Good to see Zach back in pads but we know everyone wants Dru to start, even Ottawa fans probably want Dru to annihilate the Redblacks to stick it to Dumbwiddie.

6 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The CFL put the brakes on young 9 qbs actually being devloped years ago. Instead, we have guys only doing short yardage at QB3 who can run. However, most don't have the ability to run an actual offense & throw the ball. That's 90 qbs that the league never tried to develop in the past decade.

I think it would also speak to how bad our acouting system is league wide if we did have actual 90 young qbs with promise come thru development & only 2 or 3 ever became starters. Then, you have to look & say what are teams doing scouting qbs? Well, as a league the CFL is in a real jam now looking at who backs up the starters at qb & if they can actually play.

Every team has a short yardage qb usually at #3.

I think this is just the natural QB cycle in the CFL. Every 10-15 years a generation of franchise QBs retires and there's a temporary gap while the next group establishes itself. The same thing happened when Calvillo, Burris, Ray, Glenn and Durant all left within a few seasons of each other, and it's happening again now.

I'm also not convinced a true #3 QB changes much. If your starter + QB #2 plays 17-18 games, where are those meaningful reps supposed to come from? QB development happens in games, not on the depth chart. That's why experienced backups tend to stick around for so long. The CFL has always valued guys with actual starts over prospects who have spent three years holding a clipboard.

Era	Established stars	Transition	Next generation
~2000-2013	Anthony Calvillo, Damon Allen, Dave Dickenson	Calvillo retired (2013), Allen (2007), Dickenson (2008)	Burris, Ray, Durant became the established starters
~2013-2020	Henry Burris, Ricky Ray, Darian Durant, Kevin Glenn	Burris (2017), Ray (2019), Glenn (2019), Durant (2017) all exited within a few years	Mitchell, Reilly, Collaros, Harris became the league's veteran core
2024+	Collaros, Mitchell, Harris	Current transition beginning	Brown, Rourke, Alexander, etc.

22 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

It takes more to win than just pinning winning & losing on the qb. Collectively, our receiving corps is the worst in the CFL for the second year in a row, The Trinity could have signed one more impact as there were a few out there. They chose not to. Condell doesn't use Oliveira the way he should, Our OL is old & getting beat like a dead horse. Bryant should have been told it's time to pack it in.

Im not saying youre wrong. But the other qbs didnt magically get a better team to work with than what ZC had. The biggest issue with that stat is opposing team played and the number of games. I wonder what the collective record of the 7-1 teams were compared to the 7-10.

And would the 7-1 record look similar if you added another 9 games?

6 hours ago, Rich said:

I think this is just the natural QB cycle in the CFL. Every 10-15 years a generation of franchise QBs retires and there's a temporary gap while the next group establishes itself. The same thing happened when Calvillo, Burris, Ray, Glenn and Durant all left within a few seasons of each other, and it's happening again now.

I'm also not convinced a true #3 QB changes much. If your starter + QB #2 plays 17-18 games, where are those meaningful reps supposed to come from? QB development happens in games, not on the depth chart. That's why experienced backups tend to stick around for so long. The CFL has always valued guys with actual starts over prospects who have spent three years holding a clipboard.

Era	Established stars	Transition	Next generation
~2000-2013	Anthony Calvillo, Damon Allen, Dave Dickenson	Calvillo retired (2013), Allen (2007), Dickenson (2008)	Burris, Ray, Durant became the established starters
~2013-2020	Henry Burris, Ricky Ray, Darian Durant, Kevin Glenn	Burris (2017), Ray (2019), Glenn (2019), Durant (2017) all exited within a few years	Mitchell, Reilly, Collaros, Harris became the league's veteran core
2024+	Collaros, Mitchell, Harris	Current transition beginning	Brown, Rourke, Alexander, etc.

I agree. I have been an avid CFL fan for over 40 years and can remember at least 4-5 times when QBs were aging out that CFL fans questioned whether another generation of starters was available. Always was a new stream available. Fact of the matter is we are still the best option for those falling just outside the NFL. If you are good enough you can make a half million a year here while playing the game you love. We will always get QBs. The timelines may change as to how soon out of college we get them, but we will get them.

