I didn't think we had a thread for this. 

Is Trudeau this out of touch or does he just not care?

 

16 hours ago, Atomic said:

There is nothing wrong with FPtP, lefties just don't like it because it splits their vote between NDP and Liberals.  Didn't see them complaining when it was killing the Conservatives during the PC/Reform/Canadian Alliance split years.

This meme needs to die. The Liberals are not a left wing party. They are the very definition of a middle of the road party. Campaign on the left govern on the right. They have more common ground with the conservatives than they do with the NDP. The fact of the matter is that NDP supporters are just desperate to pretend that they are not a fringe party. They'e the ones that are out in left field while the Conservatives and Liberals are battling over the middle ground. If you vote Liberals thinking it's going to be in any way similar to the NDP you're gonna have a bad time. With the Liberals and Conservatives you're going to get the same basic style of government, just the Liberals might make some more noises about social progress where as the Conservatives are busy trying to get their idiot base to keep quiet about their social conservatism because they don't really want to go down those roads but will throw them the odd bone. 

45 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

As I recall JT promised smaller deficits..."reasonable" deficits leading to a balanced budget and then immediately broke that promise.  But his promise was not realistic at all.  They chose a number they felt Canadians could live with knowing they'd never hit it but as a new government they'd blame the old government anyway.

I really liked the bait and switch they pulled on traditional NDP supporters with their promise to reform the electoral system.  The NDP supporters totally got sucked in on that one.  Justin never to my knowledge said that he would switch to the flawed PR system, just that he would reform the system.  Then he totally pulled the whole thing off the table.  Brilliant short-term strategy but will the traditional NDP support go back to the NDP?  That's the question.

21 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

This meme needs to die. The Liberals are not a left wing party. They are the very definition of a middle of the road party. Campaign on the left govern on the right. They have more common ground with the conservatives than they do with the NDP. The fact of the matter is that NDP supporters are just desperate to pretend that they are not a fringe party. They'e the ones that are out in left field while the Conservatives and Liberals are battling over the middle ground. If you vote Liberals thinking it's going to be in any way similar to the NDP you're gonna have a bad time. With the Liberals and Conservatives you're going to get the same basic style of government, just the Liberals might make some more noises about social progress where as the Conservatives are busy trying to get their idiot base to keep quiet about their social conservatism because they don't really want to go down those roads but will throw them the odd bone. 

Liberals govern on the right??  When??  I must have missed that because I see enormous deficit increases and tax grabs???

Just now, Atomic said:

Liberals govern on the right??  When??  I must have missed that because I see enormous deficit increases and tax grabs???

Enormous deficits are a conservative thing. 

Just now, Atomic said:

Liberals govern on the right??  When??  I must have missed that because I see enormous deficit increases and tax grabs???

I consider the Liberals more centrist than left, although the current gov't has moved them further left than they were under Chretien/Martin.

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

Enormous deficits are a conservative thing. 

That's just completely false.  Why would you say such an obviously untrue thing?

Just now, Atomic said:

That's just completely false.  Why would you say such an obviously untrue thing?

Evidence. Endless, endless evidence. 

26 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

 With the Liberals and Conservatives you're going to get the same basic style of government, just the Liberals might make some more noises about social progress where as the Conservatives are busy trying to get their idiot base to keep quiet about their social conservatism because they don't really want to go down those roads but will throw them the odd bone. 

Agreed. The far right members in the Conservative party really hurt them.

Just now, JCon said:

Evidence. Endless, endless evidence. 

As shown by your 2 evidence-free posts

Just now, Atomic said:

As shown by your 2 evidence-free posts

Recent evidence:  

Harper had a surplus when he came into office. Then, Harper ran 6 straight deficits. 

 

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

Recent evidence:  

Harper had a surplus when he came into office. Then, Harper ran 6 straight deficits. 

 

Mulroney ran 8 straight deficits. 

Yeah fixing all the Liberal ****-ups!

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

Yeah fixing all the Liberal ****-ups!

Yeah, it's always someone else's fault. 

Harper was handed a surplus but turned it into a deficit. Mulroney did nothing to pull them out of it. 

 

Conservative governments love deficits because they can blame everything on the previous government. 

