17to85

wait and see what shakes down with the head coaching positions league wide and then we will see the ability to talk to more guys.

Jones has always had say over who he gets on D.

I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with. Stats are a good starting point, not the be all and end all. Defenses have won lots of games. Edmonton's defense won most of the games that Reilly didn't play in. Hamilton's defense won games for them too and almost won them the eastern playoff. BTW: Hammy lost way more than just Collaros they were down to their 4th string QB by the end of the year. I can't argue that MB is a terrible coach. I blame O'Shea for hiring him in the first place and for not firing him after his first season. I agree that we need to upgrade the talent level on offense. I blame Walters for that because he's the one in charge of providing the talent. To me MB, Tracey and Etch were all terrible coaches and they were all hired by O'Shea. Here is where we disagree, I understand why they opted to keep Bellefool (I disagreed with the move last offseason). They thought they could spend on the OL and improve protection and didn't want to give Willy yet another offense to learn. That's not horrendous logic and better talent is always going to help an offense no matter who the coach is. It didn't work and they fired Bellefool so it's not like they don't see where issues are, they just don't make the instant moves some people want.

the Lions had a gimpy Lulay at qb who could barely throw and then had to use a bunch of rookies... not exactly a recipe for consistent offense.

Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats. Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all. That's a tired argument that I absolutely do not like. Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is tantalizing but what they conceal is vital. Here's what I know from watching the games... there were a hell of a lot of games that were winnable with even an average offensive output, we didn't get that. We were lucky in a lot of games to even get a good quarter out of the O let alone a good game. It's the CFL afterall, sometimes you still have to be able to score your way out of trouble, our team failed to do that. The D wasn't perfect but it was good enough and if they can get some better DL I'd have no trouble seeing them get better without too much trouble. You're comparing O'Shea to one of the worst HC's we've ever had. Sure, he's better than Burke but who cares? Unless he's better than the HC's of the teams ahead of us and that's 7 teams, it won't matter much. You're tired of using stats because they don't work in your favor. I watched the same games and I saw a defense that gave up a ton of yards and a ton of first downs and that wasn't just after they got tired. They couldn't get themselves off the field very often. The best thing they did was force teams into FG's instead of TD's but that wasn't enough for us to beat any of the top 5 teams. Of course we need a better offense and we're all hopeful that a new OC will be able to give that to us but it's not the only problem on the team. I put most of the troubles of this team on the plate of the talent as opposed to the coaching that's the big difference here. Stats are flawed, you should know that. Use your eyes, you can see the D did enough to win games with any kind of support, but they didn't get it. You and I both know that you can't win with just defence in the CFL. Edmonton had arguably the best D in the league but they still had an offense that was capable of doing something. Hamilton had another of the top defenses but when Collaros went down their winning ways left pretty quick too right? No defense will consistently win games for a team, they might win a few but none will carry an offense as sad sack as the Bombers for more than a handful of games. To me Bellefeuille was the only coach that was flat out terrible and he's gone now. Now it's up to them to hire a good candidate at the position and get some more talent for the existing coaches to work with.

rabble rabble rabble! NO WINS!!11!!! you aren't interested in reasons you made up your mind to see everything as negative it's not worth wasting words trying to convince you because you don't like to listen to anything other than your own whargarbl TRANSLATION: I have no basis for my position, I just like to sound self-important and pick internet fights. And when challenged to justify my position with facts or sound reasoning rather than just hot air, I ignore the question and turn my attack to the poster rather than addressing the post itself in an attempt to hide my ignorance. This shtick is old. Either back it up and contribute something meaningful to the debate, or go away quietly. Either way, spare us the arrogant "I'm too busy and smart to explain myself to the lesser-minded out there" B.S. No I'm just dropping down to that particular posters level. Have you ever seen him post anything after a win? He only shows up to ***** and moan and never provides any substance. Some people simply aren't worth the time or effort and deserve only derision.

Did they really? after the first 2 touchdowns in the Grey Cup the Esks D made them look pretty ordinary. Easy to be an OC when you don't have any injuries on the offense, but the good defenses could still shut that team down.

rabble rabble rabble! NO WINS!!11!!! you aren't interested in reasons you made up your mind to see everything as negative it's not worth wasting words trying to convince you because you don't like to listen to anything other than your own whargarbl

I made the mention that Eddie Steele and Don Oramasionwu made some plays early in the Grey Cup game, nothing like local boys stepping up in the home town. I'd agree that they should try and get more locals to a point. Can't just go all local because, but if guys are close go local.

