Yourface

Definitely Ottawa right now. I've always been one to cheer for the underdog.

Have you not seen Willy play at all during the second half of this season? He's been putrid. It can't be THAT hard for Marve to at least be as good as Willy's been lately. And you wonder how Marve can benefit from getting these reps? I'll just reiterate what I said earlier because I think it explains it pretty well... Willy has already played 16 games this year, and will not benefit from playing in one more meaningless game, especially if he's ailing. He's probably already looking forward to the off-season. Marve, on the other hand, could certainly use the experience as he hasn't played a full game yet. Getting that type of experience would allow him to go into the off-season knowing what he needs to improve on and what to expect next year. Iso thinks you're tacky. I knew someone would call me out on that His post was just extremely long and cumbersome. I realize now that I probably shouldn't have erased most of it, but I think there's a big difference in the motives behind our actions here. You deleted three or four lines of text only to ADD four lines that contain the words "delete." While I tried to eliminate some of the cumbersomeness in this thread, you simply did it to suit your point of view.

Have you not seen Willy play at all during the second half of this season? He's been putrid. It can't be THAT hard for Marve to at least be as good as Willy's been lately. And you wonder how Marve can benefit from getting these reps? I'll just reiterate what I said earlier because I think it explains it pretty well... Willy has already played 16 games this year, and will not benefit from playing in one more meaningless game, especially if he's ailing. He's probably already looking forward to the off-season. Marve, on the other hand, could certainly use the experience as he hasn't played a full game yet. Getting that type of experience would allow him to go into the off-season knowing what he needs to improve on and what to expect next year.

The Riders were 8-2 with Durant throwing for 172 yards a game, they've been 1-6 without him while averaging something like 225 yards a game passing. As Yourface already stated, the correlation between throwing for a ton of yards and winning football games isn't there. sure it is, but 225 yards isn't throwing for a ton of yards, in fact it's a pretty poor total. With Willy we're not talking about a guy who threw for 5000 yards either, 3500 yards is a good season for a qb in the CFL but it's not an outstanding season either. I think some people are skewing things way way too much. You show me a qb that throws for 350 yards a game consistently though and I'll show you a correlation between winning and losing. Stats are a measure of what teams accomplish, any good stat correlates to winning and any bad stat correlates to losing, that's just the nature of them. Not necessarily when it comes to passing yards, as I've already shown. No you took a limited sample size and drew conclusions that fit your line of thinking. One season is hardly a representative sample especially when this season has been as odd as it has with wins and losses for everyone. It's nothing to do with the number of tds thrown vs. ints, it simply comes down to turnovers and teams that don't take care of the football lose. You'd be further ahead simply saying ints are a better measure of a qb. You look at big picture sample sizes and you'll see that better stats = more wins, that's just inarguable because putting up passing yards means your offense is moving the ball and more than likely scoring points. You keep insisting passing yards are over rated, they're not. Not at all, but like any statistic it's just one thing to look at. I don't know why you feel the need to try and put some above the other... oh yeah, you're trying to crap on Drew Willy that's why. Well of course... And throwing interceptions means you're giving the ball away while coming away with no points of your own. But anyway, one full season isn't a limited sample size lol. If you're so convinced that this year was an outlier in regards to the stats I posted, please present me with proof of your conviction. Come back to me after having calculated the same type of data for the three years prior to this one, and then I may eat my words. You're obviously grasping at straws here, because you can't even provide stats nor pertinent facts to support your argument. Here's another passage of yours that I find amusing: "It simply comes down to turnovers and teams that don't take care of the football lose." That's EXACTLY what I've been trying to say... Willy hasn't taken good care of the football this year, and it's part of the reason why he's lost so many games despite his high passing yards total. Of course there are other factors involved (for which he's not to blame), but that's one of the main issues.

Really? Is it that ridiculous to think that passing yards are overrated when evaluating a quarterback? Or that Willy needs to make better decisions with the ball in his hands? yes. Passing yards are one of the biggest numbers for a qb, the others on that level are going to be completion % and tds in my mind. You want a qb who can complete passes and throw tds. Yardage just goes along with the completing passes. ... And what you DON'T want is someone who throws a lot of interceptions. Passing yards tend to be the first thing that the average fan looks at when evaluating a quarterback, even though there are clearly better methods of evaluation. People who throw the ball a lot, throw more pick's. The same 4 qb's that have the most attempts are listed in different order in the ones with the most int's. Throwing the ball has its risk's. If the bombers offensive strategy is to throw a lot, then the int numbers will stay higher than normal or higher than teams that don't throw as much. Willy most picks, 3rd in attempts. glenn 2nd in picks 4th in attempts. ray most attempts 3rd in picks. burris 4th in picks 2nd in attempts. same 4 guys in yardage. ray, willy, glenn, burris. A QB who throws a lot should also score more than a few touchdowns. That's why the TD-INT ratio lends to a relatively fair evaluation. As I've already shown, there's much more correlation between the TD-INT ratio and the outcome of a game than between total passing yards and the outcome of a game. Why can't everyone simply agree that Willy needs to improve his decision-making?