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

I agree. I have been an avid CFL fan for over 40 years and can remember at least 4-5 times when QBs were aging out that CFL fans questioned whether another generation of starters was available. Always was a new stream available. Fact of the matter is we are still the best option for those falling just outside the NFL. If you are good enough you can make a half million a year here while playing the game you love. We will always get QBs. The timelines may change as to how soon out of college we get them, but we will get them.

yup...its the only other game in town....and if you have skill..wanna still play and make damn good money..the option is there

One the main problems/issues is for whatever reason a lot of HC up here in the last 10 yrs seemed to refuse to play the backups for any reason and get them valuable experience...and when they got pressed into duty the either sucked...or fizzled out on no fault of their own and teams moved on looking for the next prospect

Just now, Booch said:

yup...its the only other game in town....and if you have skill..wanna still play and make damn good money..the option is there

One the main problems/issues is for whatever reason a lot of HC up here in the last 10 yrs seemed to refuse to play the backups for any reason and get them valuable experience...and when they got pressed into duty the either sucked...or fizzled out on no fault of their own and teams moved on looking for the next prospect

Meh...i remember many years i couldn't even name our back up until suddenly a Tom Muecke goes in because of injury.

In those days there were the 80s Als, and the two Rider teams where you could pull your QB at half time because you had a 40 point lead. The league has parity now and garbage time is minimal

I remember one game in the 80s against the Als we put in our backups early in Q2 because we had a 35-0 lead..lol

Edited July 22Jul 22 by GCn20

10 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Meh...i remember many years i couldn't even name our back up until suddenly a Tom Muecke goes in because of injury.

In those days there were the 80s Als, and the two Rider teams where you could pull your QB at half time because you had a 40 point lead. The league has parity now and garbage time is minimal

I remember one game in the 80s against the Als we put in our backups early in Q2 because we had a 35-0 lead..lol

yeah teams are closer in competitiveness now for sure

But teams also were quick to pull the hook on ineffectiveness tho....Only a few will do that now...if any...Even if just for a series or 2 ...wont hurt...and can only help longterm and possibly in that game

I think its going to be harder to attract QBs with the introduction of NIL.

19 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

I remember one game in the 80s against the Als we put in our backups early in Q2 because we had a 35-0 lead..lol

yeah, those Clements / Hufnagel glory days were awesome ... back when Clements didn't finish 90% of his starts because he'd put the other team in garbage time by the middle of the third quarter .... or because he was having the odd suck game and Hufnagel would come off the bench to salvage things. Coach Murphy did not waste time going to his backup.

that said, back in the ZC8 glory days I had no trouble watching Zach play through any struggles -- we won so many games in the fourth quarter that I never lost the faith.

Edited July 22Jul 22 by johnzo

3 minutes ago, johnzo said:

yeah, those Clements / Hufnagel glory days were awesome ... back when Clements didn't finish 90% of his starts because he'd put the other team in garbage time by the middle of the third quarter .... or because he was having the odd suck game and Hufnagel would come off the bench to salvage things. Coach Murphy did not waste time going to his backup.

that said, back in the ZC8 glory days I had no trouble watching Zach play through any struggles -- we won so many games in the fourth quarter that I never lost the faith.

There is such a reluctance these days to employ an in-game 2qb system and i’m not talking short yardage. For all the naysayers out there what’s the worst that could happen? Oh it won’t work, okay if that’s what happens then stop doing it but you won’t know until you try mother f’r (mother f’r added for effect).

24 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

I think its going to be harder to attract QBs with the introduction of NIL.

Because college kids are known to be so great with their money that they can just live off of NIL for the rest of their lives?

I'm not sure the QBs we're targeting are getting much in the way of NIL anyway.

5 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

I think its going to be harder to attract QBs with the introduction of NIL.

NIL started, iirc, in 2021. A lot of factors are negatively impacting the quality of QBs coming to the CFL. The sheer size of NFL PRs, the NFLs struggles with the QB position, The NFLs adoption and development of west coast/option/dual threat QBs, Spring ball, the length of time the NFL can sit on guys in TC now, The pay increases to the NFL PR, the speed at which NFL teams churn through guys on their PR now, also as you stated the NIL.