Defense was our strength but not a strength when compared to the other teams. We ranked 8th in most of the big stats. Comparing O'Shea (.333 wins) to Burke (.250 wins) isn't the comparison that we need to do. We need to compare O'Shea to the other HC's in the league right now and he doesn't fair well at all. That's a tired argument that I absolutely do not like. Statistics are like a bikini, what they reveal is tantalizing but what they conceal is vital. Here's what I know from watching the games... there were a hell of a lot of games that were winnable with even an average offensive output, we didn't get that. We were lucky in a lot of games to even get a good quarter out of the O let alone a good game. It's the CFL afterall, sometimes you still have to be able to score your way out of trouble, our team failed to do that. The D wasn't perfect but it was good enough and if they can get some better DL I'd have no trouble seeing them get better without too much trouble.

I'd take Cortez with the game passing him by before Lapo who never had much game to start with.

The reality is that we hired inexperienced people so I am willing to give them a chance to learn on the job as long as they're not a complete clusterfuck (which they aren't) Yes I have more patience than you, but being impatient hasn't worked for 25 years why not try a different approach this time? I wasn't calling for O'Shea's or Walters heads at the end of last year because they were rookies who were learning on the job. (I didn't think they should have been hired in the first place, but that's another story.) They weren't rookies this year and they provided even worse results. Walters had a lot of good ideas. I like the way he revamped the scouting department and the way he hired more people, but he didn't staff it properly so it hasn't provided the results it should have. I like the idea of hiring more coaches, but I didn't like the choices. I like the idea of keeping our draft picks, but I don't like his drafting. I like that he's been busy in free agency and is willing to spend to get players to come to Winnipeg, but I don't like that he can't tell who's good and who's bad unless they've already played in the CFL (Ex: QB's/backup). Basically, I like the ideas but the execution isn't there. He's had 2.5 years to improve and I don't see much if any improvement. I liked O'Shea the player and O'Shea the special teams coach. I didn't like him as a rookie HC or as a sophomore for that matter. I think that 2 years is enough to figure out if he has it or not and he's come up way short. It shouldn't take total incompetence in all areas of the job to fire him. Missing the playoffs both years should be enough. This isn't the first time we've given a GM a 3rd year. Joe Mack was given 3 and a half. I remember arguing with you, 17, that he should be fired when we missed the playoffs in 2012. IIRC you said that we needed to bring him back for another year for consistency, so no, we aren't trying something new this time. Were doing what we usually do... Hiring inexperience and then keeping them too long when they aren't working out. The only thing we haven't done yet is extend a losing HC so they won't be a 'lame duck' then pay them to be a TSN coach instead of ours. That could still easily happen in the offseason. Look if Joe Mack hadn't give Tim Burke the head coaching duties he woulda been around a lot longer. O'Shea is a much better coach than Burke. Walters has his work cut out for him I've already said that, but there's really no harm in sticking with these guys for another year. A lot of the problems this past season stem from the offense and given that Willy was out most of the year and they've fired the offensive coordinator who is known to be less than stellar at the job I would suggest that it's not too much of a stretch to think the offense will be improved next season.

Let's all recall that Muamba took a long time to get signed when he was drafted and that the Bombers offered him a crap ton of money to extend his deal before he tried the NFL. Guy has always been motivated by money. Why didn't he sign here? Well 9 teams wanted to sign him and only 1 could, he opted to go with the deal Montreal offered for whatever reason. I won't shed too many tears though. We aren't exactly lacking at the linebacker position and guys like Muamba who are so motivated by money aren't the ones you build around anyway. He's a great player without a doubt but there are plenty of great players out there, we just need to find some more of them. Westerman is a pretty good star Canadian, get another guy like that from somewhere.

The reality is that we hired inexperienced people so I am willing to give them a chance to learn on the job as long as they're not a complete clusterfuck (which they aren't) Yes I have more patience than you, but being impatient hasn't worked for 25 years why not try a different approach this time?