Of course passing yards have some bearing on the outcome of a game... But again, the point we're making is that passing yards are overrated in the grand scheme of things, and that other factors such as the TD-INT ratio plays a greater part in winning and losing, as well as in evaluating a quarterback. Passing yards are to a QB as rushing yards are to a running back. That's as simple as it can be related. We don't have to over-analyze every statistic. Agreed... Yards per carry are a much more meaningful stat than total rushing yards.

Stats are taken from games, not the other way around. In other words, you cannot say that running the ball 60% passing will win a game for you, but you can say in a particular game it did. Stats are pliable, you can conform them to any argument as seen fit. And as to the statement that there is no correlation between throwing for a ton of yards and not winning….I don't agree. Generally speaking, in the CFL, the team that has the better passing statistics has a better chance of winning the game. Of course passing yards have some bearing on the outcome of a game... But again, the point we're making is that passing yards are overrated in the grand scheme of things, and that other factors such as the TD-INT ratio play a greater part in winning and losing, as well as in evaluating a quarterback.

And a good portion of the blame has to fall on the QB for throwing back-breaking interceptions.

Really? Is it that ridiculous to think that passing yards are overrated when evaluating a quarterback? Or that Willy needs to make better decisions with the ball in his hands? yes. Passing yards are one of the biggest numbers for a qb, the others on that level are going to be completion % and tds in my mind. You want a qb who can complete passes and throw tds. Yardage just goes along with the completing passes. ... And what you DON'T want is someone who throws a lot of interceptions. Passing yards tend to be the first thing that the average fan looks at when evaluating a quarterback, even though there are clearly better methods of evaluation.

The Riders were 8-2 with Durant throwing for 172 yards a game, they've been 1-6 without him while averaging something like 225 yards a game passing. As Yourface already stated, the correlation between throwing for a ton of yards and winning football games isn't there. sure it is, but 225 yards isn't throwing for a ton of yards, in fact it's a pretty poor total. With Willy we're not talking about a guy who threw for 5000 yards either, 3500 yards is a good season for a qb in the CFL but it's not an outstanding season either. I think some people are skewing things way way too much. You show me a qb that throws for 350 yards a game consistently though and I'll show you a correlation between winning and losing. Stats are a measure of what teams accomplish, any good stat correlates to winning and any bad stat correlates to losing, that's just the nature of them. Not necessarily when it comes to passing yards, as I've already shown.

Really? Is it that ridiculous to think that passing yards are overrated when evaluating a quarterback? Or that Willy needs to make better decisions with the ball in his hands?

You're missing the point entirely... Goltz was absolutely horrendous, and never showed near the amount of potential Willy has so far. Along with a completion percentage of only 56%, he had a -5 TD-INT ratio in only a few games last year. I don't understand how the guy managed to hang around for as long as he did.

not always. Yards correlate with moving the ball and TOP and all that. As I pointed out, if a team moves into the redzone but opts to run the ball into the endzone then the td-int ratio isn't all that important right? You're just trying to pick and choose what you want to use. Everything needs context. Quite honestly you can assess the qb performance for this team without using any stats. The eye test is still good enough for football. These would be today's standings if teams were placed based on passing yards. West: East: 1. WPG 4,276 1. TOR 4,461 2. BC 4,009 2. HAM 4,422 3. EDM 3,848 3. OTT 3,788 4. CGY 3,660 4. MTL 3,234 5. SSK 3,379 And if they were drafted in accordance with the TD-INT ratio... West: East: 1. CGY +14 1. TOR +13 2. EDM +7 2. HAM +3 3. BC +7 3. MTL 0 4. SSK -1 4. OTT -1 5. WPG -3 To me it seems that the TD-INT ratio paints a much more accurate picture. The only team that is misplaced is Montreal (who have been overachieving this year IMO) That is more to do with the overall turnover amount than td-int ratio of a quarterback. There is a well established trend in the CFL of teams that turn over the ball more lose more. You are trying to assign too much importance in winning and losing to quarterbacks I think. Willys numbers all told pretty accurately describe the Bombers season. Team that can't run so the qb has to pass more, but some mistakes made as a result which have held the team back from winning more games. Guy has played well though despite that. There are a lot of factors contributing to his play. That lack of a running game is one. How do the win/loss records look if you base it on total offensive yards? Some teams do rely a lot on the running game, thinking Calgary and Saskatchewan in particular. The point that was brought up initially is that passing yards are overrated, and that other factors such as the TD-INT ratio play a much greater part in winning and losing. I think it's a valid point. As for what's in bold, I don't see how the overall turnover rate is a factor in evaluating a quarterback. That's why I only included plays that do involve the QB (TDs and INTs). A quarterback has no control over a fumble committed by a running back or a receiver. I agree that the lack of a running game may have contributed to his lacklustre play (though he did have his worst game when Cotton rushed for 130 yards), but nevertheless, Willy needs to learn how to manage the ball better.

