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The Star Wars Thread


FrostyWinnipeg

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3 hours ago, JCon said:

And it's 50% on Rotten Tomatoes, so......

I dunno...  86 on metacritic,  7.1/10 on imdb and 91% on Rotten Tomatoes is what I see when I looked.    The movie is very highly rated.

No matter how any large franchise with a dedicated cult /  fan boy following will always have people who will complain since it did not follow the vision that they had. 

The only negativity I've read is on here.     If the movie was so bad then how come the folks on here who are complaining went to go see it a 2nd time? 

Putting my personal opinion of the movie aside,   the numbers are showing that people love the movie and that it is a hit.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

You don't need to be some kind of genius to have made that movie good. Hell you can even keep most of the basic points that were in the movie and churned out a good one, but you can not be as lazy as they were with the writing. It's like the only people that they actually tried to have any kind of real character development for were Rey and Kylo, and if that's where they want to focus things that's fine, but then why did we waste so much of the movie with other characters that could have been cut from the movie without anything ever changing? 

Are you saying that any of the Lucas made Star Wars had excellent writing in them?     Have you re-watched Episode 1 , 2 or 3 lately?    

If we are going to nitpick on the new movies,  can we not remember how clunky the originals were with so many in cohesive plot lines and pointless scenes? 

Star Wars has and always will be about the amazing special effects,  over the top action sequences,   the sci-fi,  the creative set pieces/planets and the uniqueness of the characters/creatures.      It's never been about great writing and plots that make any sense. 

If we are going to nitpick about the smallest details then wouldn't the originals be absolute garbage because of the weird Luke/Leia relationship in the first movie,   how Han Solos character flip flops,  either the inclusion or lack of a more detailed story of Boba Fett,  anything with the Ewoks, the death/reveal of Darth Vader etc....   

I think people have some kind of bizarre unrealistic expectations that no matter what the new movie did would never match.      

People need to rewatch the Lucas films (which I did recently) and then take a step back and realize that they were all cornball and terribly written.   

 

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6 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I dunno...  86 on metacritic,  7.1/10 on imdb and 91% on Rotten Tomatoes is what I see when I looked.    The movie is very highly rated.

No matter how any large franchise with a dedicated cult /  fan boy following will always have people who will complain since it did not follow the vision that they had. 

The only negativity I've read is on here.     If the movie was so bad then how come the folks on here who are complaining went to go see it a 2nd time? 

Putting my personal opinion of the movie aside,   the numbers are showing that people love the movie and that it is a hit.  

 

 

Im not sure what a bad Star Wars number would look like, under a billion dollars?  Its all relative. 

I saw it twice for two reasons.  I had already bought tickets for Christmas Eve because the gf wanted to see it (we had seen TFA on Boxing Day when it came out) but I was in Mexico when TLJ was released and I was getting antsy about spoilers.  I went to Plaza Las Americas one day and the film was playing two hours later which gave me time to check out the mall.  So I saw it first in Mexico.

I loved Mark Hamill's performance.  When I see a film that really disappoints me (ie. I expected it to be a lot better) and when it has elements I really like, I always want to see it again to really dissect it.  When you see it for the first time, your expectations are different and you pick up different things.  Especially a film like this where I know Im going to discuss it with people, I owe it to the discussion to have carefully watched it.  And the first time I see a film, I try to be lost in the narrative and really enjoy it rather then "look" for things.

Seeing a second time served my opinion better because I liked it more.  But it reinforced those elements I disliked.  Whereas I was confused or disappointed or shell shocked upon first viewing, there were times I caught myself physically reacting on second viewing (like shaking my head).

Rotten Tomatoes is probably never a good gauge of a films quality, unless maybe its a really really bad score.    its also possible, as previously mentioned, to like a bad movie. 

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3 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Are you saying that any of the Lucas made Star Wars had excellent writing in them?     Have you re-watched Episode 1 , 2 or 3 lately?    

If we are going to nitpick on the new movies,  can we not remember how clunky the originals were with so many in cohesive plot lines and pointless scenes? 

