US Politics

[pigseye]

19 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

And Trump has done nothing but start trade wars and give the rich a tax cut. How do you think that will play out in the long run? Honestly I am curious. 

He won on NAFTA, so I'll give him that one, to early to call the rest of the disputes he has going on.

Small business is benefiting from the tax cuts, that is where there is a lot of support for his policies and when small business is doing well so is the economy.

I don't know what you mean by 'the long run' he only gets 8 years at it so I doubt there will be any slow down during his term, if it even goes 8 years.

There will always be a next recession, it's just depends on interest rates and inflation and when business puts the brakes on. 

[Mark F]

34 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

And Trump has done nothing but start trade wars and give the rich a tax cut. How do you think that will play out in the long run? Honestly I am curious. 

Its well known that tax cuts don't stimulate a country's economy. It's sold to the voters that way.

Quote

 

A new study from the Congressional Research Service, "Taxes and the Economy: An Economic Analysis of the Top Tax Rates Since 1945." 

Analysis of six decades of data found that top tax rates "have had little association with saving, investment, or productivity growth." However, the study found that reductions of capital gains taxes and top marginal rate taxes have led to greater income inequality. Past studies cited in the report have suggested that a broad-based tax rate reduction can have "a small to modest, positive effect on economic growth" or "no effect on economic growth."

Well into the 1950s, the top marginal tax rate was above 90%. Today it's 35%. But both real GDP and real per capita GDP were growing more than twice as fast in the 1950s as in the 2000s

 

Also, known as "trickle down" which was also shown repeatedly to not help the economy. 

Trump tax cuts have mostly gone to sharebuybacks. Not investment and wage growth.

financial wise, might want to throw in cost of wars, Bush war in Iraq now in the several trillions. 

One thing which is absolutely proven to destroy economies is tariff wars. And that too, is well known.

Edited October 9, 2018 by Mark F

[pigseye]

10 minutes ago, Mark F said:

Its well known that tax cuts don't stimulate a country's economy. It's sold to the voters that way.

Also, known as "trickle down" which was also shown repeatedly to not help the economy. 

Trump tax cuts have mostly gone to sharebuybacks. Not investment and wage growth.

financial wise, might want to throw in cost of wars, Bush war in Iraq now in the several trillions. 

One thing which is absolutely proven to destroy economies is tariff wars. And that too, is well known.

You're wrong about small business, this is the first tax break they have gotten in 30 years and will save them 20% on every $100G they earn, that's a big chuck and will let them reinvest in capital expenses. 

[17to85]

16 minutes ago, pigseye said:

Small business is benefiting from the tax cuts, that is where there is a lot of support for his policies and when small business is doing well so is the economy.

but small businesses are hurt by tariffs. 

Trump is helping one group and one group only, the ultra wealthy and to hell with the rest. 

[17to85]

23 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

no I'm saying that both parties play games, and both have dirty hands.  You can say that the Democrats are the shining white knights of American politics, but that just makes you look horribly naïve.

Bullshit. Trying to reduce the argument down to "they're all the same" is blatantly ignoring the very real and very damaging differences between how each party operates. 

There's lots of bullshit on all sides in politics, but the way Republicans and Democrats operate couldn't be more different. Democrats are at least willing to try and compromise with Rebuplicans. Hell the guy Obama nominated for the supreme court (since this is a relevant example to use right now) was a right winger anyway! He was quite popular among Republicans and Republican senators have flat out said they couldn't have a hearing on the guy because there was no reason to not confirm him so they delayed it with the hope that they'd get a Republican president and could put a Republican nominee in the position. 

Now compare that with Kavanaugh and the games you say the Democrats are playing... Just watching him in front of the senate I know that guy would make a horrible judge. He went on a red faced tirade about the left and the Clintons and even went so far as to threaten repercussions for him even having to answer questions about very real accusations of sexual misconduct. 

 

So tell me again about how they're all playing the same games.... Democrats are playing tiddlywinks, Republicans are in a bar room brawl. 

[pigseye]

5 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

but small businesses are hurt by tariffs. 

Trump is helping one group and one group only, the ultra wealthy and to hell with the rest. 

The economic indicators say otherwise. Your theory doesn't hold water against the actual numbers of income and unemployment. Will it be short lived? Maybe, maybe not, maybe the USA is actually back? 

[17to85]

2 minutes ago, pigseye said:

The economic indicators say otherwise. Your theory doesn't hold water against the actual numbers of income and unemployment. Will it be short lived? Maybe, maybe not, maybe the USA is actually back? 

again, it's a long term game. Things don't happen over night. That economy will drop and it'll be because of trumps policies, just in time for the Democrats to take the blame.

[pigseye]

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

again, it's a long term game. Things don't happen over night. That economy will drop and it'll be because of trumps policies, just in time for the Democrats to take the blame.

