braddman19 Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Instead of mainly concentrating on filling the # of starters, we should have been working harder to improve the depth of our backups. Its a sad day when a quality NI starter gets hurt, and we have non-tested NI players to fill in. We need to do a better job of getting backups into the games, getting them experience, and properly coaching them so they will improve so that they could eventually work their way up the depth-chart, and take over when we do eventually need them to. I'm not sure I agree with this... over the last 3-4 years we've had our backup NI's playing on offence and defence more than I ever remember any other regime doing. Guys like Swiston, Labbe, Thomas, West, Sherman, Ryan Lucas, and any of our 4 or 5 NI receivers have all seen playing time on offence/defence. Compare that to when we had guys like Daryl Stephenson, Neil McKinlay, Shawn Mayne... now those are guys who never saw the field outside of special teams. What I do agree with though, is that the problem is that none of these guys ever really successfully climbed the depth chart, even though they've had the opportunity. I'm not trying to say its an issue that has cropped up in the past 3-4 years, its been an ongoing thing. Yes the fill'ins are getting better, but I would never want to have to rely on someone like Labbe long term (just picking one out of the group), if Henoc leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 When you compare what he did to other teams Macks drafting doesn't look that poor at all, stacks up pretty comparably. Trouble is people always focus on the guys taken later who worked out and said "SEE! HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS GUY!!111!!" You can do that for every team though, but no one here does it. Mack had his issues but I don't think drafting was really one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Instead of mainly concentrating on filling the # of starters, we should have been working harder to improve the depth of our backups. Its a sad day when a quality NI starter gets hurt, and we have non-tested NI players to fill in. We need to do a better job of getting backups into the games, getting them experience, and properly coaching them so they will improve so that they could eventually work their way up the depth-chart, and take over when we do eventually need them to. I'm not sure I agree with this... over the last 3-4 years we've had our backup NI's playing on offence and defence more than I ever remember any other regime doing. Guys like Swiston, Labbe, Thomas, West, Sherman, Ryan Lucas, and any of our 4 or 5 NI receivers have all seen playing time on offence/defence. Compare that to when we had guys like Daryl Stephenson, Neil McKinlay, Shawn Mayne... now those are guys who never saw the field outside of special teams. What I do agree with though, is that the problem is that none of these guys ever really successfully climbed the depth chart, even though they've had the opportunity. I'm not trying to say its an issue that has cropped up in the past 3-4 years, its been an ongoing thing. Yes the fill'ins are getting better, but I would never want to have to rely on someone like Labbe long term (just picking one out of the group), if Henoc leaves. The fills ins are better means you have better depth, the problem is that right now we don't have a Doug Brown or Brendan Labatte being tops at their positions regardless of NI status. Muamba might be there, but then again he might decide to leave too. Brown and Labatte masked a lot of issues for past regimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacquie Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotoriousBIG Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 When you compare what he did to other teams Macks drafting doesn't look that poor at all, stacks up pretty comparably. Trouble is people always focus on the guys taken later who worked out and said "SEE! HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS GUY!!111!!" You can do that for every team though, but no one here does it. Mack had his issues but I don't think drafting was really one of them. i'm inclined to agree. I certainly don't "hate" Mack for his approach to the draft, though the parting shots from Miller & Walters suggest otherwise. Still, I just don't see CIS drafting as our team's (and Mack's) Achilles heel....More like an atrocious approach to Free Agency (brought to you by Nyquil) and zero success at fixing the QB. Oh, and cost cutting guys that never really made sense (Kent). And of course, firing coaches at the absolute worst time and then letting the team disintegrate under Burke after that. Other than that, Mack was great. ;-) iso_55 and braddman19 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I won't delve into the whole Mack thing, but here is my opinion on the Cdn Depth issue. As an organization, for too long IMHO, we haven't placed enough of an emphasis on our Canadian talent. It doesn't matter which regime it was, but we have been settling too much on only having enough passable guys to fill the starting ratio. As a team, we should have been striving to go after quality NI FA's, and drafting at positions where we could build significant depth. (I'm sorry, but the splurge we did at WR last year drives me crazy, we are only ever going to play 2 CDN rec at a time, as opposed to possibly 4 OL). O-Line and D-Line should have been priorities over WR/RB etc. Instead of mainly concentrating on filling the # of starters, we should have been working harder to improve the depth of our backups. Its a sad day when a quality NI starter gets hurt, and we have non-tested NI players to fill in. We need to do a better