17to85

Because it wasn't THAT long ago they were and the teams weren't championship teams. I for one still haven't forgiven Jim Daley for running Wickman out of town in favour of Willie Fells. Gavin Walls was also over shadowed by Tom Canada but I don't think he's as forgotten as all that among fans. You bring up his name anyone who has followed the team long enough will remember it.

Hang on a second, are we listing also rans as in guys who had high hopes but didn't pan out? Cause some of the players being listed were actually good players even if they didn't have a long tenure. I mean seeing Ryland Wickman on a list of also rans blows my mind, Wickman was great. So was Gavin Walls.

I think you are forgetting.... Mack has a better record than Walters and at least he made the playoffs one season and even appeared in the Grey Cup. We got some nice depth NI guys but how many real impact ones do we have? Who is our best NI player (other than Harris who any Winnipeg GM would have signed given he is a local and a proven commodity?) Never mind that it was Walters who was the NI guy for Mack anyway, and we can see from his work as GM that there isn't all that much difference in how the drafting has gone. At least Mack put some playmakers on the field from out of nowhere. All Walters does is spend in free agency and hope for the best. No team has ever been built through free agency.

bullshit, there are no credible sources speculating that firing O'Shea is even being considered right now and one source even says it's not in the cards yet you put up this same poll as last week, for what reason? There is only one, to get people talking about firing the coach.

I think people were done even before last night, that just cemented it for them, I know this because there wasn't even a gif thread yesterday. To me that is always the best indicator of apathy levels.

Then the GM shouldn't be so firmly in his coaches corner.

But then he pussied out on a deep pass from Nichols and looked for a flag. That guy is a problem on this team mark my words. Yeah he might be pissed off, but he's so inconsistent with his own effort it's not even funny.

You can make changes to players with O'Shea there too. The Gm is well within his rights to tell a coach how his roster is going to be if he isn't on board with it. It wouldn't be the first time it's happened and it won't be the last. What we know is that Walters and O'Shea are on the same page, arguing about whether to fire O'Shea or Willy rather than Walters is pointless because until the man in charge of building this team is held accountable it's more of the same. The season won't be saved by a coaching change or a quarterback change, we've seen countless quarterbacks here the last few years and quite a few coaches. I use terms like witch hunt because it fits. You really aren't interested in delving into the problems with the team you just want a big shiny scapegoat to pin all the blames on and you bang away at that drum. It's like all you want is the public spectacle of someone being held accountable. I'd rather address what is really wrong with this team. If they're going to blow it up, do it in the offseason and identify the correct person to be GM and get them here and let them build it. Trying to do a massive foundation repair by putting a new coat of paint on the house isn't going to work.

Unless you got an ace to come in and be GM right now then fire Walters in the offseason, get someone good in here and let them do what they will with the coaching staff and roster. Making token changes to the coaching staff now and throwing in with Walters for more years is just going to lead to more of the same.

Davis didn't do **** in preseason anyway and he still made the team, with him I think it was all about what they saw previously. Now as for why guys made it to camp and didn't I don't know but I have a real hard time believing that the choice to bring a guy to camp or not is based purely on attitude. Making that decision after training camp certainly, but before? I dunno that seems a stretch. Again I'm not discounting the theory because I do believe the underlying idea does have some truth to it, just that this specific case seems more nuanced.

We've had 3 years to see Walters work and it's been spotty the whole time so that argument doesn't fly, you're just all in for a witch hunt because you want heads to roll. What Willy makes doesn't matter because if you just start picking off the qb it's not going to change the team or the offense, we saw plenty of games without Willy when he's been hurt and it was an even bigger pile of ****. Fire the coach? Well we'll wind up with losers like Hall or Lapo and it'll be the same **** again because it's more of the same Mr. Nice Guy approach. You want to cry for change then cry for meaningful change. Walters is the guy who built this and he is the guy we should be pointing fingers at. We only make changes at qb or the coach mark my words we're going to be sitting here in 2 years time ready to fire another coach and run another qb out of town.

I said it before though, with Davis playing well perhaps they really did just like others better. Football is a game of opportunities sometimes. I will agree with your overall theory though, there is absolutely no reason this team shouldn't have been paying to retain someone like Demond Washington. Yeah he's hurt this year but that guy was a play maker and he had an attitude to match, but he was arguably the best db on the team last year. But here is the thing, Walters hired O'Shea, Walters is the GM and is he also in that good men crowd? because they both seem very in sync with regards to what they want.

What did Nichols show that Willy didn't? Willy made the one error on an interception but he was getting the ball away fine as well, the touchdown that Nichols scored was after a real good kick return too was it not? He didn't have to march the entire field to score it, not to mention that he was also in there during 3 down time and did take all 3 downs to get some first downs. The O was the exact same with Nichols and Willy last night. Some good but still lots of pressures and hits on the qb and too many dropped passes and receivers not making enough plays. You play Nichols you play Willy nothing is going to change. We can't establish the run, we can barely make 8 yards in 2 tries as an offense, these are deep rooted problems that shuffling the qb won't change.

