17to85

you go ahead and do that but you'd be wrong. People have been on the offensive line the whole time he's been here except for that brief time at the end of last year when the offense actually did show some progress. Let's not forget that no matter what the yardage numbers showed in 2010 the offense was still highly inconsistent and still went 2 and out a ton, they were just really good at making big plays and getting big chunks of yardage in one off situations. Not sure why people are so adamant that they gotta crap all over Joey Elliott when it is abundantly clear now that he never should have been cut in the first place because he actually did some good things for this team, things that no other qb has managed since.

LOL! Please tell me you didn't type this with a straight face, Mr. Kettle.... I did indeed because I am a very open minded person.

If you want to stop then stop but if you keep hammering away at it I'll keep going because I have nothing better to do.

Hey I like Kohlert as much as the next guy, but Etienne seems like he's got a good pair of mitts too. I'm just a fan of receivers who catch the ball when it comes to them and both of those guys seem to do it.

Etienne hasn't exactly done anything in three seasons to dispute his original opinion of him. And this is coming from a guy who was a big fan of the choice and is still a fan of the player. He also hasn't had a lot of opportunities to do anything given the problems surrounding the team. I mean a player who was picked and the management came right out and said he's a project shouldn't be judged by his first couple years, and it did appear that there were some glimpses of a good player in there at times this year. He certainly has shown glimpses, but I think even less has been expected of Kohlert and he's come through. I still think given the right opportunities than JE can be a fantastic player, but, whether it's his fault or not, this is still a results-oriented business. He hasn't been given a legitimate shot to succeed. His past skillset suggests he just needs room to grow and the right support system around him. He has shown glimpses of not just competence, but excellence. Unfortunately, the results just haven't went his way. This reasoning could be used to defend Jade Etienne. It could also be used to defend Tim Burke. Kohlert hasn't done a lot either though, none of the receivers on this team have. The big difference between Kohlert and Etienne is that Kohlert got into more games and had more passes thrown to him. I like him but just how good is he? A few catches here or there don't prove a hell of a lot and that's something that can be said for every receiver on the team.

Etienne hasn't exactly done anything in three seasons to dispute his original opinion of him. And this is coming from a guy who was a big fan of the choice and is still a fan of the player. He also hasn't had a lot of opportunities to do anything given the problems surrounding the team. I mean a player who was picked and the management came right out and said he's a project shouldn't be judged by his first couple years, and it did appear that there were some glimpses of a good player in there at times this year.

your problem is that you make up your mind about things very quickly and without giving things a chance and stubbornly stick to that no matter what. I at least gave Burke a chance before turning on him. For you Etienne was useless the minute he was drafted.

Either that or the guys we've drafted/signed as OLinemen have all been REALLY bad Well what's easier to believe, that every single player brought in is so devoid of talent that they can't possibly get any better or that the coaching is just unable to help players grow and develop?

For the record, I don't think there are any personal attacks going on here, just attacks on peoples opinions.

The fact that you'd try and make that claim again really goes to show that you haven't actually been reading what I've written. I have never gotten on a soapbox and told anyone how great Mack was, I have argued with people shitting all over everything guy did, there is a very big difference. With regards to you and Etienne you were all over the guy before he even came to training camp, you were all over the guy because he was on the roster but never playing, that's not something to ***** at Etienne for, you have a lot of misguided anger, you should have been critical of the people putting him on the roster when he wasn't ready to be there but no you took every chance to slag the kid. Yeah, so? Players get called out & criticized everyday. You slag Burke everyday. You've slagged Poblah & Buck. You're no better than me or anybody else here who has an opinion so get over it. I slag Burke cause he's done something no one else has done, he's made me stop caring about this team. Slagging Poblah (well all i've said is he's not living up to the hype and seems to have iffy hands) and Buck was done after they had been given chance after chance and failed. I didn't criticize anyone immediately after being drafted just cause they were off the board. oh and by the way, I *AM* better than everyone else here.

The fact that you'd try and make that claim again really goes to show that you haven't actually been reading what I've written. I have never gotten on a soapbox and told anyone how great Mack was, I have argued with people shitting all over everything guy did, there is a very big difference. With regards to you and Etienne you were all over the guy before he even came to training camp, you were all over the guy because he was on the roster but never playing, that's not something to ***** at Etienne for, you have a lot of misguided anger, you should have been critical of the people putting him on the roster when he wasn't ready to be there but no you took every chance to slag the kid.