job of getting backups into the games, getting them experience, and properly coaching them so they will improve so that they could eventually work their way up the depth-chart, and take over when we do eventually need them to. And now we have a GM who is fully cognizant of the fact that we need to upgrade our NI talent and has excellent connections in that regard...but...some folks on here don't seem to realize the benefit of that. And that's what I had said. That we finally have a GM who understands the CIS & should be able to draft well. blitzmore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 When you compare what he did to other teams Macks drafting doesn't look that poor at all, stacks up pretty comparably. Trouble is people always focus on the guys taken later who worked out and said "SEE! HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS GUY!!111!!" You can do that for every team though, but no one here does it. Mack had his issues but I don't think drafting was really one of them. i'm inclined to agree. I certainly don't "hate" Mack for his approach to the draft, though the parting shots from Miller & Walters suggest otherwise. Still, I just don't see CIS drafting as our team's (and Mack's) Achilles heel....More like an atrocious approach to Free Agency (brought to you by Nyquil) and zero success at fixing the QB. Oh, and cost cutting guys that never really made sense (Kent). And of course, firing coaches at the absolute worst time and then letting the team disintegrate under Burke after that. Other than that, Mack was great. ;-) You don't mention the single biggest issue.... he was terrible at picking a head coach. You don't get the right guy coaching your team it doesn't matter what kind of talent you have it's not going to look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 When you compare what he did to other teams Macks drafting doesn't look that poor at all, stacks up pretty comparably. Trouble is people always focus on the guys taken later who worked out and said "SEE! HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS GUY!!111!!" You can do that for every team though, but no one here does it. Mack had his issues but I don't think drafting was really one of them. i'm inclined to agree. I certainly don't "hate" Mack for his approach to the draft, though the parting shots from Miller & Walters suggest otherwise. Still, I just don't see CIS drafting as our team's (and Mack's) Achilles heel....More like an atrocious approach to Free Agency (brought to you by Nyquil) and zero success at fixing the QB. Oh, and cost cutting guys that never really made sense (Kent). And of course, firing coaches at the absolute worst time and then letting the team disintegrate under Burke after that. Other than that, Mack was great. ;-) You don't mention the single biggest issue.... he was terrible at picking a head coach. You don't get the right guy coaching your team it doesn't matter what kind of talent you have it's not going to look good. Like BriceDream said, sitting on his hands during free agency. That was the worst mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Except ISO only said that Mack sucked at CIS drafting... Which is true. Then everyone else morphed the debate into 'poor mack' zone Except that the "Mack sucks at drafting" is only true if you ignore the fact he nailed a grand slam home run with Henoc, who was, contrary to popular belief, NOT the consensus #1 pick. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Taman drafted only one franchise-altering player in his tenure as well. The difference is that the talent level in CFL draft is so much better now than it was in the mid-1990s. That being said, pretty sure Taman drafted Picard and Labatte. Arjei Franklin was pretty good... Henoc was a homerun for sure... but Taman and Dyce found Butler who is as good or better than Henoc 11picks later. Then grabbed Heenan the next year... The sad thing is that Taman drafted Labbe in the six round and five years later Mack still couldn't find any better talent to backup Henoc. All I can say is that I am relieved Walters is in fully charge of the draft now. Edem would have been a big step to help rebuild this team. iso_55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17to85 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 When you compare what he did to other teams Macks drafting doesn't look that poor at all, stacks up pretty comparably. Trouble is people always focus on the guys taken later who worked out and said "SEE! HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS GUY!!111!!" You can do that for every team though, but no one here does it. Mack had his issues but I don't think drafting was really one of them. i'm inclined to agree. I certainly don't "hate" Mack for his approach to the draft, though the parting shots from Miller & Walters suggest otherwise. Still, I just don't see CIS drafting as our team's (and Mack's) Achilles heel....More like an atrocious approach to Free Agency (brought to you by Nyquil) and zero success at fixing the QB. Oh, and cost cutting guys that never really made sense (Kent). And of course, firing coaches at the absolute worst time and then letting the team disintegrate under Burke after that. Other than that, Mack was great. ;-) You don't mention the single biggest issue.... he was terrible at picking a head coach. You don't get the right guy coaching your team it doesn't matter what kind of talent you have it's not going to look good. Like BriceDream said, sitting on his hands during free agency. That was the worst mistake. No you are wrong. Giving Burke the head job was the single biggest mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebusrankin Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Butler