Permission to talk: Is O'Shea leaving?

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, HardCoreBlue said:

It's always interesting to me how some here use extremes when describing others when these others (most, not all) don't think and/or post in extremes from what I have read.

For example, course corrections needed at all levels does not mean clean house, fire everybody.

It means what happens to our ball club if these course corrections are not made? 

Then cue the fight between faith and doubt.

You're probably too young to remember or even experienced but the final Bud Grant year in 1966, I believe they were 10-6 or 9-7 & finished second losing to the Riders in the Western Best of 3 series 2-0. Grant left for Minnesota in 1967. Grant did a minor retooling like you suggest after finishing 3-12-1 in 63 & 1-15 in 1964. They went 11-5 in 65 & got back to the GC to lose to Hamilton.

The 1967, 68 & 69 seasons under Joe Zaleski were dismal. Hit rock bottom under Jim Spavital in 70 going 2-14, My point. To avoid walking off a cliff some of the vets Osh likes should have been gone 2 years ago & replaced. with younger & cheaper players. Had Bud Grant not relied on so many aging vets in the mid 60's the team would have been years ahead of where they ended up in 1970. If Osh does come back then nothing will change. He'll still be loyal to a fault to Thomas, Kolo & other vets getting long in the tooth. That is when I believe this team will step off a cliff.

Look at how Wally Buono ran the Stamps & Lions. Never afraid to make the changes he saw fit. Letting veterans who could sgtill play but wanted top dollar go & replacing them with younger players who didn't cost as much. That philosophy made him the winningest coach in CFL history. Wally cut Allen Pitts after having a thousand yard season in 2000 for crying out loud. Who does that??? He replaced Pitts with rookie Marc Boerigter who was an impact receiver before heading soiuth to the NFL Chiefs. With Osh, would Bo even had got a chance?? What a ballsy move that was. 

Edited 19 hours ago by SpeedFlex27

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, HardCoreBlue said:

Bring back Mike Riley!

Fine, forget it.

Begin the thawing of Ray Jauch!

[Booch]

1 hour ago, wbbfan said:

LOL. I have always really likely Coach Riley. Whats he doing now, still in the USFL?

If he'd come...be excellent choice...if he didnt get poached early he'd have had multiple cups..and prob coached well into the 10 yr range

Guy was an excellent manager of a team..dealing with players..and on top of it all crazy smart positional coach/coordinator 

Even when he was HC at that time we only had minimal coaches so was heavily involved as DC along with HC

Prior to that top notch DB coach...but dare to dream

1 hour ago, voodoochylde said:

No, he doesn't.

He brings in talent but has no say in game day roster or who the head coach decides to keep.  What you're describing is the hallmark of a dysfunctional organization.  One of the reasons we've been so successful over the last decade is that each of Miller, Walters and O'Shea have stayed in their lanes and allowed each to do the job they've been hired for.  We can question whether or not Walters acted prudently with respect to our pending free agents or if he did enough to fill roster needs.  We can question whether or not Walters held O'Shea accountable for his decisions over the course of a season.  We can question O'Shea's in game management and roster make-up but to suggest that a GM is going to unilaterally release players without input from the coaching staff is ******* absurd.

Any g.m dictating roster during season or arbitrarily cutting guys over the coach is Glieberman territory and dysfunction at its highest degree

Once camp opens...its all HC on who stays...who goes...who plays..and how much...period...end...no deviation...

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

What is MOS stays?

We will continue the slide...and some players we don't want to leave.. Will leave and several that should have been gone for a few seasons now...will be back...basically

[SpeedFlex27]

49 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Begin the thawing of Ray Jauch!

Great coach. He resurrected Dieter Brock's career which was on the rocks under Bud Riley. Riley made him a sprint out passer. left & right. See just half the field, do a couple of reads & throw on the run.... Jauch took the time needed to teach Brock to read the whole field, go thru all his reads & get rid of the ball with his lightning release & rocket for an arm. Built an outstanding OL around Brock to give him time to throw. The rest is history. 