Recessions are a part of every economy, they all have to cool down to keep inflation and interest rates in check, that's how it goes. 

[bustamente]

47 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/politics/how-nikki-haley-played-the-white-house-game-—-and-won/ar-BBOalna?ocid=spartanntp

Nikki Haley resigns, big loss for the UN and the world.  I really liked how she stood up to the anti-Israeli bullies at the UN.  I hope they can find someone just as strong to fill her giant shoes.

Trump seems to think his daughter Ivanka is the most qualified but it would look like nepotism, she has nipped his rubber stamp in the bud.

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

No one is saying the dems are whiteknights- your constant defense of this trump administration by using "whataboutism" and pure speculative whataboutism makes you look horribly desperate and quite frankly uninformed. 

LOL - there's no "whataboutism" going on here.  Just trying to state that the black and white Repubs BAD! and Dems GOOD! is not really true, and just telling people you hate them if they don't 100% agree with you doesn't really solve anything. 

[kelownabomberfan]

43 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

but small businesses are hurt by tariffs. 

Trump is helping one group and one group only, the ultra wealthy and to hell with the rest. 

on this we can agree.  As much as I think the Dems are bozos, Trump is even worse.

[kelownabomberfan]

38 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Bullshit. 

no bullshit.  Just have a lot of experience.  The Democrats are just as dirty.  Just ask Bernie Sanders.

[kelownabomberfan]

16 minutes ago, bustamente said:

Trump seems to think his daughter Ivanka is the most qualified but it would look like nepotism, she has nipped his rubber stamp in the bud.

Jared Kushner apparently was a hero of the NAFTA proceedings, in that he was able to keep both sides talking between Canada and the US.  This has been confirmed by several sources.  He might be a good choice.

[bustamente]

8 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Jared Kushner apparently was a hero of the NAFTA proceedings, in that he was able to keep both sides talking between Canada and the US.  This has been confirmed by several sources.  He might be a good choice.

From what I hear Ivanka and Jared would be screened heavily for the position which would include a full financial disclosure, which would in all probability be a none starter for both.

[17to85]

18 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

no bullshit.  Just have a lot of experience.  The Democrats are just as dirty.  Just ask Bernie Sanders.

The fact that you don't even entertain the rest of the statement tells me that all your "experience" is bullshit. 

Politics is full of crap all around yes we agree on that, but there are huge differences between the levels the Republicans will stoop to and what the Democrats will do and if you can't see that and admit that and accept that then you are being wilfully blind because you are on team right. 

I'm a conservative leaning person myself but I can admit to the faults that exist within conservatism and I can sure as **** see that Trump is a clown dragging America down and the Republicans are busy grabbing as much for themselves and their rich buddies as they can while the getting is good. They are pretty much at the point of ripping copper wire out of the walls right now.

[kelownabomberfan]

39 minutes ago, bustamente said:

From what I hear Ivanka and Jared would be screened heavily for the position which would include a full financial disclosure, which would in all probability be a none starter for both.

Good points.

[kelownabomberfan]

31 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The fact that you don't even entertain the rest of the statement tells me that all your "experience" is bullshit. 

Lovely.

Quote

 

Politics is full of crap all around yes we agree on that, but there are huge differences between the levels the Republicans will stoop to and what the Democrats will do and if you can't see that and admit that and accept that then you are being wilfully blind because you are on team right. 

I'm a conservative leaning person myself but I can admit to the faults that exist within conservatism and I can sure as **** see that Trump is a clown dragging America down and the Republicans are busy grabbing as much for themselves and their rich buddies as they can while the getting is good. They are pretty much at the point of ripping copper wire out of the walls right now.

 

Drop the anger and look back a few posts.  I agree with you.

[The Unknown Poster]

17 hours ago, kelownabomberfan said:

no I'm saying that both parties play games, and both have dirty hands.  You can say that the Democrats are the shining white knights of American politics, but that just makes you look horribly naïve.

You've been proven wrong on this already.  Most politicians (and certainly political parties) play politics.  But its an alt right game to cover-up the sham of Kavs hearing with "well, the Dems play games too".  Its disingenuous and rather disgusting actually and again, you insult the poster who replied to you calling him naive when you have no response for the point he made.

Listening to CNN last night, I was struck again by what the alt right does.  They are extremists, just as the crazy far left is.  But the right take the most extreme example and use it to paint Democrats (and moderate conservatives, by the way) as crazy.  The example last night was defending Trump's attacks on Kav protesters as an "angry mob" by suggesting people who chase GOP members out of restaurants makes the catch-all painting of all protesters as mobs accurate.  This is why the discourse gets so nasty because the Dems (and moderate conservatives) are speaking about reality and the right are simply distracting and playing games.

Its possible the Dems would do the same if they controlled the White House and Congress, but the whataboutism is even more absurd when it's about future things that havent happened yet and we have reality of a Dem White House just two years ago when this didnt happen.