The situation with this team right now is such that the absolute best thing to do is to do a total housecleaning. New GM, new coaches and let those people decide what the quality of the roster looks like. I have no faith in the current coaches to make a proper determination because they have failed so hard in doing that.

I'm pretty sure he's never said that, it's only people like you who imply that simply because he defends Mack from the UNFAIR criticism he takes. Dave has never suggested Mack doesn't deserve criticism. He's simply suggested that he doesn't always deserve all of it. I've never even said that he didn't deserve to get fired either, all I've ever done was try and provide a balance to the piling on that goes on. Some people like Iso spend all their time harping on Mack doing absolutely everything wrong and it's his fault for every single thing that no one else could possibly take any blame and that's just wrong and I won't stand for it.

The only time the o-line has looked good was towards the end of last season which it appears more and more was a product of Joey Elliott being able to move around in the pocket to avoid pressure and get a pass away in a timely fashion. Right now I want the entire coaching staff cleaned out top to bottom with the exception of Craig Dickenson. Special teams is the only part of the team that has shown any improvement this year.

but isn't this what has been said for the past several years? I have to hope that a new GM means it will be a reality this time. If not, this team will continue on the path it is now, which is not a good one for the long term stability of the franchise. Or the other side of that argument is that there has been competition for spots on this team, the coaches we have though just can't maximize the returns on that talent. The list of players who have really progressed on this team is really really short, but the list of guys who have seen their play regress is quite lengthy.

but isn't this what has been said for the past several years?

I'd be more afraid of a GM knowing he's got to win now or be fired doing long term damage than a guy angling to remove the temporary label. Guy in Walters position is more likely to play it safe than take big risks until he is confirmed as being the one in charge. A guy knowing he might be fired though might try and kind of desperation move to save his hide.

What good is naming an interm GM if he can't do anything? Gotta let him act as if he's the GM. Not like he's in a position where he's going to absolutely gut the teams future, no interm guy is going to do that.

I was trying to think to myself earlier about who was actually playing as well as expected or better and I realized that most of the names were people new to the team. Kelly, Ian Wild, I completely agree with you that players come here and get worse the more they are exposed to the coaching. One of the things that Lapo did manage to do well was get players to improve, at least it seems to me that he did at least a little bit. This coaching staff needs a complete over haul or it won't matter which players they bring in.

but that's what the coaches want though. They wanted the highly athletic fast interior guys. If they had wanted the big immovable DT then you can be sure that they'd be looking for one. The defensive line works well within the system they're put together so I don't think we can say that they're failing to address an issue there.

The people at the top though are the ones that should be saying that because that's basically their job. The coach though, his job is to get the most out of what he is given to work with and Burke has not come close to doing that. Which players are having a career year on this team? Which players are meeting or exceeding expectations?

can't get much clearer than that

well clearly the smart thing to do is not say anything. Oh please, then we'd find something else to attack him on. Perhaps his lack of confidence in answering a question. Or why he would clearly ignore a question directly posed to him from the media. Burke does plenty of stupid things and deserves criticism for all of them. This is not one of them. This is Troy Westwood-level criticism right here. It's not hard to say things like "all I can do is worry about winning game this year and whatever they decide to do they decide to do" says nothing and still answers the question. Seriously this isn't complicated. "Look, Coach Burke doesn't even care about what happens next season cause he's already checked out! Fire him now already! Him being on the team when he clearly doesn't care about what happens going forward is only going to hurt our team long-term." You're right, slamming him regardless of what he says isn't that complicated. The fact that he didn't answer the question in the exact way you wanted him to framed perfectly to fit your expectations doesn't mean he handled it wrong. instead he threw the fired GM totally under the bus, he threw his players under the bus and he quite frankly insulted the intelligence of everyone who follows this team by contradicting what he said before the season started. Yeah that's much better. Burke at this point is simply saying anything and everything to make excuses for himself and it is absolutely disgusting.

well clearly the smart thing to do is not say anything. Oh please, then we'd find something else to attack him on. Perhaps his lack of confidence in answering a question. Or why he would clearly ignore a question directly posed to him from the media. Burke does plenty of stupid things and deserves criticism for all of them. This is not one of them. This is Troy Westwood-level criticism right here. It's not hard to say things like "all I can do is worry about winning game this year and whatever they decide to do they decide to do" says nothing and still answers the question. Seriously this isn't complicated.

yeah I'm calling bullshit on that one. You want him to flame out so you can crow about how you knew all along he was a bust.