Casey Creehan I believe

Surprise surprise the same people who are constantly nothing but positive see hope where there isn't any. We've already given O'Shea and Walters enough rope to hang themselves, and they did. Now we'll give them one more season to see if both of the first 2 seasons were flukes. The most likely outcome is we will have to make changes mid-season next year and that almost never works out. A new GM and HC would be stepping into a better situation now than Walters and O'Shea did. Mid season next year... not so much. I wouldn't say I'm constantly positive, I can point out things that are wrong, the trouble is when you see everything as being wrong anyone who tells you that not everything is wrong is seen as pumping sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. You are so certain that you alone are correct in that everything is **** that you won't even entertain the notion that it's not as bad as you think it is. As long as Walters and O'Shea aren't doing damage to the team (which they aren't) I'll give them another year at least to see if we need to be upgrading. Agree to disagree. IMO Walters and O'Shea are damaging the team and we already know what needs to be upgraded. Out of the playoffs for 2 years, not even 2 wins in a row for over a year and a half and not being able to beat any of the top 5 teams this year under these guys is as bad as I think it is. I really don't understand what you see in them. That being said, the decision's been made and we have to live with it or become a fan of a different team. As I'm a lifetime Bomber fan there's only one choice for me. This I disagree with... there's still a long way to go and we need to start winning some game ASAP... to say they're damaging the team is short sighted... 2 years ago no one wanted any part in coming to Winnipeg... not coaches, not players, we had no base of NI talent and our import players were suspect... while we still need to improve at bringing in imports, we definitely have a decent stable of base Canadian now... free agents are willing to sign here, and not necessarily b/c we are the highest bidder... this off-season we'll find out if we can attract some top coaching talent... they're putting us back on the CFL map... hopefully that will actually pay off this year... I still need to see a lot more to be convinced this regime can do more than provide hope... but there is no chance they are actually hurting the team... This exactly. A guy like Mike Kelly for example was mortgaging the future to try and eke out a few more wins in the present. Walters at least isn't giving away draft picks like it's going out of style or throwing players on the scrap heap instantly if the immediate results aren't there. He is committed to drafting (whether he's good enough at drafting is up for debate) and letting players work on improving with the idea eventually they'll be able to contribute in a larger way. There is a long term plan in place from what I can tell. Even if it winds up not working at least the new GM won't be left with a large tab in the form of lacking draft picks and even bodies at the NI positions. I think Kyle Walters has some flaws as a GM that he needs to improve on, and as much as I like Mike O'Shea as a coach I can see some areas I'd like him to be better in too... but they aren't actively harming the team long term so I'll give them time before firing them. Only way I fire them is if I can get one of the proven top guys to come here and replace them.

Surprise surprise the same people who are constantly nothing but positive see hope where there isn't any. We've already given O'Shea and Walters enough rope to hang themselves, and they did. Now we'll give them one more season to see if both of the first 2 seasons were flukes. The most likely outcome is we will have to make changes mid-season next year and that almost never works out. A new GM and HC would be stepping into a better situation now than Walters and O'Shea did. Mid season next year... not so much. I wouldn't say I'm constantly positive, I can point out things that are wrong, the trouble is when you see everything as being wrong anyone who tells you that not everything is wrong is seen as pumping sunshine and rainbows up everyones ass. You are so certain that you alone are correct in that everything is **** that you won't even entertain the notion that it's not as bad as you think it is. As long as Walters and O'Shea aren't doing damage to the team (which they aren't) I'll give them another year at least to see if we need to be upgrading.

The media did their spin job to make it sound like Ottawa was the good story and a lot of people buy the crap that Burris peddles about being the happiest and best person on the planet. The loudest I cheered in that game was when that arrogant tool got smacked at mid field. **** Henry Burris.

Surprise surprise the people who are constantly nothing but negative see no hope. It's not whether Walters and O'Shea are the right people, but the fact that they are being given enough rope to hang themselves is a good thing. It lets things stabilize themselves before we have to make yet another change to everything. Provides a bit more of a base to work with as opposed to the constant upheaval we've gone through, in particular with the Canadians on the team. People don't like to hear to but patience will be rewarded even if it does involve another change at GM. If a new GM walks in he's got a couple young OL developing, and a qb who can be the guy. That's a better starting position than any of the last GMs stepped into.

a voice at the top that isn't constantly changing.

I said to Noeller after the game watching the row of esks fans celebrating "I can't wait for that to be us" and i really do think it'll happen. Maybe not next year but things are stabilizing here and that'll be the big bonus.

after burris took that shot at midfield he definitely turtled. Got hit hard when he didn't see it coming and turned into the ***** we all know he is

I've never been to another festival but i can definitely say this one was highly enjoyable. So if that counts for anything good job winnipeg

but it felt colder than that with the slight wind that was blowing. All in all a good day at the stadium. I felt the game day experience was superior to the only other grey cup game I've been to (calgary 09) but that might be mostly due to a much much nicer stadium

because they were ******* with ottawa. Geeze it's not hard to figure out