Dascow Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I am worried about this strategy, to be honest. The problem with sending all rookies to play against their vets is that all the TiCats will have to do is find one weakness to exploit. If there is just one guy in the secondary that is not CFL ready, he will get torched and the defence will suffer for it. With the secondary being all first year players, that weakness may not be hard to find. (And there may be more than one.) It will be very difficult to evaluate individuals, if it's 1 or 2 players constantly getting beat. That goes the same for the offence. If there is one o-lineman who can't stand up to the pressure, the whole offence and it's game plan will be out the window. How do you properly evaluate if the o-line is constantly breaking down and giving the QB no time to do anything? The Bombers are staking the deck against Goltz. He will be playing with back-ups, 3rd stringers and future cuts, at WR and O-line, against Hamilton's #1s. That is my fear. My worst case scenario. As far as leaving Buck at home though, I completely agree. It's time to evaluate the new guys. Sure, Buck will be rusty for the first game, but playing him in this pre-season game is a short term solution to a long term problem. We need to get Goltz as much playing time as possible, because we know he will be called upon sooner or later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Dee Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I agree. Never before have I seen "all in" in an exhibition football game. It's both scary and intriguing. Burke's decision making has been questioned in the past. Is this another example? But it's not like we haven't seen 52-0 before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I am worried about this strategy, to be honest. The problem with sending all rookies to play against their vets is that all the TiCats will have to do is find one weakness to exploit. If there is just one guy in the secondary that is not CFL ready, he will get torched and the defence will suffer for it. With the secondary being all first year players, that weakness may not be hard to find. (And there may be more than one.) It will be very difficult to evaluate individuals, if it's 1 or 2 players constantly getting beat. That goes the same for the offence. If there is one o-lineman who can't stand up to the pressure, the whole offence and it's game plan will be out the window. How do you properly evaluate if the o-line is constantly breaking down and giving the QB no time to do anything? The Bombers are staking the deck against Goltz. He will be playing with back-ups, 3rd stringers and future cuts, at WR and O-line, against Hamilton's #1s. That is my fear. My worst case scenario. I don't really agree with that... If there's a few guys getting torched over and over and over again it actually makes the coaches job easier in evaluating.... shows that those guys have no right being on the team so cut em. You can see who is making the right decisions and doing the right things on film even if the score is out of hand as well so it's not like there's no way to evaluate things. I really do think that this is a very good way for the coaches to see which of the rookies/backups/borderline guys will rise to the challenge or sink with the added responsibility, the trouble is that I think you also need to use the 2nd preseason game as a way to get the first teamers some reps so that they're ready to start the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy Pop Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Pencer has a real shot at being our 6th OL, and Burke has long stated that he has potential to start at T for years to come. This year, ahead of January? No way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dascow Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I don't really agree with that... If there's a few guys getting torched over and over and over again it actually makes the coaches job easier in evaluating.... shows that those guys have no right being on the team so cut em. You can see who is making the right decisions and doing the right things on film even if the score is out of hand as well so it's not like there's no way to evaluate things. I really do think that this is a very good way for the coaches to see which of the rookies/backups/borderline guys will rise to the challenge or sink with the added responsibility, the trouble is that I think you also need to use the 2nd preseason game as a way to get the first teamers some reps so that they're ready to start the season. I agree with your second point. The first team guys have barely played and it could be especially noticeable on offence, where timing is key. As far as evaluating is concerned, sometimes a good player can get sucked into trying to do too much. If certain players on the defence are getting torched, one or more players might start to feel like they need to do more than their own job to compensate. That's just human nature and it's a trap that even veteran players fall into. It's almost like a house of cards. You take one card out and the whole thing collapses. And that's just on defence. On offence, having a player that may never see a CFL field again playing at WR, (Along with some 2nd and 3rd stringers.), and o-linemen that are 2nd and 3rd stringers, really hamstrings your QB. It's difficult to evaluate a QB if they only have 1 or 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. (And how do you evaluate a WR if the QBs never have enough time to get them the ball?) Giving Goltz 2nd and 3rd string WRs behind 2nd and 3rd string offencive linemen while playing against the TiCats first team defence just feels like they are putting him in an untenable situation. If he is successful in that situation, then que the QB controversy, because he would deserve to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 On offence, having a player that may never see