The CFL hasn't often been the landing spot for the starting QBS from top 25-ranked teams. The starting QBs on the top 25 teams (plus a few here and there) range from 400k to 5.5 m. But Average more like 1-3.5m. That's a lot for a guy facing a rookie deal up here, but we have long been out of the bidding on those guys. Save for a couple rare outliers.

The non-top 25 starting QBs on Power 4 teams range from 400k-1.5m.

Backups and lower-tier school kids are averaging 50-300k.

The kids primarily coming up here now have backed up and/or red-shirted at a big school for 1-2 years, then hit the window and gone to a smaller school, or went to JUCO and then up to the backup spots.

It's also important to remember that with the transfer window and the nature of what that has unleashed, we don't see many 4-5 year starters anymore. It's mostly 1-2 year starters, often with 1 disappointing season, if 2, and either juco/low level time or backup time.

We also have to remember that even those who do get the bag for 1-3 years are still kids. Some guys will be smart and disciplined with money, but many are not. And while some guys will end up being independently wealthy on 2-5m of career earnings, many more will fall into the classic athletic earnings trap. Underestimating taxes, representation costs, hangers-on, and family costs, personal training, and overestimating the length of time they will be able to earn.

Diego Pavia made just over 2 million before deductions in his last year, but that is significantly more than he made the rest of his college career. He signed an NFL deal for over $ 3 million, but 885k for his first year. If he makes the team, he's already taken a step pay cut.

The top 25 kids last year made $ 2 million a year or more from the NIL. You have 67 Power 4 football teams. And 266 D1 football schools. So you run out of millionaire players long before you go down the list of the top 5 at each position group and the top 30 QBs.

10 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Because college kids are known to be so great with their money that they can just live off of NIL for the rest of their lives?

I'm not sure the QBs we're targeting are getting much in the way of NIL anyway.

Yep. I typed up a big ol rant on the realities of the NIL, but you got a perfect TLDR right there.

20 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

There is such a reluctance these days to employ an in-game 2qb system and i’m not talking short yardage. For all the naysayers out there what’s the worst that could happen? Oh it won’t work, okay if that’s what happens then stop doing it but you won’t know until you try mother f’r (mother f’r added for effect).

Its hard when you have guys who need to be in a rhythm passing. But if you don't have a top tier Qb1, I think you could do very well with mixing in 2 limited skill set guys. Especially with a dual-threat and with a read-option-heavy offence.

Edited July 22Jul 22 by wbbfan

7 minutes ago, Jesse said:

Because college kids are known to be so great with their money that they can just live off of NIL for the rest of their lives?

I'm not sure the QBs we're targeting are getting much in the way of NIL anyway.

Diego Pavia would disagree with you. He's been on our neg list for years and made a ton of NIL money.

I would also say with the amount of time some of these guys are spending in university, calling them college kids isn't quite accurate. Just look at David Reese - 8 years in university is a long way from being a typical college kid.

1 minute ago, bigg jay said:

Diego Pavia would disagree with you. He's been on our neg list for years and made a ton of NIL money.

I would also say with the amount of time some of these guys are spending in university, calling them college kids isn't quite accurate. Just look at David Reese - 8 years in university is a long way from being a typical college kid.

There will always be exceptions of course.

And any mid-20s person still in college is definitely still a kid.

21 hours ago, Goalie said:

I’m pretty sure they said weeks not months. So that could be 7 weeks cuz then it’s not months. It’s only 1 month plus 3 weeks. But I’d assume it’s like 2 or 3 weeks not 7. Zach will likely be out longer. I don’t think NR has been 6 gamed…. Yet.

Questions that keep you up at night. Ponder, ponder, ponder.

Edited July 22Jul 22 by SpeedFlex27

17 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

For all the naysayers out there what’s the worst that could happen? Oh it won’t work, okay if that’s what happens then stop doing it but you won’t know until you try mother f’r (mother f’r added for effect)

it depends who the backup is. like if I'm Mike Murphy and the sex pest is struggling, pulling him for Arbuckle doesn't seem unreasonable. Or if it's 2016 and I've got Matty Ice on the bench while Drew Willy is struggling, that seems fine. Or if it's 2026 and I've got a tandem of Brown and Zach, then maybe it's not unreasonable to swap 'em if one's struggling.

but say my backup is Terry Wilson, I'm inclined to let him stay on the bench texting his mom and let ZC8 sort it out on the field.

