Sign Willy!

[Noeller]

 

 

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

 

 

Regardless of your thinking related to the cap, you're making it sound like one had to be done, in order to do the other.

 

This...people thinking we're hard against the cap, so we need to clear out space to make room for 100k. Can't possibly be true...they're not that stupid.

[Mike]

 

 

 

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

Regardless of your thinking related to the cap, you're making it sound like one had to be done, in order to do the other.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know for sure that's the case, but the two moves (Vega cut and Willy extension) might be related. I never once said that the Bombers were tight against the cap.

 

 

I sense either a bit of backpedaling or a bit of misunderstanding between two sides here.

 

TrueBlue just said "you're making it sound like one had to be done in order to do the other" - had to.

And you said "yes that's exactly what I'm saying" but then say "I never once said that the Bombers were tight against the cap"

 

If you're not saying they're tight against the cap, why would there be a need for them to release one player simply to afford another?

[gbill2004]

Also ... there's literally zero chance we're up against the cap at this point. We still have lots of money to spend.

That's why isolating moves like the Vega release to suggest it was in order to afford Willy isn't a suggestion that carries much backing.

I never said we were against the cap when I said Vega's cut may be related to a Willy extension. You're talking like you know, when in reality you have no clue what our cap situation is.

Let's say Walters projects to be $300k under the cap before the season starts. A Willy extension puts him over that, so he cuts Vega to sign Willy and still allow that $300k cushion.

Regardless of your thinking related to the cap, you're making it sound like one had to be done, in order to do the other.

Yes that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know for sure that's the case, but the two moves (Vega cut and Willy extension) might be related. I never once said that the Bombers were tight against the cap.

I sense either a bit of backpedaling or a bit of misunderstanding between two sides here.

TrueBlue just said "you're making it sound like one had to be done in order to do the other" - had to.

And you said "yes that's exactly what I'm saying" but then say "I never once said that the Bombers were tight against the cap"

If you're not saying they're tight against the cap, why would there be a need for them to release one player simply to afford another?

Not backpeddling at all. Read my example on the $300k cushion. The $300k is just a made up number.

[Atomic]

The money has to come from somewhere. Walters likely has a plan for where each dollar is going to go. Maybe that plan includes an extension for Willy. Maybe that planned amount of money isn't enough to get the deal done. So the amount goes up. The plan must be adjusted to reflect this.

Its not like Walters sits there and spends and hopes he is under the cap at the end of the year. There has to be a plan. and if Willy's extension can't fit into that plan, you have to make room.

[Noeller]

...and they've known for a very long time that an extension would be (hopefully) necessary, so there can be no doubt that this wasn't part of their plan all along.

[Atomic]

If it was that simple he would already be signed to a new deal. He obviously is seeking more than Walters wants to pay. Which means if Walters wants to acquiesce to Willy, Lawless, Noeller, Mike, and everyone else, he has to spend more than he wanted to.

[gbill2004]

...and they've known for a very long time that an extension would be (hopefully) necessary, so there can be no doubt that this wasn't part of their plan all along.

True, but the plan could have involved a lower cap hit than what they may be looking at now based on negotiations. And Walters thinking could have been if they can get Willy for $350, then they can keep certain guys, but if it gets to $400k, then someone's gotta go. Again, I'm just speculating in this specific case, but that's the reality of a salary cap world...someone gets a raise, another player is gone.

[Mike]

If it was that simple he would already be signed to a new deal. He obviously is seeking more than Walters wants to pay. Which means if Walters wants to acquiesce to Willy, Lawless, Noeller, Mike, and everyone else, he has to spend more than he wanted to.

 

Or maybe the deal is easier than you think to make and it's just a matter of financing it in a way that suits the team and Willy the best.

 

Either way, this is probably one of the better debates we've had on this forum this offseason so let's keep fighting.