If that's the case though then the GM needs to put his foot down and tell the coach that sometimes you put an ******* on the team because he's a flat out better player. It still comes down to the GM and for 3 years now this team hasn't been talented enough. We dropped Moore and Denmark in the offseason and replaced them with Dressler and Smith. Now Dressler I liked signing for a lot of reasons, but what's the logic behind Smith? Now we got 2 midgets in the receiving corps who play the same kind of game and our big receiver (Adams) quite frankly doesn't give enough of a **** to be consistent. We haven't seen a rookie receiver come in and make much of an impact until this season which is just flat out unacceptable. I understand moving on from Moore because a guy who got hurt that much is hard to rely on, so bring in Dressler, he's a vet and he showed last night how he can help a team, but changing out Denmark for Smith is just a lateral move at best and really not well thought out. Kyle Walters has failed to build a team here and it's on him because he is the one who put everything in place. I don't much like our coordinators either, Both Hall and Lapo are passive to a fault and I think the CFL has moved away from that in general but I believe both those hires come back to a rookie head coach trying to surround himself with some more experience and both those guys are experienced including some head coaching experience.

So you recognise that the problem starts higher up and is more widespread yet spend all your time here on a witch hunt for O'Shea and Willy anyway? Come off it. You just love to pin the blame on the easiest target (the coach and the qb) but we could change them out tomorrow and the team would have the exact same problems because it's the GM that built this crap fest. Save your energy and don't pile on guys who are just trying to make the best of what they were given.

but what about the D getting absolutely abused in the first half? They were awful from the get go.

If they were easily replaced then why hasn't Walters replaced them in the 3 years he's been here? If they're easily replaced why is there no depth anywhere on this team? A team that gets as crippled by injuries as this one does isn't going to win no matter who you have at qb. Khari Jones had the same thing happen to him, when the depth sucked and injuries hit the team looked useless all of a sudden. Same with Kevin Glenn. You need good pieces around a qb to be successful. It's simplistic and incompletely analysis to just say "oh the qb is the big problem" or "the coach is the big problem" We have a GM that can't build depth, can't add to talent and is at best treading water with his moves. It doesn't matter what Willy makes, it flat out doesn't. This roster isn't good enough to win and pretending that it is with a coaching change or a qb change is just playing silly buggers.

The interception was really the only mistake Willy made and BLM made a mistake too and threw an interception, that sort of thing happens to every qb. Problems on this team go way deeper than the qb and we saw the exact same things with Nichols that we saw with Willy. Not good enough OL or receivers or game plan.

The offense looked exactly the same when Nichols went in. Receivers dropping passes, OL missing blocks and getting the qb cranked. needing 3 downs to get first downs, needing a big kick return to set up field position to be close enough to the endzone to score. Why is everyone always on the qb and the coach when clearly this team isn't talented enough? We have some good pieces on this team, but not enough of them and not enough depth behind them.

Still blows me away that people are on the coaches or the qb when clearly the problem is the guy building the team. All those free agent receivers and it's just shuffling the deck chairs because we are still using Darvin Adams like he is a #2 when the reality is he is a replaceable #4 that every team has a couple of (except us, after 3 years Walters finally found a rookie who might be better than him). He needs to go and unfortunately he's going to take Mike O'Shea down with him. That's the biggest shame of it all. It is absolutely sickening to see back to back first down plays in a series lose yards on a straight forward hand off up the middle. That's guys getting their asses kicked. It is sickening to see the qb hit a receiver in the chest with a pass and then the ball hit the ground. This team needs someone who can actually build a team and not just play fantasy football on free agent day.

Better than Posey but that's a low bar. Let's be honest though, when you lose your only solid defensive back in Randle it's going to be a gong show in the secondary and it was. After the refs ignored the offside on third and short and the Stamps scored that was the game. They were not coming back with the secondary they were using because they flat out did not have the horses back there to stop the Stamps the amount of times it would be required for the offense to outscore the hole.

I would suspect that if there was any threat of selling out the game or even coming close to it they'd sell every ticket they could but in the mean time they probably do want to keep some seats to try and entice season ticket holders to come in part way through the season.

That stat is deliberately misleading. Since scoring more than 30 points (last one I see is game 3 2014) However they have hit 30 points a few times since then and been a couple points away from 30 even more so while it's still not a great stat, I think more than 30 is chosen simply to make it look spectacularly bad. Really is there that great a difference between an offense scoring 30 points vs 31 points? or even 28 points and 31 points? Obviously some wins and losses but still, I think that stat is just headline seeking. The problems are there to see with or without an arbitrary cut off like that.

Lyle Bauer wanted to do a solid for his buddy Mike Kelly who was sure to send the Bombers on to glory... except it dug a hole so deep we're still trying to get out of it.

I suspect that they are just too dumb on the inside. Lots of problems knowing who to pick up. Perhaps it's a simple as Goosen not being cagey enough to call the blocking correctly? They do show flashes of being capable, but when assignments are missed the inconsistency leads to bad things, especially with a qb who has PTSD about getting hit.