15 hours ago, bigg jay said:

Diego Pavia would disagree with you. He's been on our neg list for years and made a ton of NIL money.

I would also say with the amount of time some of these guys are spending in university, calling them college kids isn't quite accurate. Just look at David Reese - 8 years in university is a long way from being a typical college kid.

90% of Pavia's earnings came in his senior year, which was largely orchestrated by a donor rally to keep him.

We will see more guys like Reese, and I think that type of situation is a key one to watch. If the option is to come up to the CFL for, even let's say 90k/50k take-home (which is generous), or stay in college and make maybe 50-100k/35-75k take-home, it's going to be harder for the CFL to compete. The real holdback will always be that 99% of kids overestimate their NFL chances and come out early.

If more guys stick down south for their full eligibility, it could actually benefit the CFL. It would hurt in the short term, but long term, if the guys aren't making millions and get out of college around 25, you can be looking at an athlete in their prime with as much polish as possible.

ooops...wrong thread

Edited July 23Jul 23 by Booch

15 hours ago, johnzo said:

it depends who the backup is. like if I'm Mike Murphy and the sex pest is struggling, pulling him for Arbuckle doesn't seem unreasonable. Or if it's 2016 and I've got Matty Ice on the bench while Drew Willy is struggling, that seems fine. Or if it's 2026 and I've got a tandem of Brown and Zach, then maybe it's not unreasonable to swap 'em if one's struggling.

but say my backup is Terry Wilson, I'm inclined to let him stay on the bench texting his mom and let ZC8 sort it out on the field.

And therein lies the problem.

If you are relunctant to employ an in-game 2qb system because you have no confidence in your second string QB then why the F is he your second string QB in the first place? Fail.

6 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

And therein lies the problem.

If you are relunctant to employ an in-game 2qb system because you have no confidence in your second string QB then why the F is he your second string QB in the first place? Fail.

you're not wrong, but how many CFL teams have more than an unproven zero at QB2? Only teams with proven QB depth right now are us, Montreal and Toronto. Maybe Edmonton. And it's always been this way, teams with QB depth are the exception in this weird league.

2 minutes ago, johnzo said:

you're not wrong, but how many CFL teams have more than an unproven zero at QB2? Only teams with proven QB depth right now are us, Montreal and Toronto. Maybe Edmonton. And it's always been this way, teams with QB depth are the exception in this weird league.

I know I’m being harsh and probably missing tons of complexity as i armchair qb this but:

Scouting fail.

1 minute ago, HardCoreBlue said:

I know I’m being harsh and probably missing tons of complexity as i armchair qb this but:

Scouting fail.

Is it tho. There aren’t 32 starting calibre QBs in the nfl Nevermind 32 backups so yeah, obviously up here, it’s gonna be similar. But I think the elite nfl QBs like Allen burrow Lawrence maybe Lamar, Brady when he played, I’m missing a few, I think they would be starters up here also. I’m not sure Bo Zach Harris VA Alexander would be down there, maybe at one point if allowed to develop properly. The part that’s wild is b4 trading for Dru both our backups were cfl rookies. Our qb depth with cfl experience went from Zach to Dru and Zach eventually but prior to trading for Dru, we may have had the least experienced qb depth in the league. Zero passes thrown in a cfl game. TE has a few now. Perkins is the short yardage waste of development spot qb.

I look at a guy like Chad Kelly. Kind of seamless transition. Surely there’s a few of him but with less baggage around.

Part of it up here, mostly cis/usports trained oline vs majority American DL = injured QBs.

Edited July 23Jul 23 by Goalie

7 hours ago, HardCoreBlue said:

And therein lies the problem.

If you are relunctant to employ an in-game 2qb system because you have no confidence in your second string QB then why the F is he your second string QB in the first place? Fail.

Yep, which is the problem teams have put themselves in with QB3 designated as short yardage,

That's why every opportunity you have to get the back up reps...you give it to him..or should...be it a blow out of your team...or you blowing a team out...random series here and there as a change of pace....Yanking the starter if he sucks...even fora series or 2 just so he can see things from a diff angle on the sidelines...trust me that can actually be all he needs...neglecting to do so...well gets teams in the situ they are in...unproven backup...or backup who will suffer soley because he never gets real reps...Practice doesnt develop anyone...