Have a chance to move up in the standings, wont come easy vs Vernon, hopefully we end his Int streak and the defense handles the Calgary O. LETS ******* GO!!!

1 minute ago, Goalie said:

Re Moxey: if tejada is worse than Moxey then both get an apple Iphone I suppose cuz it now comes with a roadmap of sorts.

Off with their heads really.

I don't think Texada could do worse, but it's not a given he does any better. Kyle needs to do his job.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

However, my assessment is based on the fact that over the past 2-3 years when injuries have forced us to test our depth our depth has failed miserably.

Has it really though? Injuries are how we wound up with Holm starting, injuries are how we wound up with Tony Jones starting. It's how we wound up with Pokey Wilson starting.... It's only ever injuries that allow guys to get a chance around here.

Look this isn't some new issue, it's been ongoing and persistent with O'Shea his whole time. Poor roster building and usage. We trotted out Sam Hurl for how long just because... You really think that was because he was the best option? How many guys got on the active roster in the past who stood on the sidelines and took 0 snaps in any facet... Used to happen a ton before younger just threw everyone out at some point.

If guys are not performing you don't leave them in forever. Even sitting them down for a half or a game can improve things. And if the depth goes in and fails then you know they're actually not worth keeping around and you should go get better depth. I mean osh says all the time guys are here because they think they're good enough and they're all starters... So why the hesitation to try something new?

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

I don't think Texada could do worse, but it's not a given he does any better. Kyle needs to do his job.

The dog catching frisbees at half would be better than Moxey.

Ps. WPW gonna be in the tailgate brawl this week. Winnipeg pro wrestling. It’s a fun thing. B4 the game.

What about the vet we signed to replace ford who was eventually cut and replaced by the guy we cut and replaced to bring in Moxey. There was a rookie there wasn’t there. That’s the past 4 years. Field corners activate.

Edited July 29Jul 29 by Goalie

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

Has it really though? Injuries are how we wound up with Holm starting, injuries are how we wound up with Tony Jones starting. It's how we wound up with Pokey Wilson starting.... It's only ever injuries that allow guys to get a chance around here.

Look this isn't some new issue, it's been ongoing and persistent with O'Shea his whole time. Poor roster building and usage. We trotted out Sam Hurl for how long just because... You really think that was because he was the best option? How many guys got on the active roster in the past who stood on the sidelines and took 0 snaps in any facet... Used to happen a ton before younger just threw everyone out at some point.

If guys are not performing you don't leave them in forever. Even sitting them down for a half or a game can improve things. And if the depth goes in and fails then you know they're actually not worth keeping around and you should go get better depth. I mean osh says all the time guys are here because they think they're good enough and they're all starters... So why the hesitation to try something new?

Holm did not begin starting 2-3 years ago. Tony Jones was platooning with Bighill before the injury, and WIlson won the starting job right out of camp. Not a single one of your examples is accurate. Live in the present times man. Since RIgmaiden has gone our cupboards our bare and Walters needs to find a way to get more talent. You keep reaching back 4-5 years ago, and I agree we had good depth back then, to make your point. My point is that we never stocked those cupboards back up again and what used to work is no longer working on a talent acquisition level.

Edited July 29Jul 29 by GCn20

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

Ok fair enough in Moxey's case....probably couldn't hurt.

Our biggest problem is a lack of talent imo. We are not good enough. You want to blame that on rostering, I want to blame it on acquisition. Tomatoes Tomahtoes. However, my assessment is based on the fact that over the past 2-3 years when injuries have forced us to test our depth our depth has failed miserably. That kind of proves my theory imo. At the end of the day, if we don't get more talent we are screwed. Walters I hope you are reading.