Star Wars has and always will be about the amazing special effects,  over the top action sequences,   the sci-fi,  the creative set pieces/planets and the uniqueness of the characters/creatures.      It's never been about great writing and plots that make any sense. 

If we are going to nitpick about the smallest details then wouldn't the originals be absolute garbage because of the weird Luke/Leia relationship in the first movie,   how Han Solos character flip flops,  either the inclusion or lack of a more detailed story of Boba Fett,  anything with the Ewoks, the death/reveal of Darth Vader etc....   

I think people have some kind of bizarre unrealistic expectations that no matter what the new movie did would never match.      

People need to rewatch the Lucas films (which I did recently) and then take a step back and realize that they were all cornball and terribly written.   

 

Everything you just said was wrong.

Firstly, you cannot hold up the PT as some way to defend the Last Jedi.  One has nothing to do with the other (different writers, different directors, different owners).  And while I have a friend who thinks Attack of the Clones was the best of all Star Wars films, the PT is generally considered shitty.  And yet, some people like them.  Which doesnt serve your argument that those that dislike TLJ are somehow angry nerds or something.

You also cant really compare modern film making and modern audience sensibilities to the 70's.  And yet, TFA, which was better than TLJ is simpler and more akin to the OT.  But regardless, audiences DO expect better writing now.  They expected it when The Phantom Menace came out too.  That film was not loved. 

The OT had clear plots and were expertly edited into a cohesive narrative.  I'd certainly argue that the OT were poorly written as far as the finished product.  There is a lot of discussion about what Lucas created and what his then-wife salvaged through editing.  A New Hope is a pretty straightforward plot. I dont find it clunky at all.  Empire, same thing.  Return suffers by the inclusion of the Ewoks, but again, the narrative is pretty clear, especially once Lucas knew he was making the trilogy.

ANH and ESB are more cohesive together and as part of the trilogy than TLJ and TFA are together.  We have to reserve judgement on the trilogy as a whole.

I appreciate your devotion to your opinion, but you havent provided a single relevant position that counters the perspectives of thise who have disliked it and given reason for the dislike.  You dont have to either.  "Because I liked it" is good enough but then Im not sure why you continue to argue that its better than many of us think it is.  If you feel we're all wrong, argue our specific points.  No one can argue that you're not entitled to your opinion.  But your opinion of enjoyment doesnt mean everyone else is wrong that the film just isnt that good, as visually appealing as it might be.

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Also keep in mind that Lawrence Kasdan helped write Empire and Return, TFA and the upcoming Han Solo films.  He did not contribute to the PT or TLJ.  And Lucas not having his wife edit the PT (they were divorced) should not be understated as well.   Its a shame JJ didnt keep Kasdan on to flesh out the entire trilogy.

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24 minutes ago, Brandon said:

It's never been about great writing and plots that make any sense. 

I disagree with this. Lucas wrote some super clunky dialogue, but the plot and story was actually pretty cohesive. I don't expect Oscar worthy screen writing, but I expect them to actually follow the basics of story telling. You know, things like show don't tell, don't waste time on useless things. Develop characters properly. Those are things the original movies did well that this movie did not do. 

I mean in the original Star Wars movies no one had to constantly talk about how bad ass Darth Vader was, we saw it on screen multiple times. Whereas Kylo Ren, his power is talked about far more than it is ever shown. Just one example. 

It is possible to point out the flaws in this movie without it simply being dismissed because you like the movie. This is a flawed movie and everyone who knows anything about making movies will agree with that. 

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6 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

I disagree with this. Lucas wrote some super clunky dialogue, but the plot and story was actually pretty cohesive. I don't expect Oscar worthy screen writing, but I expect them to actually follow the basics of story telling. You know, things like show don't tell, don't waste time on useless things. Develop characters properly. Those are things the original movies did well that this movie did not do. 

I mean in the original Star Wars movies no one had to constantly talk about how bad ass Darth Vader was, we saw it on screen multiple times. Whereas Kylo Ren, his power is talked about far more than it is ever shown. Just one example. 