Just now, JCon said:

Yeah, it's always someone else's fault. 

Harper was handed a surplus but turned it into a deficit. Mulroney did nothing to pull them out of it. 

Conservative governments love deficits because they can blame everything on the previous government. 

You mean when PET came in with a 667M deficit and left with a 32.4 B deficit?  You're going to blame Mulroney for that?  PET almost bankrupted the nation.

Harper came in in the black, survived a global recession, and left in the black.  He did his job.

And now JT is screwing us again.

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

Yeah, it's always someone else's fault. 

Harper was handed a surplus but turned it into a deficit. Mulroney did nothing to pull them out of it. 

 

Conservative governments love deficits because they can blame everything on the previous government. 

Yeah let's not pretend that there wasn't a massive global recession at the time. Not to mention he was in a minority situation and had to pander to the left with some spending to keep the government going. 

 

It's never black and white with deficits and budgets and honestly too much is made of deficits from year to year. 

22 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Liberals govern on the right??  When??  I must have missed that because I see enormous deficit increases and tax grabs???

Well they did cut the corporate tax rates, which is a pretty right wing thing to do. Like I said, they are pretty lock step with the conservatives on most economic issues. 

 

4 minutes ago, Atomic said:

You mean when PET came in with a 667M deficit and left with a 32.4 B deficit?  You're going to blame Mulroney for that?  PET almost bankrupted the nation.

Harper came in in the black, survived a global recession, and left in the black.  He did his job.

And now JT is screwing us again.

Mulroney took a 37B deficit and turned it into a.... 39B deficit over 8 years. Again, it's always someone else's fault. 

We can always just look to the Liberals stated economic policy:

"The budget will balance itself."

3 minutes ago, Atomic said:

You mean when PET came in with a 667M deficit and left with a 32.4 B deficit?  You're going to blame Mulroney for that?  PET almost bankrupted the nation.

 

Mulroney added over $300B to the national debt. Chretien and Martin did a  good job cleaning up his mess and have a better fiscal record than anybody in recent history.

 

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

We can always just look to the Liberals stated economic policy:

"The budget will balance itself."

Which, of course, if you understand government budgeting and the full context of the quote, then you would understand this to be exactly what Harper preached during the recession. 

 

Stimulus spending will increase revenue and increased revenue will balance the budget. 

3 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

Mulroney added over $300B to the national debt. Chretien and Martin did a  good job cleaning up his mess and have a better fiscal record than anybody in recent history.

 

Yes they did.  I consider Chretien the best prime minister of my lifetime.  It's too bad they were so corrupt at the same time.

38 minutes ago, JCon said:

Recent evidence:  

Harper had a surplus when he came into office. Then, Harper ran 6 straight deficits. 

 

Again (tiresome since talked about in this very thread), Global recession, minority government and an opposition demanding larger deficits.

 

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Again (tiresome since talked about in this very thread), Global recession, minority government and an opposition demanding larger deficits.

Again, tiresome, but always someone else's fault. Harper made his own decisions. 

Just now, JCon said:

 

Again, tiresome, but always someone else's fault. Harper made his own decisions. 

Oh I see what you did there.  Okay, if you dont want to have a mature discussion, dont take part.  If Harper's deficits really bother you so much, you must have been irate at the opposition for wanting even larger ones.  Thank goodness Harper held them in check ;-)

By the way, the "someone else's fault" thing is usually a lefty mantra.

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

Oh I see what you did there.  Okay, if you dont want to have a mature discussion, dont take part.  If Harper's deficits really bother you so much, you must have been irate at the opposition for wanting even larger ones.  Thank goodness Harper held them in check ;-)

By the way, the "someone else's fault" thing is usually a lefty mantra.

I don't have problems with Harper's deficits. At the time, I felt that they were necessary. I don't think deficit spending today is necessary.

I have a problem with the idea that conservative government's are anti-deficit, when the evidence shows they are not. I think conservatives (not conservative gov'ts) are anti-deficit. 

 

My beefs with Harper were primarily how he operated and his decision around taxes. 

I never felt boutique tax credits were the way to go and didn't understand the need to cut the progressive consumption tax (GST). I would have preferred to see income tax lowered and the basic personal exemption raised.