The PR consists of guys who agree to go on it. Not really in the coaches control whatsoever. If you think that even half the guys we chose accepted I think that would be optimistic.

you can recruit a guy to come up for a looksee and place there who is unemployed and looking to play somewhere...there are 100's and 100's if not 1000's of guys so it's not an impossible task. I know as well players talk..small community and it is well known coming to Winnipeg to compete for a roster spot where there are long tenured vets is also a waste of time and hinders recruitment...and isnt the best organization to come into anymore and get a true opportunity...Such is the case with some guys who looked really good and were asked to the PR in a lieu of a guy they knew..everyone knew they were better than..and said eff you

I agree some guys have failed...but also was it a poor assessment of the talent kept?....poor coaching and prep once they were kept?....not given any chance ever until desperately needed making it seem inadequate talent?...I'd say that more likely than anything id those reasons...Everyone else finda new talent...and plays it...and most these teams scouting units are all interconnected in some way and have a lot of if not all the same contacts...Its a matter of what we look for..who we choose to keep...not a lack of talent

9 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Tony Jones.... But he only got the opportunity because of an injury otherwise they'd have stuck with a cooked Adam Big hill forever.

But I guess because Bighill was ahead on the depth chart it means that he was just better right? Despite the very obvious improvement when he went in.... You see why you get push back from everyone when you make these pants on head ******** claims about the depth chart always being correct?

and the funny part of that was we scrap heaped him from a bottom feeder team who saw he wasn't the best option and went with a raw rookie...who subsequently went on to win R.O.Y that season

And part of our issue is yeah some guys who came off the bench didnt steal a job...but also were not really given the chance either...and if we are being serious with ourselves Osh fills his roster with guys who have zero potential and or ability to contribute on offence or defence...but are picked purely because in school...they were good on teams....but were not top players....A top player can also play teams as a rookie...2nd yr/3rd yr guy as they develop...possibly play it even even better and have growth potential and rotational ability/use...A guy we covet and over fill our roster with who can play special teams...but thats about it...well thats the issue here and has essentially made our depth and any transitional player/piece non-existant...hence the reason why in multiple Grey Cups we have rostered guys with no business playing due to injuries...and That hasnt happened just once

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Holm did not begin starting 2-3 years ago. Live in the present times man. Since RIgmaiden has gone our cupboards our bare and Walters needs to find a way to get more talent. You keep reaching back 4-5 years ago, and I agree we had good depth back then, to make your point. My point is that we never stocked those cupboards back up again.

The kids got a point there Valerie.

Slimes @17to85

So which guys specifically are you saying failed spectacularly then? I'm just grabbing names that actually got a chance because of injuries when they otherwise wouldn't have ever got it. Holm was straight up cut before being brought back... That's a guy who became an all-star that this coach decided wasn't good enough to keep around initially as a development guy.

Point being you are implicitly trusting the judgement of this coaching staff when there are numerous examples of their judgement being flawed....

Jake Thomas future bomber ring of honour member and head coach was also let go or not signed by Osh and or Walters regime. Then was and can’t get rid of the guy now. Examples.

FA signings

Demski. White. Nield. Cobb lol.

Stan. Neuf. Broxton.

Ceresna. Fletcher. Willie.

Jones. Shockingly I think that’s it.

Moxey.

Castillo.

The rest of the roster is either mainly drafted Canadians and guys our scouts found,

13. Oh. Griffin is 14. 14 maybe I’m now missing one or 2 but let’s say 15 free agent signings over the regimes time who are all still here.

Rest are Canadians and the result of American scouting not so recently but a few recent ones (pokey Woodbey major come to mind )

Edited July 29Jul 29 by Goalie

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Holm did not begin starting 2-3 years ago. Live in the present times man. Since RIgmaiden has gone our cupboards our bare and Walters needs to find a way to get more talent. You keep reaching back 4-5 years ago, and I agree we had good depth back then, to make your point. My point is that we never stocked those cupboards back up again and what used to work is no longer working on a talent acquisition level.