It is possible to point out the flaws in this movie without it simply being dismissed because you like the movie. This is a flawed movie and everyone who knows anything about making movies will agree with that. 

Very much agree.  Kasdan helped improve the dialogue in Empire and Return a lot.  But A New Hope is by no means terrible.  Which is to be expected as the film Lucas tooled with the longest. 

The reason they keep telling us Kylo is so powerful is because what we see is the opposite, sadly.

And I agree that this film is shockingly flawed given the expertise working on it.  Its one of those things where, had they fired Rian and brought on someone to punch up the script it wouldnt have surprised me.  The casino subplot is really not needed.  But if you cut that, you need something else for Finn.  The silly "we cant shoot the rebel ships" plot isnt *terrible* but pretty weak, but again, if you dont have it, you dont have the "beat the clock" narrative.  If you cut the shitty things, you have a film that is about 40 minutes long.  It needed a revamp.

The comedy is shoe-horned.  The Snoke death and Rey revelation are weak and make little sense.  And Luke isnt true to the character we know and conversely, there was no reason good enough to justify his change.  Even Poe, who arguably had the best arc, was stepped back for the purpose of showing growth, rather then growing him from where he left off in TFA.

Flawed film.  100%

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2 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Something ironic about quoting the movie you're criticizing so heavily... :D

I actually liked that line in the movie especially because the first time Luke says it sets up the second time he does.  That was well done.  But I cannot overstate how good Mark Hamill was in this film.  Had it been a BETTER movie, he could be up for awards.  I believed every word out of his mouth and if you zoomed in on his eyes for the entire performance, you'd know exactly what he was feeling.  His best performance as Luke by far, even with the worst material.

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I like the consistency in the Skywalker dudes, how they're all whiners.  Luke was going into Toschi station, Anakin hates sand, Kylo Ren is being torn apart and needs to talk to his -security blankie- grandfather helmet.

This is how I know Rey will not be a secret Skywalker, she lacks the necessary whininess.

Quote

But how many kids want to be "A nobody from a junk planet".

It seemed to work okay for Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter and Neo and so forth.

And let's not get into this "true fans don't like TLJ" thing.  I'm a ******* giant star wars nerd (though I didn't read much of the EU beyond the Zahn books).  Star Wars was the first movie I ever saw in a theater -- I was six -- and it messed me up for life.   I will put my star wars trivia skills up against anyone.  And I will never call Episode IV anything other than Star Wars, because that's its name, goddammit.

For me, the Last Jedi divide is between people who  have a template in their heads for what a Star Wars movie HAS to have ... it's gotta be about dynasties struggling for control of the force, oodles of secret backstory, epic space battles, a very tight plot with continuously escalating threats, plucky heroes succeeding against all odds, jaw-dropping lightsaber fights, etc.  The Force Awakens  was exactly that movie (minus jaw-dropping lightsaber, I guess), and it was pretty decent, but it was also really safe and stale and lazy.  Another trench run destroying another Death Star?  Try ******* harder, JJ.

What I want is something that is enough like Star Wars that I recognize it but also something that's fresh enough that it's still surprising, and TLJ was exactly that, so it worked great for me.

Edited by johnzo
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1 minute ago, johnzo said:

I like the consistency in the Skywalker dudes, how they're all whiners.  Luke was going into Toschi station, Anakin hates sand, Kylo Ren is being torn apart and needs to talk to his -security blankie- grandfather helmet.

This is how I know Rey will not be a secret Skywalker, she lacks the necessary whininess.

It seemed to work okay for Luke Skywalker and Harry Potter and Neo and so forth.

And let's not get into this "true fans don't like TLJ" thing.  I'm a ******* giant star wars nerd (though I didn't read much of the EU beyond the Zahn books).  Star Wars was the first movie I ever saw in a theater -- I was six -- and it messed me up for life.   I will put my star wars trivia skills up against anyone.  And I will never call Episode IV anything other than Star Wars, because that's its name, goddammit.