not always. Yards correlate with moving the ball and TOP and all that. As I pointed out, if a team moves into the redzone but opts to run the ball into the endzone then the td-int ratio isn't all that important right? You're just trying to pick and choose what you want to use. Everything needs context. Quite honestly you can assess the qb performance for this team without using any stats. The eye test is still good enough for football. These would be today's standings if teams were placed based on passing yards. West: East: 1. WPG 4,276 1. TOR 4,461 2. BC 4,009 2. HAM 4,422 3. EDM 3,848 3. OTT 3,788 4. CGY 3,660 4. MTL 3,234 5. SSK 3,379 And if they were drafted in accordance with the TD-INT ratio... West: East: 1. CGY +14 1. TOR +13 2. EDM +7 2. HAM +3 3. BC +7 3. MTL 0 4. SSK -1 4. OTT -1 5. WPG -3 To me it seems that the TD-INT ratio paints a much more accurate picture. The only team that is misplaced is Montreal (who have been overachieving this year IMO)

Agreed, but the fact remains that the TD-INT ratio is a greater contributor to wins and losses than passing yards.

Passing yards is the most overrated stat that there is. Right, because all you need to do is go through your progressions, make the correct read, deliver a good ball, all the while having upwards of four or more people trying to take your head off every single play, and in the process hoping your receiver does his job properly by running the correct route and catching the ball while someone else is trying to take his head off as well or deflect the ball to prevent the completion....Unbelievable. I think he has a point. The first thing that people usually look at to judge a quarterback is passing yards, when there are other factors that play a greater part in winning and losing... Such as the TD-INT ratio. Passing yards also depend on the frequency at which a team runs the ball. It's almost pointless to talk about passing yards without context.

I'm not sure that this post is directed at me but I suspect it might be... I haven't criticized Willy all year until this last game, and I realize now that the vitriol that I've expressed should probably be directed at the coaching staff more so than Willy himself, as they are the source of my frustration. Anyhow, I apologize if my recent comments have made this board harder to read.

Duly noted.

100% bullshit. He's had what? 20 starts in his career? That's barely over 1 full season. He would absolutely benefit from more experience. People have to stop thinking that he was anywhere close to a finished product when he came here. He is still a guy trying to establish himself. MOAR experience is going to benefit him. Of course more experience, over the long haul, is going to be beneficial. But again, this is a meaningless game at the end of the season. It's basically a pre-season game that doesn't serve a purpose. I just don't see how playing in this one game is going to help him grow in any way. I would not disagree with you if a win meant something in the standings, but as it stands, I don't see value in Willy starting, and getting killed in the backfield again. Just my opinion. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. I respect your viewpoint.

Fair enough... I don't question Willy's character. But it's not like this was a one-time occurrence. He's been getting hit hard all year, and has gotten progressively worse at the same time. Again, in my opinion, Willy has nothing to gain from this game, whereas Marve could benefit from those same reps.

100% bullshit. He's had what? 20 starts in his career? That's barely over 1 full season. He would absolutely benefit from more experience. People have to stop thinking that he was anywhere close to a finished product when he came here. He is still a guy trying to establish himself. MOAR experience is going to benefit him. Of course more experience, over the long haul, is going to be beneficial. But again, this is a meaningless game at the end of the season. It's basically a pre-season game that doesn't serve a purpose. I just don't see how playing in this one game is going to help him grow in any way. I would not disagree with you if a win meant something in the standings, but as it stands, I don't see value in Willy starting, and getting killed in the backfield again. Just my opinion.

I agree. A lot of us tend to be too condescending towards one another around here (can't say I'm not guilty of that sometimes).

Willy has already played 16 games this year, and will not benefit from playing in one more meaningless game, especially if he's ailing. Simple as that. But OF COURSE he'll want to start this week. Every athlete hates the thought of someone taking over his spot, especially if the place-holder shows tremendous potential. Marve, on the other hand, could certainly use the experience as he hasn't played a full game yet. Getting that type of experience would allow him to go into the off-season knowing what he needs to improve on and what to expect next year.

Yes, of couse he does. But the Bombers don't. Willy getting 1% better has more value to this franchise than Marve getting 10% better. Very deceitful of you to remove the most relevant part of my post. Willy has absolutely nothing to gain from this game, especially if he's already ailing. ? It's right up there for everyone to read, it meanders thru a couple of different thoughts that just weren't relevant to my point. Do you re-read every original post thru all the re-quotes? That's pretty sweet, having that much time to kill. Willy has less to gain, not "absolutely nothing". That is because he is further along in his development. He's not at the end of it. And every gain he makes now will be incredibly important in the future. I don't think there's anything to gain from playing one more meaningless game at the end of the season. He's already played 16 games this year, and is probably looking forward to the off-season. If you don't think there's anything to gain, then why are you so invested in who starts and who doesn't? Because I believe Marve at least has something to gain, plus I firmly believe that he gives us a better chance to win. We haven't won in so long that I've almost forgotten what it feels like.

He's been responding to a crappy game by playing more crappy games after crappy games for two months now. Willy deserves to sit, and probably shouldn't risk further injury.