Holm was axed...wasnt deemed good enough...was only brought back due to a vet injury, and only then cause he was close in proximity...I believe hadnt even left city yet...and was started....and all of a sudden was lauded as this special talent with feet made in heaven....where was all this praise prior to being cut...nowhere...just a prime example of how we evaluate...and how probably many more guys have been dumped that were better, and could have become real good...He was also not a Rigmaiden find

And sure you can say what worked before on a acquisition level but doesn't now, actually is more relevant to coaching...so you cant just hold it on Scouts. Scouts and GM are not making the bad decisions in games...scouts dont say who to keep...or how to play them...That's coaching and every coach has a shelf life...they just do....How long has Osh been here? Alot of times after 8..9 yrs it gets stale...old...and just doesn't translate anymore...falls right in line with Osh tenure...

8 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So which guys specifically are you saying failed spectacularly then? I'm just grabbing names that actually got a chance because of injuries when they otherwise wouldn't have ever got it. Holm was straight up cut before being brought back... That's a guy who became an all-star that this coach decided wasn't good enough to keep around initially as a development guy.

Point being you are implicitly trusting the judgement of this coaching staff when there are numerous examples of their judgement being flawed....

as I mentioned...and was a desperate bring back cause was the easiest guy to bring in...Osh cut him...decided wasnt good enough...and sure thats not is only gaff...He also just this yr Rostered Jenkins over Reese...soley because he was a holdover and wowed Osh in 1 game...and was outplayed in camp by 4...if not 5 other DE's but now he is relagated to the PR

Imagine if Reese also said eff you I outta here knowinghe deserved a spot...Our dline production and really good play would not be what it currently is

Our 2 other receivers from last year looked like studs early in steel town.

And you could argue Ayers is a guy they also recently discovered.

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

So which guys specifically are you saying failed spectacularly then? I'm just grabbing names that actually got a chance because of injuries when they otherwise wouldn't have ever got it. Holm was straight up cut before being brought back... That's a guy who became an all-star that this coach decided wasn't good enough to keep around initially as a development guy.

Point being you are implicitly trusting the judgement of this coaching staff when there are numerous examples of their judgement being flawed....

only one of your guys came in due to injury or non-performance of the guy ahead of them. Wilson won his job out of camp and TJ was brought in specifically for, and was already playing, before the injury to Biggie. One guy over the past 4 years. I can name probably dozens of injury replacements that came in and failed. I'll get back to you once I compile my list. I know who I'm thinking of but names escape me sometimes.

38 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

So which guys specifically are you saying failed spectacularly then? I'm just grabbing names that actually got a chance because of injuries when they otherwise wouldn't have ever got it. Holm was straight up cut before being brought back... That's a guy who became an all-star that this coach decided wasn't good enough to keep around initially as a development guy.

Point being you are implicitly trusting the judgement of this coaching staff when there are numerous examples of their judgement being flawed....

Here is a list of guys who started in place of players that were underperforming or injured and flamed out. We have may 2-3 guys on our roster that played there way up the depth chart. Here is a list since 2022 of guys that got the opportunity and sucked.

Keion Adams, Carlton Adugosi, Des Lawrence, LB Mack, Greg McRae, Cedric Wilcotts, Ravi Alston, Miles Fox, Tyjuan Garbutt, Celestin Haba, Drew Richmond, Devin Adams, Marquis Bridges, Ali Fayad, Owen Hubert, Jeremy Murphy, Kody Case, Cam Echols, Jonathan Jones

So out of maybe 2 guys that worked out there are 20 that won't. That's a 10% success rate. That's not good enough.

So basically arguing about the same thing just who has the proper take on it all. Interesting. Interesting.

See what you done O’Shea. Kyle. The trinity. Zoltan. Baal. Look what you have done.

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

only one of your guys came in due to injury or non-performance of the guy ahead of them. Wilson won his job out of camp and TJ was brought in specifically for, and was already playing, before the injury to Biggie. One guy over the past 4 years. I can name probably dozens of injury replacements that came in and failed. I'll get back to you once I compile my list. I know who I'm thinking of but names escape me sometimes.

Here is a list of guys who started in place of players that were underperforming or injured and flamed out. We have may 2-3 guys on our roster that played there way up the depth chart. Here is a list since 2022 of guys that got the opportunity and sucked.