is good but not as good or better than Henoc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpan85 Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Henoc was a lot better than Butler and still has a lot of growth in his game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Butler is good but not as good or better than Henoc. Both all-stars. Henoc is flashier and has a zillion tackles but I would take a 6'2 S/LB ball hawk as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Wonder how hard it's going to be to keep the same old gang together in Riderville. I'm on CFL Horsemen & a lot of Rider fans have come there to taunt Stamps fans & to gloat over their GC win. One especially, Jericho or Migs as you may remember him. More than just a few of them said that they expect Taman to be over the cap & justified that by saying, "C'mon, we were hosting the GC so it was expected we'd be over".... They think a GC justifies cheating which I don't agree with.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Wonder how hard it's going to be to keep the same old gang together in Riderville. I'm on CFL Horsemen & a lot of Rider fans have come there to taunt Stamps fans & to gloat over their GC win. One especially, Jericho or Migs as you may remember him. More than just a few of them said that they expect Taman to be over the cap & justified that by saying, "C'mon, we were hosting the GC so it was expected we'd be over".... They think a GC justifies cheating which I don't agree with.... If Taman's not over the cap, that's probably the final nail in Mack's coffin. Taman 'overpaid' for everybody... That being said, I'm sure Simon, Foley, McElveen, Williams, Ferri are pretty much cut or retired before FA season/bonuses... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 The attitude in Sask is that a championship justifies being over the cap. Priders are mostly saying it's only money so once the penalty is paid back to the CFL then it's no big deal. And THEY have no problem with it. The SMS was brought in originally because the Riders & their fans all wailed about the unfairness of some teams being able to outbid them for players & that it hindered them recruiting a decade ago. Such hypocrites now ten years later. blitzmore 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Wonder how hard it's going to be to keep the same old gang together in Riderville. I'm on CFL Horsemen & a lot of Rider fans have come there to taunt Stamps fans & to gloat over their GC win. One especially, Jericho or Migs as you may remember him. More than just a few of them said that they expect Taman to be over the cap & justified that by saying, "C'mon, we were hosting the GC so it was expected we'd be over".... They think a GC justifies cheating which I don't agree with.... If Taman's not over the cap, that's probably the final nail in Mack's coffin. Taman 'overpaid' for everybody... That being said, I'm sure Simon, Foley, McElveen, Williams, Ferri are pretty much cut or retired before FA season/bonuses... Simon had a good Grey Cup but I don't think he got 600 yards receiving the entire regular season. He still wants to come back & play next year.... He's a shell of his former self. & maybe the Riders don't want him back next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebusrankin Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Butler is good but not as good or better than Henoc. Both all-stars. Henoc is flashier and has a zillion tackles but I would take a 6'2 S/LB ball hawk as well. I'd take them both to, but Henoc is better. FYI Butler has never been an all-star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebusrankin Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 The attitude in Sask is that a championship justifies being over the cap. Priders are mostly saying it's only money so once the penalty is paid back to the CFL then it's no big deal. And THEY have no problem with it. The SMS was brought in originally because the Riders & their fans all wailed about the unfairness of some teams being able to outbid them for players & that it hindered them recruiting a decade ago. Such hypocrites now ten years later. That attitude from Rider fans is one of the reasons I dislike them. iso_55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Floyd Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Butler is good but not as good or better than Henoc. Both all-stars. Henoc is flashier and has a zillion tackles but I would take a 6'2 S/LB ball hawk as well. I'd take them both to, but Henoc is better. FYI Butler has never been an all-star. 2011 west division - close enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Wasn't Taman's secret to his success signing guys with big bonuses later thus creating a small window to win big before the cows come home to roost? It will be interesting to see if he's able to resign guys he needs to resign and/or of the Riders continue to be a top team over the next two or three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Dee Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 .Just what did you mean by that cow remark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacquie Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Wasn't Taman's secret to his success signing guys with big bonuses later thus creating a small window to win big before the cows come home to roost? It will be interesting to see if he's able to resign guys he needs to resign and/or of the Riders continue to be a top team over the next two or three years. And also deferring payments so they are paid in the next year's cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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