other jerseys more often, he might get something going. 

[Mark H.]

4 hours ago, wbbfan said:

It is a big difference actually. between lining up as a pass catcher or running a downfield route, or catching a quick pass behind the line. 

Exactly, because the offense hasn't changed much since then. The ball distribution is identical. We heavily depend on the same IZR play very heavily, and check down to the back in extended hand-offs frequently. 

"...but the O no longer runs primarily through the RB, both passing and running, the way it did when Andrew Harris was starting." 

Not only did that not happen, but we are almost identical in the volume and way we use our back. 

The biggest change in our offence from 17/18 to now is that Zach will frequently take deep shots. Nichols tried to take some of the same shots, but didn't have the ability to throw deep like Zach does. The change from Nichols (and Strev) to Zach is a ridiculous amount of change we've seen. Not the change of 3 Cos in that time. The system changes are pretty few and limited compared to the QB change. Which was the point I was making? 

Lapo liked to be more modular than Buck or Hogan. We would run any play out of any formation with him as OC. That dipped with buck. Lapo would also throw out 1 or 2 random plays that would be more exotic in a week or two. Buck didn't do that; Hogan does it again. Lapo liked check downs, Buck wanted screens more. That is most of the variance. If you looked at the top 5-6 passing concepts, you'd see the same plays save for 1 or so per co. Even at that, we saw the most variance from Buck and his broken playbook last year compared to his previous year. Taking vanilla ice cream and trading it for plain ice cream with reduced amounts of vanilla extract. 

Right now, Hogan is running watered-down lapo stuff. Even by the standard buck set last year. It's like the downside of what we had with Lapo, without the upside. 

I will admit that I thought the focus on O had shifted more to the passing game. I remember guys like Darvin Adams, Rasheed Bailey and Drew Wolitarski, doing tons of effective blocking downfield as receivers. I feel we are seeing less of that, but the numbers show that RB touches have not changed much. I actually find that to be quite odd.

I would say ZC goes deep more, while MN would throw more check downs - good thing he had a reliable RB and receivers willing to block.

As for Hogan being watered down Lapo, I think you're right and I find it confusing. Why would an experienced HC and veteran QB settle for mediocrity?

[Colin Unger]

I would like to have seen Allen at safety. Now we back to starting 9 Canadians again.

[Bigblue204]

Forecast still has air quality at 10 for game time....not looking good