Keion Adams, Carlton Adugosi, Des Lawrence, LB Mack, Greg McRae, Cedric Wilcotts, Ravi Alston, Miles Fox, Tyjuan Garbutt, Celestin Haba, Drew Richmond, Devin Adams, Marquis Bridges, Ali Fayad, Owen Hubert, Jeremy Murphy, Kody Case, Cam Echols, Jonathan Jones

So out of maybe 2 guys that worked out there are 20 that won't. That's a 10% success rate. That's not good enough.

a lot of those guys were not injury replacement or guys brought on to replace underperformers...they were coaches choices right outta the gate...and then some sure...replaced an original bad choice

But I agree we have had not a lot of success choosing players...be it a bad coaches decision...or poor supply...But based on a lot of what we have seen...There is a lot of bad coaching decisions as its pretty hard to assess any player who for one...wasnt kept....or if kept never played

As for our current dilemma how can we say Womack..Singer..Poncius...Texada..Shay..Jackson..Vaval (on defence..heck even receiver) Vibert...Oyelola..heck even Hazen are not good options or not quality?....They havnt been played

We can say tho that a lot of our current starters havnt gotten it done...be it some due to age...some talent...maybe some a victim of covering for another player who is just not getting it....so to not mix and match...swap here or there...is basically either ignoring the issue...or not even seeing it

27 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

only one of your guys came in due to injury or non-performance of the guy ahead of them. Wilson won his job out of camp and TJ was brought in specifically for, and was already playing, before the injury to Biggie. One guy over the past 4 years. I can name probably dozens of injury replacements that came in and failed. I'll get back to you once I compile my list. I know who I'm thinking of but names escape me sometimes.

Here is a list of guys who started in place of players that were underperforming or injured and flamed out. We have may 2-3 guys on our roster that played there way up the depth chart. Here is a list since 2022 of guys that got the opportunity and sucked.

Keion Adams, Carlton Adugosi, Des Lawrence, LB Mack, Greg McRae, Cedric Wilcotts, Ravi Alston, Miles Fox, Tyjuan Garbutt, Celestin Haba, Drew Richmond, Devin Adams, Marquis Bridges, Ali Fayad, Owen Hubert, Jeremy Murphy, Kody Case, Cam Echols, Jonathan Jones

So out of maybe 2 guys that worked out there are 20 that won't. That's a 10% success rate. That's not good enough.

Lot of those guys got opportunity with other teams though... Some of those guys as well, case for example were puzzling keeps after training camp as well so your list ain't exactly saying everything you think it does. I saw Devin Adams make a play for the riders last week so good enough for the team that is the defending champs but not good enough here? Guys like Fox and Garbutt were better than some of the stuff we trotted out game in game out too. You don't need to be an all-star to be an improvement. Those guys seems to me had some injury issues themselves.

You have this idea that it's boom or bust... Sometimes small moves make outsized impacts in team sports.

Just now, 17to85 said:

Lot of those guys got opportunity with other teams though... Some of those guys as well, case for example were puzzling keeps after training camp as well so your list ain't exactly saying everything you think it does. I saw Devin Adams make a play for the riders last week so good enough for the team that is the defending champs but not good enough here? Guys like Fox and Garbutt were better than some of the stuff we trotted out game in game out too. You don't need to be an all-star to be an improvement. Those guys seems to me had some injury issues themselves.

You have this idea that it's boom or bust... Sometimes small moves make outsized impacts in team sports.

Adams, Fox and Garbutt being employed is not a ringing endorsement. All 3 were given opportunities here and were soooo good we had to replace them. You don't have to be an all star to be an improvement, but a fringe starter isn't worth playing either. I don't have an idea that it's boom or bust, I do have the idea that if you are going to replace a starter that they actually be an improvement or else you are making change for the sake of change and any football coach will tell you that just makes things worse.

All 3 were better than the **** we tossed out on the DL before this season full stop. The fact that they're still employed in the league is evidence to support that.