Edited 18 hours ago by SpeedFlex27

[Booch]

1 minute ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Great coach. He fresurrected Dieter Brock's career which was on the rocks under Mike Riley. Riley made him a sprint out passer. left & righgt. See just half the field & throw on the run.... Jauch took the time needed to teach him to read the whole field, go thru all his reads & get rid of the ball with his lightning release & rocket for an arm. Built an outstanding OL arounfd Brock to give him time to throw. The rest is history. 

Bud...not mike...how dare you slander Mike u old bugger! 😆

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, rebusrankin said:

What is MOS stays?

[SpeedFlex27]

29 minutes ago, Booch said:

Bud...not mike...how dare you slander Mike u old bugger! 😆

Whoops, meant Bud. Not Mike. Bud was Brock's first CFL Head Coach. He was a miserable sumbitch as Bomber HC. Feuded with the media & in particular Jack Matheson. The fans used to get on Bud something fierce with the playcalling. Sound familiar? But his son Mike was polar opposite. Loved by everyone. Gonna change that name. Thanks, Booch, 

Edited 18 hours ago by SpeedFlex27

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

What is MOS stays?

Unwanted,

[Noeller]

I dunno... Not saying what's right or wrong but the general vibe so far at the various Grey Cup Week parties (we've been wandering room to room) is that people really want Osh to stay. I don't think the hate has trickled down from the ravenous mob yet. It might get there yet, but it's not there as of now from what I can tell...

[Subzero]

Offer Jason Maas head coach/oc/gm after the cup

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, Subzero said:

Offer Jason Maas head coach/oc/gm after the cup

Macciocia. Football poobah & czar. 

[Noeller]

25 minutes ago, Subzero said:

Offer Jason Maas head coach/oc/gm after the cup

Literally just signed a contract extension like two weeks ago. Not going anywhere for a long time. 

[SpeedFlex27]

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Literally just signed a contract extension like two weeks ago. Not going anywhere for a long time. 

I'd like to know who works under Maccioccia as Asst GM. That organization is outstanding. They've found some great talent the past 3 seasons. Whoever that is, would be worth an interview. 

[Booch]

34 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I dunno... Not saying what's right or wrong but the general vibe so far at the various Grey Cup Week parties (we've been wandering room to room) is that people really want Osh to stay. I don't think the hate has trickled down from the ravenous mob yet. It might get there yet, but it's not there as of now from what I can tell...

Average fan that just looks at record..2 cup wins pretty much half decade ago...read the media slobbering but don't connect dots to the 4 straight failing yrs...and common theme as to why and what real issues are for sure will think hes da bomb...hence that sentiment...every good coach and situstion runs its course...that's why u don't see lifetime coaches in one spot...we ran a good 4 yr course bookended by 1 poor course that almost ended early....to one now that was cratering due to no reason other than self sabotage by a stubborn guy who can't seem to evolve further...it definitely time and he will be looked at in bomber history as one of the greats..but also flawed leading to his end

[kelownabomberfan]

4 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

What is MOS stays?

For $400 Alex?

36 minutes ago, Booch said:

...it definitely time and he will be looked at in bomber history as one of the greats..but also flawed leading to his end

so no different than....

1.  Bud Grant

2. Cal Murphy

3.  Dave Ritchie

Seems to be the fate of all coaches eventually.  Their loyalty to old vets costs them their jobs, in the end.  The problem in Winnipeg is that after we have these dynasties, we suck...for soooooo freaking long....

Edited 15 hours ago by kelownabomberfan

[bigg jay]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I'd like to know who works under Maccioccia as Asst GM. That organization is outstanding. They've found some great talent the past 3 seasons. Whoever that is, would be worth an interview. 

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/pier-yves-lavergne/

 

[Booch]

27 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

For $400 Alex?

so no different than....

1.  Bud Grant

2. Cal Murphy

3.  Dave Ritchie

Seems to be the fate of all coaches eventually.  Their loyalty to old vets costs them their jobs, in the end.  The problem in Winnipeg is that after we have these dynasties, we suck...for soooooo freaking long....