[mbrg]

If Kyle Walters is in a position where he is "up against it" cap-wise a month before training camp even opens because of the possibility of extending the QB he traded for 14 months ago in the hopes of him becoming a franchise QB, he is an incompetent GM.

 

I do not think Kyle Walters is an incompetent GM.

[Atomic]

Publicize player salaries already

[M.O.A.B.]

Maybe burris money with performance goals? Start all 18 = bonus. Win 12-14 games = bonus.

If he plays at a level with the league elite then pay him like an elite starter. If he's a mid tier incentives/bonuses should reflect that.

I would like avoid risking him to free agency or and possibly locking him up long term. If he doesn't reach the potential we all think he's has then we cut him when someone takes his place. I'm think Sam Canadian can make a come back still no?

But if we can also sign Ricky Ray why wouldn't we do that? Maybe willy as a number two (doubt he would settle). As for lulay, baring an incredible comeback I think his days are numbered with the shoulder injuries.

 

Is this Sam Canadian ?

 

 

https://twitter.com/chatfootball/status/593495279061606400/photo/1

[Adrenaline_x]

I don't agree with paying willy 4-500K and cutting him if he doesn't play like an elite QB.   It either is he plays at an elite level and we are happy or he doesn't play at an elite level and we are force to cut him/renegotiate.

 

What if he plays like a Danny Mac, or Kevin Glenn level for us?  Better then all the QBs we've had since Glenn but not in the top 4 for QBs in the league?  do we cut him because we are overpaying him?  Do we try and Renegotiate his contract to pay him less and he walks like Lefors did?  

 

I'm all for paying him a mid-tier base QB contract (250-350k) that makes sense if he is above servicable like Glenn etc, but will incentives that lets him get paid 400-500k like a top tier QB is he plays lights out?

 

I think by paying him elite qb level money might force our hand to cut him if he turns out to be better then all the rest we've fielded in the past but isn't playing like burris, tate, ray, lulay?

 

There is nothing saying we can't succeed with a Kevin glenn type QB that contributes enough to help the team win without having to carry the team on his own.. 

[Rich]

I know that 4 - 500k sounds like a lot for all but the elite QBs, but it will be really interesting to see what the elite QBs start to command as current contracts end and the cream of the crop get re-signed under the new cap.

 

4 - 500 might still be too much for a league "average" QB.  But I don't think the market has really been set yet.  Will need a couple more years to see what the top 2 - 3 guys make compared to the next 2 - 3 "average" starting QBs.

[Doublezero]

Willy should be, better be, an improved QB this season: sophomore starter, better pass protection, tweaked offence, more balanced attack etc.

Even the new rule changes should help overall offensive production and, by extension, every QB in the league. 

Let's see if he rises to the occasion. If he does, offer him a new deal post-2015 as he approaches FA.

It would be premature to give him a whacking raise at this stage - he's proven nothing.

That said - really looking forward to this season! How long til TC?

[TBURGESS]

A few things to ponder:

 

Pay WIlly a $100K bonus and it's gone from our SMS day 1.  If we don't extend Willy there's zero gone from the SMS day 1.

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

If Brohm or Marve are outplaying Willy in practice, is it harder to replace him for a game if he has just signed a 400K contract?

 

If Walters thought he was worth what he's asking, wouldn't the deal have been done already? 

[TrueBlue]

A few things to ponder:

 

Pay WIlly a $100K bonus and it's gone from our SMS day 1.  If we don't extend Willy there's zero gone from the SMS day 1.

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

If Brohm or Marve are outplaying Willy in practice, is it harder to replace him for a game if he has just signed a 400K contract?

 

If Walters thought he was worth what he's asking, wouldn't the deal have been done already? 

 

If Walters thought Drew was worth what he's asking right off the bat, then Drew's agent isn't very good.

[mbrg]

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

That's just a silly game to play.  If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt.  Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

[TBURGESS]

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

That's just a silly game to play.  If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt.  Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

 

What a silly answer.  Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades.  Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place.  Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season.  If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion.  BTW:  The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise. 