a CFL field again playing at WR, (Along with some 2nd and 3rd stringers.), and o-linemen that are 2nd and 3rd stringers, really hamstrings your QB. It's difficult to evaluate a QB if they only have 1 or 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. (And how do you evaluate a WR if the QBs never have enough time to get them the ball?) Giving Goltz 2nd and 3rd string WRs behind 2nd and 3rd string offencive linemen while playing against the TiCats first team defence just feels like they are putting him in an untenable situation. If he is successful in that situation, then que the QB controversy, because he would deserve to start. This is where I disagree a bit. Receivers you can see on film who is going where they're supposed to even if they never see the ball, you can see who is getting open on film even if they never see the ball... You have all kinds of practise time to see who has hands and who doesn't so they don't need to actually get the ball to make a decision on if they're good enough or not, that's a trap that fans fall into, thinking that coaches need a stat sheet to see who is good and who isn't. If a qb is on his ass the whole time it does make it difficult to move the ball, but you also see how his decision making process is and whether he can throw under pressure or how elusive they might be. Again it's not a cut and dried situation where they need to go 65% completions and have 400 yards passing for the coaches to know if they're good enough. They will have a lot of practise time to know who can be an accurate passer or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Pencer has a real shot at being our 6th OL, and Burke has long stated that he has potential to start at T for years to come. This year, ahead of January? No way... what about Swiston? Isn't he the 6th? If not, then what happens to Morley? Cut outright? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dascow Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 This is where I disagree a bit. Receivers you can see on film who is going where they're supposed to even if they never see the ball, you can see who is getting open on film even if they never see the ball... You have all kinds of practise time to see who has hands and who doesn't so they don't need to actually get the ball to make a decision on if they're good enough or not, that's a trap that fans fall into, thinking that coaches need a stat sheet to see who is good and who isn't. If a qb is on his ass the whole time it does make it difficult to move the ball, but you also see how his decision making process is and whether he can throw under pressure or how elusive they might be. Again it's not a cut and dried situation where they need to go 65% completions and have 400 yards passing for the coaches to know if they're good enough. They will have a lot of practise time to know who can be an accurate passer or not. That's very true. A lot of evaluation can be done by watching how they practice. That reminds me of a story that Jeff Garcia told about his first training camp with the Stamps. Apparently he is not the greatest "practice" QB and because of that he almost got cut. They didn't cut him though, and he ended up getting into one of the pre-season games where he played really well...and the rest is history. One good thing for Goltz and the rest of the QBs is that the TiCat secondary isn't exactly the CFL's elite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 This is where I disagree a bit. Receivers you can see on film who is going where they're supposed to even if they never see the ball, you can see who is getting open on film even if they never see the ball... You have all kinds of practise time to see who has hands and who doesn't so they don't need to actually get the ball to make a decision on if they're good enough or not, that's a trap that fans fall into, thinking that coaches need a stat sheet to see who is good and who isn't. If a qb is on his ass the whole time it does make it difficult to move the ball, but you also see how his decision making process is and whether he can throw under pressure or how elusive they might be. Again it's not a cut and dried situation where they need to go 65% completions and have 400 yards passing for the coaches to know if they're good enough. They will have a lot of practise time to know who can be an accurate passer or not. Incredibly true but at the same thing, if your OL is failing you entirely then they're likely not providing enough time for any of that to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweep the leg Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 what about Swiston? Isn't he the 6th? If not, then what happens to Morley? Cut outright? I'm guessing whomever doesn't start between Morley & Swiston will stay on the 46 at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Incredibly true but at the same thing, if your OL is failing you entirely then they're likely not providing enough time for any of that to develop. Yeah but I also get the impression that at this point they really know what the team is going to look like anyway they just want to see a couple specific guys and how they do. I'd expect all the qbs to be kept around because unfortunately I think we'll need all 4 of them again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dascow Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 They will definitely need all 4. That is why I am glad they left Buck at home. It may leave him a little rusty for the first game, but the others need as much time as humanly possible because you know that, at least Goltz, (Or whoever they make #2), will be seeing the field at some point this season. People make too much of the pre-season, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair GM Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I agree with your second point. The first team guys have barely played and it could be especially noticeable on offence, where