36 minutes ago, Booch said:

a lot of those guys were not injury replacement or guys brought on to replace underperformers...they were coaches choices right outta the gate...and then some sure...replaced an original bad choice

But I agree we have had not a lot of success choosing players...be it a bad coaches decision...or poor supply...But based on a lot of what we have seen...There is a lot of bad coaching decisions as its pretty hard to assess any player who for one...wasnt kept....or if kept never played

As for our current dilemma how can we say Womack..Singer..Poncius...Texada..Shay..Jackson..Vaval (on defence..heck even receiver) Vibert...Oyelola..heck even Hazen are not good options or not quality?....They havnt been played

We can say tho that a lot of our current starters havnt gotten it done...be it some due to age...some talent...maybe some a victim of covering for another player who is just not getting it....so to not mix and match...swap here or there...is basically either ignoring the issue...or not even seeing it

Not a single guy on my list started out of the gate. I restricted my list to players who started as a result of injury or the player ahead of them playing poorly. So while I cannot definitively say that the players you mentioned will not be an improvement, I have very clearly and undoubtedly illustrated that over the past several years we are batting about 10% success rate at finding improvement. That's not good odds. Once cannot blame a coach for not wanting to replace a player when they have a 10% success rate when they do. That's the problem. We need to do better at finding talent.

But using guys like Case or Johnson who round here were universally decried as puzzling keeps after training camp is only more evidence that our coaches make some damned puzzling decisions when it comes to evaluation of talent.

Just now, 17to85 said:

All 3 were better than the **** we tossed out on the DL before this season full stop. The fact that they're still employed in the league is evidence to support that.

Employment does not equate to anything. They are not starting calibre players in this league. No one has employed them as such. Just because we couldn't replace them with anything better doesn't mean they shouldn't have been replaced. It just further illustrates my point that we are not good at finding replacements when we very clearly need them.

One is on a grey cup contender (Adams and playing well) 2 are on another Grey Cup Contender (until BLM got hurt) tho Garbutt is hurt and Fox is more than good there....We...are not a contender currently...says a lot to me....Teams better than us see/seen value

I am more than happy tho with Reese, as well as Dixon..Surely Cersna as well if he starts to get full time reps so thats not an issue currently.

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Not a single guy on my list started out of the gate. I restricted my list to players who started as a result of injury or the player ahead of them playing poorly. So while I cannot definitively say that the players you mentioned will not be an improvement, I have very clearly and undoubtedly illustrated that over the past several years we are batting about 10% success rate at finding improvement. That's not good odds. Once cannot blame a coach for not wanting to replace a player when they have a 10% success rate when they do. That's the problem. We need to do better at finding talent.

maybe the coach should select better players out of the pool of TC guys perhaps??...there is that angle too ...cant just say he wasnt given good options...but based on end rosters that he did pick has a ver extensive resume of playing a lesser player over some of whom he kept...Cant deny that.

I think our surrent issue is all on him...he allowed it to get to this point and now is having a hard time turning it around...or just doesnt know how to

6 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Employment does not equate to anything. They are not starting calibre players in this league. No one has employed them as such. Just because we couldn't replace them with anything better doesn't mean they shouldn't have been replaced. It just further illustrates my point that we are not good at finding replacements when we very clearly need them.

We are currently starting a pile of guys who aren't starting calibre....

1 minute ago, Booch said:

One is on a grey cup contender (Adams and playing well) 2 are on another Grey Cup Contender (until BLM got hurt) tho Garbutt is hurt and Fox is more than good there....We...are not a contender currently...says a lot to me....Teams better than us see/seen value

I am more than happy tho with Reese, as well as Dixon..Surely Cersna as well if he starts to get full time reps so thats not an issue currently.

maybe the coach should select better players out of the pool of TC guys perhaps??...there is that angle too ...cant just say he wasnt given good options...but based on end rosters that he did pick has a ver extensive resume of playing a lesser player over some of whom he kept...Cant deny that.

