Yourface

You're missing the point entirely... Goltz was absolutely horrendous, and never showed near the amount of potential Willy has so far. Along with a completion percentage of only 56%, he had a -5 TD-INT ratio in only a few games last year. I don't understand how the guy managed to hang around for as long as he did.

not always. Yards correlate with moving the ball and TOP and all that. As I pointed out, if a team moves into the redzone but opts to run the ball into the endzone then the td-int ratio isn't all that important right? You're just trying to pick and choose what you want to use. Everything needs context. Quite honestly you can assess the qb performance for this team without using any stats. The eye test is still good enough for football. These would be today's standings if teams were placed based on passing yards. West: East: 1. WPG 4,276 1. TOR 4,461 2. BC 4,009 2. HAM 4,422 3. EDM 3,848 3. OTT 3,788 4. CGY 3,660 4. MTL 3,234 5. SSK 3,379 And if they were drafted in accordance with the TD-INT ratio... West: East: 1. CGY +14 1. TOR +13 2. EDM +7 2. HAM +3 3. BC +7 3. MTL 0 4. SSK -1 4. OTT -1 5. WPG -3 To me it seems that the TD-INT ratio paints a much more accurate picture. The only team that is misplaced is Montreal (who have been overachieving this year IMO) That is more to do with the overall turnover amount than td-int ratio of a quarterback. There is a well established trend in the CFL of teams that turn over the ball more lose more. You are trying to assign too much importance in winning and losing to quarterbacks I think. Willys numbers all told pretty accurately describe the Bombers season. Team that can't run so the qb has to pass more, but some mistakes made as a result which have held the team back from winning more games. Guy has played well though despite that. There are a lot of factors contributing to his play. That lack of a running game is one. How do the win/loss records look if you base it on total offensive yards? Some teams do rely a lot on the running game, thinking Calgary and Saskatchewan in particular. The point that was brought up initially is that passing yards are overrated, and that other factors such as the TD-INT ratio play a much greater part in winning and losing. I think it's a valid point. As for what's in bold, I don't see how the overall turnover rate is a factor in evaluating a quarterback. That's why I only included plays that do involve the QB (TDs and INTs). A quarterback has no control over a fumble committed by a running back or a receiver. I agree that the lack of a running game may have contributed to his lacklustre play (though he did have his worst game when Cotton rushed for 130 yards), but nevertheless, Willy needs to learn how to manage the ball better.

not always. Yards correlate with moving the ball and TOP and all that. As I pointed out, if a team moves into the redzone but opts to run the ball into the endzone then the td-int ratio isn't all that important right? You're just trying to pick and choose what you want to use. Everything needs context. Quite honestly you can assess the qb performance for this team without using any stats. The eye test is still good enough for football. These would be today's standings if teams were placed based on passing yards. West: East: 1. WPG 4,276 1. TOR 4,461 2. BC 4,009 2. HAM 4,422 3. EDM 3,848 3. OTT 3,788 4. CGY 3,660 4. MTL 3,234 5. SSK 3,379 And if they were drafted in accordance with the TD-INT ratio... West: East: 1. CGY +14 1. TOR +13 2. EDM +7 2. HAM +3 3. BC +7 3. MTL 0 4. SSK -1 4. OTT -1 5. WPG -3 To me it seems that the TD-INT ratio paints a much more accurate picture. The only team that is misplaced is Montreal (who have been overachieving this year IMO)

Agreed, but the fact remains that the TD-INT ratio is a greater contributor to wins and losses than passing yards.

Passing yards is the most overrated stat that there is. Right, because all you need to do is go through your progressions, make the correct read, deliver a good ball, all the while having upwards of four or more people trying to take your head off every single play, and in the process hoping your receiver does his job properly by running the correct route and catching the ball while someone else is trying to take his head off as well or deflect the ball to prevent the completion....Unbelievable. I think he has a point. The first thing that people usually look at to judge a quarterback is passing yards, when there are other factors that play a greater part in winning and losing... Such as the TD-INT ratio. Passing yards also depend on the frequency at which a team runs the ball. It's almost pointless to talk about passing yards without context.

I'm not sure that this post is directed at me but I suspect it might be... I haven't criticized Willy all year until this last game, and I realize now that the vitriol that I've expressed should probably be directed at the coaching staff more so than Willy himself, as they are the source of my frustration. Anyhow, I apologize if my recent comments have made this board harder to read.

Duly noted.

100% bullshit. He's had what? 20 starts in his career? That's barely over 1 full season. He would absolutely benefit from more experience. People have to stop thinking that he was anywhere close to a finished product when he came here. He is still a guy trying to establish himself. MOAR experience is going to benefit him. Of course more experience, over the long haul, is going to be beneficial. But again, this is a meaningless game at the end of the season. It's basically a pre-season game that doesn't serve a purpose. I just don't see how playing in this one game is going to help him grow in any way. I would not disagree with you if a win meant something in the standings, but as it stands, I don't see value in Willy starting, and getting killed in the backfield again. Just my opinion. Your opinion is bad and you should feel bad. I respect your viewpoint.

Fair enough... I don't question Willy's character. But it's not like this was a one-time occurrence. He's been getting hit hard all year, and has gotten progressively worse at the same time. Again, in my opinion, Willy has nothing to gain from this game, whereas Marve could benefit from those same reps.

100% bullshit. He's had what? 20 starts in his career? That's barely over 1 full season. He would absolutely benefit from more experience. People have to stop thinking that he was anywhere close to a finished product when he came here. He is still a guy trying to establish himself. MOAR experience is going to benefit him. Of course more experience, over the long haul, is going to be beneficial. But again, this is a meaningless game at the end of the season. It's basically a pre-season game that doesn't serve a purpose. I just don't see how playing in this one game is going to help him grow in any way. I would not disagree with you if a win meant something in the standings, but as it stands, I don't see value in Willy starting, and getting killed in the backfield again. Just my opinion.

I agree. A lot of us tend to be too condescending towards one another around here (can't say I'm not guilty of that sometimes).

Willy has already played 16 games this year, and will not benefit from playing in one more meaningless game, especially if he's ailing. Simple as that. But OF COURSE he'll want to start this week. Every athlete hates the thought of someone taking over his spot, especially if the place-holder shows tremendous potential. Marve, on the other hand, could certainly use the experience as he hasn't played a full game yet. