Figured I'd make this thread since I always point out that "advanced" statistics do NOT favor Buck Pierce when comparing him against other quarterbacks. I'll try and update this weekly just to keep it current especially with Hall playing this week to add another comparison.

 

What I looked at mostly was % of two and outs, average offense per drive, points per possession, etc. For the sake of continuity, when I tally this stuff up, I counted a turnover prior to a first down being gained as a two and out but a turnover after a first down had been gained was not.

 

Here's what I came up with:

 

Week 1

Buck Pierce - 19 possessions, 12 two and outs (63%), 3 turnovers, 2 touchdowns

Average points per possession - 0.94

Average yardage per possession - 16.26 yards (longest 73 yards)

 

Week 2

Buck Pierce - 18 possessions, 8 two and outs (44%), 3 turnovers, 2 touchdowns

Average points per possession - 1

Average yardage per possession - 20.1 yards (longest 105 yards)

 

Justin Goltz - 1 possession, 1 two and out, 1 turnover

Average points per possession - 0

Average yardage per possession - 4 (longest 4 yards)

 

Week 3

Buck Pierce - 15 possessions, 6 two and outs (40%), 3 touchdowns

Average points per possession - 1.2

Average yardage per possession - 22.6 (longest 92 yards)

 

One thing I will point out, although the stats are what they are ... All 6 of the two and outs in this game were in the second half, where we had 8 possessions. That's horrible second half efficiency. In fact, aside from a 92 yard drive while Hamilton was playing prevent, our net offense in the second half of this game was -7 yards.

 

Week 4

Buck Pierce - 8 possessions, 5 two and outs (62%), 1 turnover

Average points per possession - 0.75

Average yardage per possession - 20.62 (longest 65 yards)

 

Justin Goltz - 7 possessions, 2 two and outs (28%), 1 turnover

Average points per possession - 1.28

Average yardage per possession - 29 (longest 64 yards)

 

Week 5

Justin Goltz - 13 possessions, 6 two and outs (46%), 1 turnover, 3 touchdowns

Average points per possession - 1.61

Average yardage per possession - 25.23 (longest 80 yards)

 

Week 6

Justin Goltz - 15 possessions, 5 two and outs (33%), 1 turnover, 2 touchdowns

Average points per possession - 1.2

Average yardage per possession - 17.2 (longest 41 yards)

 

Week 8

Max Hall - 14 possessions, 6 two and outs (42%), 3 turnovers, 1 touchdown

Average points per possession - 0.64

Average yardage per possession - 23.92 (longest 103 yards)

 

Buck Pierce - 1 possession, 1 two and out (100%)

Average points per possession - 0

Average yardage per possession - 9 (longest 9 yards)

 

2013 totals to date

Buck Pierce - 61 possessions, 32 two and outs (52.4%), 7 turnovers (11.4%), 7 touchdowns (11.4%)

Average points per possession - 0.98

Average yardage per possession - 19.58 yards

 

Justin Goltz - 36 possessions, 14 two and outs (38.8%), 4 turnovers, (11.1%), 5 touchdowns (13.8%)

Average points per possession - 1.14

Average yardage per possession - 21.91 yards

 

Max Hall - 14 possessions, 6 two and outs (42%), 3 turnovers (21%), 1 touchdown (7%)

Average points per possession - 0.64

Average yardage per possession - 23.92

Nice how it's either/or with this team's coaches. Throwing Hall to the wolves & expecting a miracle. Not good.

 

Well truth be told it is the Ti-Cats this week so it's more like Hall is being thrown to the kittens.

Well then that solves the mystery.  Screw consistency, we'll just rotate a different QB in each week and Grey Cup here we come.

 

might as well plan the parade right now.  As we've already started Buck and Goltz this year, next week we should go with Porter and the week after that Brink.  Anyone know what Bishop and Michna are doing these days? 

might as well plan the parade right now.  As we've already started Buck and Goltz this year, next week we should go with Porter and the week after that Brink.  Anyone know what Bishop and Michna are doing these days? 

I wouldn't be surprised to see Porter being brought in.............................. has ties to one of our new coaches.

Continue hating Buck all you want he's not going anywhere anytime soon and don't be surprised to see him starting within the next couple of games.

which proves what exactly? All it will prove is that Buck sucks and sucks hard. The fact that he's being outperformed by a guy with 2 career starts is a very telling statement about just how far PIerces game has fallen. Some people though (including some of our coaches) seem to have a hard time letting go of the past and realizing that Pierce might have a good understanding of the offense and the CFL and what defenses are doing he is unable to perform at the required level. 

play with the stats all you want. Goltz was throwing it in the dirt and way behind players all game agsinst BC. We had some piss poor outings with Buck at the helm but I've never seen as many bad passes thrown as when Goltz was under center.

I could grab stats that show Setven Jyles is better than both of them.  Not that this isn't a well presented argument here because it is.

 

Truth, they both suck.  And so does most of what's around them in a chicken and egg sort of way. 

 

These stats underscore to me that Walters or whoever replaces him will eventually overpay for one of Collaras, Mitchell, Tate or Willy.  And I'm ok with that. 

 

So, Goltz "sucks" because....? Have you really seen enough to make that decision? And, more importantly, should our staff feel comfortable that after the playing time he's been given (against the quality of opponents those chances have come against) they're ready to make that call?

 

I'm not necessarily a pro-Goltz guy. I don't mind him behind Hall on the depth chart. What I am passionately against is this team continuing to go to the well with Buck at the helm despite overwhelming data that he, at very best, is marginally better than a couple guys who are still green in this league. And that is being kind, given that I neglect to mention Buck can't stay healthy.

Being the starting QB for a team, mainly because you are paid more than the other QB's, isn't a legitimate reason to be the starter.

 

That seems to be a bit of an arguement.  Mack signed Buck for X, but because the two backups make less, then it would be ridiculous for Buck to be on the bench, because he gets paid more.

 

Let Hall start some, let Buck start some, Let Goltz start some.  Does it really matter at this point?  We will probably end up with 3 new QBs in camp next year anyways.  Oh wait, we don't want that?  We want consistency?  Then we ***** and moan about how a QB struggles, and how they should still be starting once we have decided to try someone else.  

play with the stats all you want. Goltz was throwing it in the dirt and way behind players all game agsinst BC. We had some piss poor outings with Buck at the helm but I've never seen as many bad passes thrown as when Goltz was under center.

 

I find this difficult to grasp.

 

I've seen Goltz throw some terrible balls but Pierce's performance in week 2 is burnt in my memory as being just as poor as any game Goltz has had.

play with the stats all you want. Goltz was throwing it in the dirt and way behind players all game agsinst BC. We had some piss poor outings with Buck at the helm but I've never seen as many bad passes thrown as when Goltz was under center.

and he also had some egregious drops in there that were well thrown. See I can just as easily turn around and say that I've never seen as many bad passes as when Pierce was under centre. Or are you forgetting just how bad he was in his games? Your attitude really sounds to me like you're too focussed on the last game and not the big picture. Let's keep in mind here the completion percentage for the two of them is 60.4% vs. 57.7% it's not some huge difference here. 

Bombers should bank on Buck Pierce or it'll be Crowton's last stand
 

By Paul Friesen ,Winnipeg Sun 

It came at the end of a conversation with Buck Pierce, one simple line uttered by the former starting quarterback of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers.

 

“I know for a fact I’m going to be playing again,” Pierce said.

I didn’t ask how he knew or why he felt that way.

Because I felt the exact same way.

You think Justin Goltz’s stint at the controls was brief?

Max Hall’s might be even shorter.

From what I’ve seen, Hall doesn’t look anywhere near ready for this, and I don’t care if he’s started a few games in the NFL.

If he looks confused, inaccurate and unsure of himself in practice, what’s he going to look like at full speed on Friday, even against Hamilton?

Pierce should never have been dropped all the way to No. 3, and he shouldn’t be the back-up, now. Not for this game, a must-win for this downtrodden bunch if ever there was one.

Can anybody honestly look at the three Winnipeg quarterbacks and say Hall gives this team the best chance to win?

Head coach Tim Burke tells us that’s the conclusion of offensive co-ordinator Gary Crowton and the assistants. Unanimously.

I’m not even sure I buy that.

I’m guessing this is the under-siege co-ordinator’s call, alone. Crowton’s Last Stand, if you will.

I’m not the only one still guessing.

“Just like the media, no one knows who’s making the calls on the quarterback,” running back Chad Simpson told me, Wednesday. “So I don’t know. I definitely don’t know.”

Simpson wasn’t grumbling about it, the way Goltz was the other day. Or even bewildered, the way Pierce was.

In fact, he was chuckling. Not that he thinks any of this is very funny.

I don’t know a player who wants to win more than No. 5 does.

And having three different starting quarterbacks in the first seven games of a season is not conducive to winning.

“I’ve never seen this in my life — I’ve been playing this since I was seven years old — where it’s three quarterbacks,” Simpson said. “So it’s an experience. It takes some getting used to. But once you practise with the guys about three days, you pretty much know how your quarterback is.

“And, again, it’s when the lights turn on. Whenever the lights turn on, he has to perform. You hope he performs.”

That’s all the Bombers have with Hall at the helm. No hard evidence. No history to draw from.

Just hope.

Asked how he thinks Hall will do, Simpson was momentarily at a loss for words.

“Um, again... ,” he began. “I’m going to be honest with you. I feel all our quarterbacks were going to do good. So I don’t know.”

Another minute, and Simpson found a sliver of hope.

“You know, I was just thinking he has NFL experience. So that’s kind of comforting. He’s started a couple of games. Now that I’m thinking about that, I think he’ll do well.”

Burke obviously prefers Pierce.

We know this because it was former GM Joe Mack who pushed for Goltz. And Burke has already acknowledged Hall wasn’t his choice this week.

Remember, he said he didn’t want to “handcuff” Crowton and Co., and in case you missed it, he said it again, Wednesday.

“For me to dictate who they play at quarterback, that would be tying their hands,” Burke said. “And I’m not going to do that.”

So Burke’s in Pierce’s corner, and he should be.

He’s the veteran. He gets paid the most. Play the guy until you can’t play him any longer.

Eventually, because his own job will depend on it, Burke will exercise the hammer every head coach has.

Maybe even before Friday night’s game is over.

 

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/08/14/bombers-should-bank-on-buck-pierce-or-itll-be-crowtons-last-stand

Saw this piece today and while rolling my eyes hard, also laughed at the thought of Mike's reaction...

Buck pierce misses just as many terrible throws as Goltz, but at least Goltz can move the ball occasionally. Pierce is the king of two and outs of the entire CFL.

Goltz is also only 25 and is going to get a lot better. Big mistake taking Goltz out.

Although I would prefer we just bite the bullet and make a trade for one of the 3 up and comers

Buck pierce misses just as many terrible throws as Goltz, but at least Goltz can move the ball occasionally. Pierce is the king of two and outs of the entire CFL.

Goltz is also only 25 and is going to get a lot better. Big mistake taking Goltz out.

Although I would prefer we just bite the bullet and make a trade for one of the 3 up and comers

 

How do you know he's going to get better?  People around here seem to think that all you need to make a good QB is a warm body and a couple years of development time.  Well sometimes guys just don't get any better no matter how much time you give them.

play with the stats all you want. Goltz was throwing it in the dirt and way behind players all game agsinst BC. We had some piss poor outings with Buck at the helm but I've never seen as many bad passes thrown as when Goltz was under center.

 

Listen, I was seriously beginning to wonder, whenever I read the post-game stats, whether Buck had changed his name or not.

I kept seeing Buck Pierce incomplete pass, Buck Pierce incomplete pass, Buck Pierce incomplete pass....

This team won't get better until they move on from this outdated notion that Pierce gives them any kind of chance to win. He very nearly cost them the only win they had if not for the defense creating a turnover for themselves. 

I find this difficult to grasp.

 

I've seen Goltz throw some terrible balls but Pierce's performance in week 2 is burnt in my memory as being just as poor as any game Goltz has had.

When did Pierce throw for 112 yards ?

 

 

which proves what exactly? All it will prove is that Buck sucks and sucks hard. The fact that he's being outperformed by a guy with 2 career starts is a very telling statement about just how far PIerces game has fallen. Some people though (including some of our coaches) seem to have a hard time letting go of the past and realizing that Pierce might have a good understanding of the offense and the CFL and what defenses are doing he is unable to perform at the required level. 

Continue to flame on, I still support Pierce, clearly I'm in the minority.

Hey Mike, send the reporters your stats.

“I know for a fact I’m going to be playing again,” Pierce said.

 

http://www.winnipegsun.com/2013/08/14/bombers-should-bank-on-buck-pierce-or-itll-be-crowtons-last-stand

Me thinks this is why Pierce had a smirk on his face the other day during the media scrum. when Hall was named the starter.

I find this difficult to grasp.

I've seen Goltz throw some terrible balls but Pierce's performance in week 2 is burnt in my memory as being just as poor as any game Goltz has had.

maybe it's a recency bias but I remember all game in BC people swearing at the TV about receivers missing the ball and the replay showing it thrown way behind them on a crosser or it going into to the dirt when someone was open in the flat. I don't remember to many drops that game. more like a bunch of uncatchable balls.

maybe it's a recency bias but I remember all game in BC people swearing at the TV about receivers missing the ball and the replay showing it thrown way behind them on a crosser or it going into to the dirt when someone was open in the flat. I don't remember to many drops that game. more like a bunch of uncatchable balls.

 

There were flat out drops that killed us in that game .. coming out of the shadow of our own goal posts .. also in the BC red zone .. receivers (Matthews) squeezes a couple of balls and the game could have been much different.  The simple fact is Goltz is a young quarterback.  He *IS* going to improve with playing time.  Pierce, on the other hand, is not only starting to break down (physically) but mentally as well.  He is holding onto the ball way too long.  He's taking unnecessary sacks.  He's inaccurate . injury prone and killing this team because he can't finish games.

Friesen says this: 

 

From what I’ve seen, Hall doesn’t look anywhere near ready for this, and I don’t care if he’s started a few games in the NFL.

If he looks confused, inaccurate and unsure of himself in practice, what’s he going to look like at full speed on Friday, even against Hamilton?

 

Bob Irving says this:

 

Bob Irving ‏@BobIrvingCJOB14 Aug

Max hall had a particularly sharp passing segment in practice--can he follow up in the game, that's the 64-dollar question

 

So who is right?

Pierce, on the other hand, is not only starting to break down (physically)

but mentally as well. 

He is holding onto the ball way too long. 

He's taking unnecessary sacks. 

He's inaccurate .

injury prone

and killing this team because he can't finish games.

 

Yes but, other than that....

Friesen says this: 

 

From what I’ve seen, Hall doesn’t look anywhere near ready for this, and I don’t care if he’s started a few games in the NFL.

If he looks confused, inaccurate and unsure of himself in practice, what’s he going to look like at full speed on Friday, even against Hamilton?

 

Bob Irving says this:

 

Bob Irving ‏@BobIrvingCJOB14 Aug

Max hall had a particularly sharp passing segment in practice--can he follow up in the game, that's the 64-dollar question

 

So who is right?

 

My money is on the guy following the Bombers the last 40 years .. you know .. the one with a clue. ;-)

 

I still expect Hall to struggle at times through the game .. it's just the nature of the beast .. but these guys HAVE to be allowed to play through it.

My money is on the guy following the Bombers the last 40 years .. you know .. the one with a clue. ;-)

 

I still expect Hall to struggle at times through the game .. it's just the nature of the beast .. but these guys HAVE to be allowed to play through it.

That is why they need to name him the #1 for the rest of the season, or next week.  Which ever comes first.

maybe it's a recency bias but I remember all game in BC people swearing at the TV about receivers missing the ball and the replay showing it thrown way behind them on a crosser or it going into to the dirt when someone was open in the flat. I don't remember to many drops that game. more like a bunch of uncatchable balls.

oh there were definitely flat out drops, including at least 2 on second downs that would have extended drives in late stages of the games. There were some missed throws for sure, but the receivers put some on the turf that were very catchable. Both games Goltz started in fact I felt that the receivers didn't do enough to help a young qb. That doesn't mean they were dropping routine catches, but they never really made any of the highlight type catches that you see every week in the CFL either.