I think our surrent issue is all on him...he allowed it to get to this point and now is having a hard time turning it around...or just doesnt know how to

You are really reaching if you think that we picked the wrong guys in TC. Not a single one of our TC cuts has resurfaced anywhere and done anything in this league and if you don't think that other GMs aren't scouring cut days you are highly mistaken. Fox is playing PT rotation in Hammy, Garbutt has largely sucked there, and Adams managed to find a spot in the worst DL in the league currently. Hardly a ringing endorsement of any of them. What has he allowed to happen. Who are these players he is supposed to magically pull out of his ass. The cupboards are bare and have been for a while. During our Grey Cup years our depth was raided and never replaced. The fact that we are discussing scrubs like Fox, Garbutt, and Adams as "the players who got away" is laughable.

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

We are currently starting a pile of guys who aren't starting calibre....

Yes we are and that speaks to the overall talent level of our roster. The airlift should be in full force and it isn't.

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Yes we are and that speaks to the overall talent level of our roster. The airlift should be in full force and it isn't.

So why is that? Not like they can't ever find guys who can make plays. There's some rookies on the roster doing well right now. Seems the biggest problem spots are the established guys.

18 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

You are really reaching if you think that we picked the wrong guys in TC. Not a single one of our TC cuts has resurfaced anywhere and done anything in this league and if you don't think that other GMs aren't scouring cut days you are highly mistaken. Fox is playing PT rotation in Hammy, Garbutt has largely sucked there, and Adams managed to find a spot in the worst DL in the league currently. Hardly a ringing endorsement of any of them. What has he allowed to happen. Who are these players he is supposed to magically pull out of his ass. The cupboards are bare and have been for a while. During our Grey Cup years our depth was raided and never replaced. The fact that we are discussing scrubs like Fox, Garbutt, and Adams as "the players who got away" is laughable.

Yes we are and that speaks to the overall talent level of our roster. The airlift should be in full force and it isn't.

Garbutt has played 6 gams there...9 tackles..a sack and a forced fumble...blew his knee out and still rehabbing...so how does that define sucking?...You said basically they all suck so why did they get picked up.....and a TC not resurfacing anywhere means nothing really...who elses end up elsewhere.....teams go with their scouts off-season work..so thats kind of a moot point...most guys we moved on from who took reps here played elsewhere...or are playing...Osh cut them..Others found they had value...whatever that was for their team and its needs...And bold out where i said "let player get away" as that was never said

But I will say it's dumb to get rid of a player no matter how marginal he may be before you have any talent in house to replace them with...Costs nothing to bring a guy back to camp and compete again...familiar with what you do and then cut if need be if you found a better player...and being a longer tenured vet doesn't equate to being better...Osh thinks so though.

And again...based on his history of playing some the poorer players in our employ...who knows how many players he missed the boat on in evaluating then subsequently letting go...maybe thats why he has nothing to pull out his ass. Cause he couldnt build a roster if one slapped him in the face. You can blame Walters all you like, but more blame goes to a coach who cant see talent...thats our issue...that and playing over the hill players based on what they did...many yrs ago as opposed to properly looking at a player and where they could be...

32 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

You are really reaching if you think that we picked the wrong guys in TC. Not a single one of our TC cuts has resurfaced anywhere and done anything in this league and if you don't think that other GMs aren't scouring cut days you are highly mistaken. Fox is playing PT rotation in Hammy, Garbutt has largely sucked there, and Adams managed to find a spot in the worst DL in the league currently. Hardly a ringing endorsement of any of them. What has he allowed to happen. Who are these players he is supposed to magically pull out of his ass. The cupboards are bare and have been for a while. During our Grey Cup years our depth was raided and never replaced. The fact that we are discussing scrubs like Fox, Garbutt, and Adams as "the players who got away" is laughable.

Yes we are and that speaks to the overall talent level of our roster. The airlift should be in full force and it isn't.

or coaches with no ability to get them there....or flawed schemes and mindsets...That also factors into it

I will just add this: look at the way Willie J is playing this year, with better players around him. Last year he would float around and look for knock downs, it looked like he was done. This is still happening at other positions.