For me, the Last Jedi divide is between people who  have a template in their heads for what Star Wars movie HAS to have ... it's gotta be about dynasties struggling for control of the force, oodles of secret backstory, epic space battles, a very tight plot with continuously escalating threats, plucky heroes succeeding against all odds, jaw-dropping lightsaber fights, etc.  The Force Awakens  was exactly that movie (minus jaw-dropping lightsaber, I guess), and it was pretty decent, but it was also really safe and stale and lazy.  Another trench run destroying another Death Star?  Try ******* harder, JJ.

What I want is something that is enough like Star Wars that I recognize it but also something that's fresh enough that it's still surprising, and TLJ was exactly that, so it worked great for me.

Agree and disagree.  I dont think the divide is "true fan" vs "casual".   I think if you have no knowledge of Star Wars, you have a better chance of liking it.  Most of the criticism involves knowing Luke Skywalker although much of it too is TLJ not paying off TFA so you could have a 12 year fan that hates it too.

And I agree with you that Luke was presented as lowly farmer with big dreams.  So at that time, we could live vicariously through Luke.  But as it turns out, he did come from a Force Dynasty and there was a lot of thought of fate in his becoming a Jedi.  And thats what I think Disney wanted in Rey - the every-girl that every girl identifies with. 

And if Rian creates a new trilogy with those themes, great.  Good for him.  Hopefully its better than TLJ but we likely wont be critical of certain things in a fresh narrative that we are in a SAGA film.

One of the weakest aspects to this trilogy, for me, is it doesnt connect to the previous six.  Its a SAGA.  Its SUPPOSED to connect.  More over, as Kennedy proclaimed, "This is the Skywalker Saga". 

So when Rian walks into my office and says "I have some new ideas to really turn the idea of the Force and the Skywalkers on its ear" I'd reply "thats great, Rian.  We really encourage fresh ideas here...as long as its within these strict guidelines of the Star Wars Skywalker Saga."  And thats what I feel was the issue with Rian and this film. 

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1 hour ago, Brandon said:

The only negativity I've read is on here.     If the movie was so bad then how come the folks on here who are complaining went to go see it a 2nd time? 

 

Is this the only place you've read anything?  Because I see the hate for it all over.  And none of us really said we hated it, we just didn't like it and the story was crap and didn't flow nicely.  It's like Rian just wrote it this way so that he could go against everything the fans wanted just to make it "different".

Also, a lot of us went a second time because we thought this we going to be good and pre-purchased tickets in advanced and also promised friends and family we'd go with them.

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1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Are you saying that any of the Lucas made Star Wars had excellent writing in them?     Have you re-watched Episode 1 , 2 or 3 lately?    

 

Dude, the prequels were garbage.  If you're equating this movie to those, you're setting a ridiculously low bar.  I mean, the ideas in the prequels are good, but that's where it ends.  The story, dialogue, editing, etc... are garbage.  George was a great idea man, and I wish Disney would have kept him around for ideas and special effects, because that's what he was good at. 

In relation to how good these movies are in my opinion going from worst to best, it's:

The Phantom Menace

Attack of the Clones

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Revenge of the Sith

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----- Many more of these lines....

The Last Jedi

Rogue One

A New Hope

The Force Awakens

Return of the Jedi

Empire Strikes Back

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12 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

Is this the only place you've read anything?  Because I see the hate for it all over.  And none of us really said we hated it, we just didn't like it and the story was crap and didn't flow nicely.  It's like Rian just wrote it this way so that he could go against everything the fans wanted just to make it "different".

Also, a lot of us went a second time because we thought this we going to be good and pre-purchased tickets in advanced and also promised friends and family we'd go with them.

Not only criticism everywhere but a lot of the entertainment news sites have run stories about the backlash.  Someone would have to be living in a cave to think the film has been universally praised except by Morning Big Blue members.  lol

And I agree with what you said about Rian.  I think Lucasfilm over-reacted to backlash on TFA being a rehash and decided to go with something different for the sake of being different.  Rian said hey I have some different ideas and thats what we got.  Also, whether consciously or not, I think Rian felt he should do HIS movie but it was a direct sequel to TFA so he owed it to the story to not tell a NEW story, but to pick up on the plot threads of TFA.  If he didnt want to continue someone else's story, he shouldnt have taken the job.  Then again, when he turned in his story, Kathleen should have replaced him.  JJ should have done all three, for better or worse.  WITH KASDAN.