timing is key. As far as evaluating is concerned, sometimes a good player can get sucked into trying to do too much. If certain players on the defence are getting torched, one or more players might start to feel like they need to do more than their own job to compensate. That's just human nature and it's a trap that even veteran players fall into. It's almost like a house of cards. You take one card out and the whole thing collapses. And that's just on defence. On offence, having a player that may never see a CFL field again playing at WR, (Along with some 2nd and 3rd stringers.), and o-linemen that are 2nd and 3rd stringers, really hamstrings your QB. It's difficult to evaluate a QB if they only have 1 or 2 seconds to get rid of the ball. (And how do you evaluate a WR if the QBs never have enough time to get them the ball?) Giving Goltz 2nd and 3rd string WRs behind 2nd and 3rd string offencive linemen while playing against the TiCats first team defence just feels like they are putting him in an untenable situation. If he is successful in that situation, then que the QB controversy, because he would deserve to start. To be fair, it is HAMILTON's first team defence... that's like most teams' 2nd team D. The real interesting question mark for me is Morley and Swiston both not playing in Hamilton, but Sorenson is. Suggests to me that either one of Morley and Swiston is injured, or both have made the team. If that's the case... is it possible that Morley has won the starting C job, and and Swiston has won the RG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuranBoldenRules Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 There a couple issues when the starters aren't given time in the pre-season. Their timing is going to be off. The first regular season game will basically be their pre-season game. The other issue is that we can't make adjustments. We won't be trying even the blandest vanilla of the new Crowton plan with the guys who will be executing it in game 1, so we don't know which ideas are working, which need to be scrapped or adjusted. All this stuff will happen when the games count. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 To be fair, it is HAMILTON's first team defence... that's like most teams' 2nd team D. The real interesting question mark for me is Morley and Swiston both not playing in Hamilton, but Sorenson is. Suggests to me that either one of Morley and Swiston is injured, or both have made the team. If that's the case... is it possible that Morley has won the starting C job, and and Swiston has won the RG? Morley isn't playing center dude. Sorenson has it locked up. Swiston is banged up so isn't making the trip, I believe I read that somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred C Dobbs Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 I agree. Never before have I seen "all in" in an exhibition football game. It's both scary and intriguing. Burke's decision making has been questioned in the past. Is this another example? But it's not like we haven't seen 52-0 before... Actually, there is a precedent for this. Not sure of the exact year, but once upon a time way back when, Bud Grant took the Bombers to Montreal and played all his rookies and back-ups for the whole game. IIRC, the final score was Montreal 53, Winnipeg 0. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that happen again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raydawg Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Darrin Bauming @DarrinBauming 8m Updated #Bombers depth chart for Thursday's game vs the #Ticats in Guelph. #CFL pic.twitter.com/s0YOu94S2D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 so we have no halfback. We're just going to go with 11 on defence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Actually, there is a precedent for this. Not sure of the exact year, but once upon a time way back when, Bud Grant took the Bombers to Montreal and played all his rookies and back-ups for the whole game. IIRC, the final score was Montreal 53, Winnipeg 0. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see that happen again. It was in 1962. We won the Cup that year, then didn't win it again until 1984. Man that was a long drought. Not sure how the fans put up with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valderan_CA Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Swiston is/was hurt - I can't remember where I saw it but I am quite sure that is why he isn't coming to this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valderan_CA Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 so we have no halfback. We're just going to go with 11 on defence? Sherman get's to try out being halfback :Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Posted June 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Sherman get's to try out being halfback :Z Actually??? Oh boy. I figured they would throw Dekota Marshall in that spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 ouch. There's 3 or 4 TD's for bad Hank right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atomic Posted June 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 Swiston is/was hurt - I can't remember where I saw it but I am quite sure that is why he isn't coming to this game Ken Wiebe @WiebeSunSports 17 Jun At #Bombers workout OL Paul Swiston twisted his left knee on a running play. Will get an update later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelownabomberfan Posted June 19, 2013 Report Share Posted June 19, 2013 man quite the collection of walking wounded already. I just hope we have a starting RT and a starting RB on June 27th. That would put us ahead of last year's opening game where we had to start the human turnstyle Taormina and the "don't ask me to run a screen" Bloi Dei Dorzon. Man last year was just such a cluster-freak. Unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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