Playing the whatabout card is tiresome and moot.  Its entirely possible far left, deeply rooted partisan supporters would do or say anything to gain and keep power.  But that's not a defense to your position or the acts of the current government.

Its just far too easy to say, well whatabout when the Dems are in power and act this way, will people here condemn them?  Im pretty sure if the Dems conspire with Russia to steal an election, provide support and comfort to racists and white nationals, call a sexual assault victim evil and ram through a deeply troubled SCOTUS nominee with a fake sham investigation that most people here critical of Trump would absolutely condemn that.  But even if they didnt, it still doesnt excuse Trump and the GOP's behavior now....unless you're a deeply rooted partisan alt right supporter.

[The Unknown Poster]

Huge brain. 

 

[pigseye]

His base will lap that **** up. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, pigseye said:

His base will lap that **** up. 

Absolutely.  The base would eagerly accept that Kamala Harris is an alien (from Mars, not from another nation) if Trump said it.  Its an example of the dirty pool that really is a new turn to the basement than in previous years.   All politicians play politics, many dirty.  But not nearly to the extent of Trump and his cronies who would make Nixon blush.

[pigseye]

Don't forget though, Trump was never a politician and never the Republicans first choice, his wave of popularity left them with no choice but to back him and now they have to ride it out. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, pigseye said:

Don't forget though, Trump was never a politician and never the Republicans first choice, his wave of popularity left them with no choice but to back him and now they have to ride it out. 

We agree on this too.  The list of GOP'ers who bashed Trump and now praise him is long.  But thats party over country (or their own power & control over country).

Personally, I dont like the idea of any extreme element taking control, whether it be right or left.  The GOP doesnt have to cooperate with Trump.  I think their fear is, if they turned on him it would only help the Dems (in other words, no anti-Trump'er is suddenly going to vote for an anti-Trump GOP candidate).  But if they stood up to Trump and the result was a sweep for the Dems, the end result would be an eventual cleaning up of the conservative movement, pushing the racist, nasty extremists back to the dusty corners where they belong.

Im more of a social liberal now but as a general conservative, I dont want to see the right win at all costs.  I want to see the right cut out the cancer of the white nationalist movement and come back to a more responsible position.   

[pigseye]

24 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

We agree on this too.  The list of GOP'ers who bashed Trump and now praise him is long.  But thats party over country (or their own power & control over country).

Personally, I dont like the idea of any extreme element taking control, whether it be right or left.  The GOP doesnt have to cooperate with Trump.  I think their fear is, if they turned on him it would only help the Dems (in other words, no anti-Trump'er is suddenly going to vote for an anti-Trump GOP candidate).  But if they stood up to Trump and the result was a sweep for the Dems, the end result would be an eventual cleaning up of the conservative movement, pushing the racist, nasty extremists back to the dusty corners where they belong.

Im more of a social liberal now but as a general conservative, I dont want to see the right win at all costs.  I want to see the right cut out the cancer of the white nationalist movement and come back to a more responsible position.   

I'm a hard core conservative when it comes to the economy but as far left as one can go when it comes to social issues, I don't think there is a party that encompasses that so I bounce between PC and Liberal, mostly based on their economic policies.

In fact, I'm so far left on my social views that I think everyone should have a voice, even communists and nationalists, despite how repugnant they are to me. I think that's just how a democracy should work. 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, pigseye said:

I'm a hard core conservative when it comes to the economy but as far left as one can go when it comes to social issues, I don't think there is a party that encompasses that so I bounce between PC and Liberal, mostly based on their economic policies.

In fact, I'm so far left on my social views that I think everyone should have a voice, even communists and nationalists, despite how repugnant they are to me. I think that's just how a democracy should work. 

Racists have every right to free expression (to the point of hate speech I guess).  They certainly have the right to vote.  That's their voice.  I sort of come down hard when people say "who are you to decide who gets a voice".  Well, it might not be the same for most people but common sense is a pretty easy thing.  When Trump coddled and comforted racists and nazi's, he was very, very wrong.

Im pretty liberal on social issues.  I think in the US, its about time they seriously embrace the idea of universal health care.  Once they embrace it, they will figure out how to make it work.  Same with gun control.  Thats an easy one.  Gay rights.  Easy.  Abortion is tougher for me because I'm adopted (and grew up in a foster home, though I was not a foster child, my family had hundreds of foster children).  I am pro-life.  But Im generally not comfortable with over-turning RvW because of what it means to such a large group of citizens.  

I think too many politicians, and this is especially true of the GOP right now, value winning over doing the right thing.  I look at Jeff Flake who looked physically pained when confronted by women at the Senate...he looked like a man under heavy, heavy burden who truly wanted to do the right thing.  Sham investigation gave him an out and he took it.  Where was his moral convictions?  Thats what bothers me.