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@Logan007 Im with you.  When TFA came out, I pledged to friends that it was "the best one since Empire...maybe Return".  So Im right with you on that.

There is no explanation for how bad the PT was.  But as you said, some of the ideas were good.  I think George lost touch with the purpose of film making though.  I recall he was bent out of shape with the backlash and basically said, after Revenge, that he was done because why make movies if everyone is going to insult them.  And I can accept that a film maker is an artist that has to be true to his craft but he forgets that the reason he could make terrible terrible films is because the fans made him a billionaire. 

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4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Not only criticism everywhere but a lot of the entertainment news sites have run stories about the backlash.  Someone would have to be living in a cave to think the film has been universally praised except by Morning Big Blue members.  lol

And I agree with what you said about Rian.  I think Lucasfilm over-reacted to backlash on TFA being a rehash and decided to go with something different for the sake of being different.  Rian said hey I have some different ideas and thats what we got.  Also, whether consciously or not, I think Rian felt he should do HIS movie but it was a direct sequel to TFA so he owed it to the story to not tell a NEW story, but to pick up on the plot threads of TFA.  If he didnt want to continue someone else's story, he shouldnt have taken the job.  Then again, when he turned in his story, Kathleen should have replaced him.  JJ should have done all three, for better or worse.  WITH KASDAN.

Problem is, Kasdan didn't want to do it.  Not sure why.  I've seen interviews with him and he just doesn't seem interested for whatever reason.  Apparently George asked him to help him write the prequels and Kasdan said "no George, you should write them all".  Not sure if he saw where George was headed and just noped right out of it.

Maybe he got the same take from JJ a bit and was just like...nah, without Han Solo in it I don't want to write it.  Han just seems to be his guy.

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8 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

Problem is, Kasdan didn't want to do it.  Not sure why.  I've seen interviews with him and he just doesn't seem interested for whatever reason.  Apparently George asked him to help him write the prequels and Kasdan said "no George, you should write them all".  Not sure if he saw where George was headed and just noped right out of it.

Maybe he got the same take from JJ a bit and was just like...nah, without Han Solo in it I don't want to write it.  Han just seems to be his guy.

Thats possible.  If I recall, the story with the Han Solo film is, the reason they fired the directors was because they were butting heads with Kasdan and HIS vision.  Kennedy chose Kasdan.  So perhaps he saw that same conflict with JJ and didnt want to go to war.  But his son worked on Solo too...maybe he could be enlisted to help.

I thought he just wanted to retire but then he took on Solo.  Seems both his kids are both writers and directors.  They should bring the whole family in for Star Wars if it saves us from another RIan Johnson mess.

Edited by The Unknown Poster
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You don't have to look very hard to find people disliking this movie, and that includes both huge Star Wards nerds or people who are more casual fans of the series. 

Hell Noeller has never watched a Star Wars movie and about the only thing he knows about The Last Jedi is that the reaction has been negative. So if you are unaware that it's not universally loved you have got to be living under a rock. 

Honestly it's problems all come down to poor writing and directing. I don't know a lot about Rian Johnson but based purely on this movie I would say that he is completely unprepared to take on a blockbuster like this. JJ Abrams did a much better job with The Force Awakens. I would have liked to see what he did with the story he set up, because it's obvious that continuing that story wasn't important to the people who made this movie. 

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2 hours ago, JCon said:

The one that is clear with this TLJ controversy, the Bombers need to keep re-signing their FAs to keep us focused on what really matters in life, the Blue and Gold. :)

But this TLJ thread is where I go to argue when I'm tired of the Richie Hall threads!

I'm just glad the two year Skywalker saga off-season is easier to handle than the six month CFL off-season....

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