Bud Grant left for NFL tho...im sure if he stayed he would have eventually flamed out at somepoint tho...as its inevitable 

[SpeedFlex27]

50 minutes ago, Booch said:

Average fan that just looks at record..2 cup wins pretty much half decade ago...read the media slobbering but don't connect dots to the 4 straight failing yrs...and common theme as to why and what real issues are for sure will think hes da bomb...hence that sentiment...every good coach and situstion runs its course...that's why u don't see lifetime coaches in one spot...we ran a good 4 yr course bookended by 1 poor course that almost ended early....to one now that was cratering due to no reason other than self sabotage by a stubborn guy who can't seem to evolve further...it definitely time and he will be looked at in bomber history as one of the greats..but also flawed leading to his end

In pro football, the NFL the coaching eras of Tom Landry, George Halas, Vince Lombardi & Bill Belichek all came to an end. In the CFL. Bud Grant, Frank Clair, Wally Buono & Don Matthews all ended. In hockey, Punch Imlach, Emil Francis, Scotty Bowman & Al Arbour all came to an end. In baseball so did Managers Sparky Anderson, Tommy Lasorda & Billy Martin. They all ended. Some on their own terms, others not so fortunate. Eventually the message dulls over time & players tune out. In Winnipeg, Mike O'Shea's time is ending & he should sense it before he's shown the door. Now's the time to bow out on his terms. 

[sweep the leg]

Mike Riley is in his 70s. I’ll go out on a limb and predict he won’t be our coach next year.

[SpeedFlex27]

7 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

https://en.montrealalouettes.com/pier-yves-lavergne/

 

That's one guy we should be talking to. I wonder who the Als American scouts are? They found those receivers & Davis Alexander. 

2 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

Mike Riley is in his 70s. I’ll go out on a limb and predict he won’t be our coach next year.

No. I'd have to agree. He's retired. It's hard to believe that in 1988 & 90 when Mike Riley won those 2 Grey Cups that he was the youngest head coach in the CFL. 

Edited 15 hours ago by SpeedFlex27

[GCn20]

16 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The GM doesn't have final say. It's on O'Shea as you stated. 

HC has final say on how talent is assembled, GM has final say on what talent is available to the HC. That's how it works on our team, and every other team out there. Our lack of talent is 100% on the GM. We sit here and grouse about guys like Jake Thomas, but it is Kyle Walters that keeps putting contracts in front of him. Every offseason is an opportunity for the GM to get rid of or keep talent. The HC does not have any form of final say on the roster in that time. It is 100% the GM's job and responsibility as to who will be out there come June. If you know you have a player that you should move on from, even if he is a coaches favorite, it is 100% (and this can't even be disputed) up to the GM to have a tough conversation with a player and the coach who loves him and then swing the axe. It amazes me that you would think otherwise.  During the season, it is tougher on the GM to do that for sure, but at the end of the day he is the boss and the HC is the employee. If that is not the way it works in Winnipeg then Walters isn't doing his job properly.

This isn't some new phenomenon, for crissakes Walters signed Collaros to a 2 year extension the year after he clearly looked cooked. Is that on MOS? Not a chance. We've been talking about Thomas for the better part of 3 years now. Walters re-upped him twice. Walters hands out the contracts not MOS.

Edited 4 hours ago by GCn20

[Bigblue204]

People got talking to some players at the TD MB event yesterday and a few of them thought MOS was as good as gone.

[bigg jay]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

HC has final say on how talent is assembled, GM has final say on what talent is available to the HC. That's how it works on our team, and every other team out there. Our lack of talent is 100% on the GM. We sit here and grouse about guys like Jake Thomas, but it is Kyle Walters that keeps putting contracts in front of him. Every offseason is an opportunity for the GM to get rid of or keep talent. The HC does not have any form of final say on the roster in that time. It is 100% the GM's job and responsibility as to who will be out there come June. If you know you have a player that you should move on from, even if he is a coaches favorite, it is 100% (and this can't even be disputed) up to the GM to have a tough conversation with a player and the coach who loves him and then swing the axe. It amazes me that you would think otherwise.  During the season, it is tougher on the GM to do that for sure, but at the end of the day he is the boss and the HC is the employee. If that is not the way it works in Winnipeg then Walters isn't doing his job properly.