[gbill2004]

I'd rather pay an extra $50k than risk losing him.

[Mike]

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K? (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

That's just a silly game to play. If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt. Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

What a silly answer. Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades. Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place. Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season. If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion. BTW: The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise.

You're right there's hardly any risk involved in allowing him to play out the last year of his contract and test free agency while we also have his heir apparent (to some) hoping to head to the NFL next offseason.

[M.O.A.B.]

 

 

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K? (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

That's just a silly game to play. If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt. Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

What a silly answer. Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades. Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place. Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season. If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion. BTW: The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise.

You're right there's hardly any risk involved in allowing him to play out the last year of his contract and test free agency while we also have his heir apparent (to some) hoping to head to the NFL next offseason.

 

 

Worse comes to worse, Bombers lose Willy to 2016 free-agency. Marve wouldn't commit here and wanting to exhaust his NFL options. Brohm might take the same route. And we end up with Portish.

[Noeller]

 

 

 

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K? (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

That's just a silly game to play. If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt. Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

What a silly answer. Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades. Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place. Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season. If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion. BTW: The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise.

You're right there's hardly any risk involved in allowing him to play out the last year of his contract and test free agency while we also have his heir apparent (to some) hoping to head to the NFL next offseason.

 

 

Worse comes to worse, Bombers lose Willy to 2016 free-agency. Marve wouldn't commit here and wanting to exhaust his NFL options. Brohm might take the same route. And we end up with Portish.

 

...FINALLY!!!!!!!!!

[mbrg]

 

 

If Willy gets hurt early in the year, would you rather he was making 400K or 250K?  (Not sure he can even make that if he can't make his bonuses).

 

That's just a silly game to play.  If we played that game 2 months ago, why sign Stanley Bryant, cause he might get hurt.  Go with the smart money, start Taormina and save 80 grand.

 

What a silly answer.  Bryant is a known upgrade over January and we sorely needed O line upgrades.  Well worth the money especially over a guy who shouldn't be starting in the first place.  Willy's a sophomore starter who was great for the first 5 games then looked like a rookie for the rest of the season.  If he was one of the top 2 QB's in the league, we'd not be having this discussion.  BTW:  The point I was trying to make, which went over your head, is that we have a lot more on the line if we give Willy his 150K raise, 100K of it as a signing bonus than we do if we simply wait and let him earn his raise. 

 

 

Good point.  If only Willy was an upgrade over Max Hall, I'd be able to counter it.  What a bummer for me...

[ALuCsRED]

I think you guys are missing the fact that the CFL is a this year right now league.  The Bombers are hosting the cup, and want to play in the cup.  If they like what they see of Willy, they can give him that $100K or $200K signing bonus right after the season is over (when they actually know where they stand in relation to the salary cap).

 

Willy is "our guy", signed a contract when he came over to be "our guy", and will sign again when the time is right to be "the guy" for the future.

[TBURGESS]

GBill... It's a 150K raise, not $50K.  I'd give him a $50K raise to sign him to an extension and I'm sure Walters would too.  It's not just amount, it's also about how much is up front money, how much is base and how much is bonuses.  

 

Mike... You and I both know that Marve doesn't have a hope of making the NFL next year unless he plays a significant amount of time this year AND plays lights out football.  IF those two things were to happen, we wouldn't want to pay Willy 400K to sit on the bench AND we'd want to lock down Marve, not Willy. BTW:Brohm's the #2 guy so he'd have to fail before Marve got playing time too.

 

mbrg.... We aren't talking about last year so Max Hall doesn't have anything to do with this thread.  We are talking about this year and we are all hoping (but don't know) that Willy will be better than he was last year.  This years Willy isn't a known upgrade over last years Willy.

 

Are folks really worried that if we don't sign Willy to a big contract this year, some other team will want to pay him even more next year and we will lose him or have to pay him even more?  Seems to me like a lot of very good things for Willy will have line up to make that scenario work out for him.