This isn't some new phenomenon, for crissakes Walters signed Collaros to a 2 year extension the year after he clearly looked cooked. Is that on MOS? Not a chance. We've been talking about Thomas for the better part of 3 years now. Walters re-upped him twice. Walters hands out the contracts not MOS.

Show your work - please provide sources for this, just as you ask others to back up their claims.  You've used media reports to back-up other statements but you seem to be ignoring the media reports that say MOS has just about as much say in personnel as Walters.  

They are both at fault for how this team is composed so it's not 100% on either guy but, IMO, MOS gets more heat as he's more visible of the two and he does get the blame for the gameday decisions.  Where Walters can carry more of the blame is the amount being paid to certain players (ZC, I'm looking at you) and how that may have hamstrung us in other areas.  Also ZC only signed a 1 year extension, not 2.  His 3 year deal already included the 2025 season but he was extended through 2026.

[17to85]

I Kyle walters puts 4 DTs on the training camp roster and oshea sticks with Jake Thomas over other guys even if the other guys are more skilled who's the issue there?

This whole stupid argument comes down to the insistence from one poster that our coach just always plays the best guys and if they are on the roster it's because no one is better.

[GCn20]

34 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

Show your work - please provide sources for this, just as you ask others to back up their claims.  You've used media reports to back-up other statements but you seem to be ignoring the media reports that say MOS has just about as much say in personnel as Walters.  

They are both at fault for how this team is composed so it's not 100% on either guy but, IMO, MOS gets more heat as he's more visible of the two and he does get the blame for the gameday decisions.  Where Walters can carry more of the blame is the amount being paid to certain players (ZC, I'm looking at you) and how that may have hamstrung us in other areas.  Also ZC only signed a 1 year extension, not 2.  His 3 year deal already included the 2025 season but he was extended through 2026.

If MOS has equal say to Walters then that is Walters failing. He is the GM, if he lets other people call the shots on his job, despite reservations he has, is he really doing his job well? I wouldn't think so. I'm not suggesting that MOS didn't have roster input, all coaches do. However, any GM that lets their HC have the final say on matters of contract and roster build that they disagree with should be fired. Simple as that. You or I, if we had a boss, could go to this person and make personell decisions? Nope. Not the way it works.

6 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

I Kyle walters puts 4 DTs on the training camp roster and oshea sticks with Jake Thomas over other guys even if the other guys are more skilled who's the issue there?

This whole stupid argument comes down to the insistence from one poster that our coach just always plays the best guys and if they are on the roster it's because no one is better.

We have no proof anyone else was better. None at all. Also, yes, sometimes a GM needs to save a coach from himself as part of the job. Just as MOS will/should drag his coordinators over the coals if their decisions are poor. Everyone here acting like poor Kyle did such a bang up job only to have MOS play inferior players and there was nothing he could do about it. What a crock that is. Lots he could have done about it and did not. When a coach screws up or is in the beginning of a pattern of screwing up that's on the coach. When the coaches boss allows it to happen over an extended period of time and even contributes to it by providing the personnel then it's more on him than the employee. KW has the final say, he is the GM. This nonsense going on as long as it did was a result of KW not doing his job.

I'm not defending MOS here, I am simply stating that KW facilitated and allowed all of this to go on. He is every bit as guilty as MOS for Jake Thomas still playing. Every bit. All coaches have players they tend to live in the past with, most competent GMs make that player go away to save the coach from himself. The coach can only play the players the GM provides. Don't want JT playing, don't sign JT. That was always KW's choice to make.

Edited 2 hours ago by GCn20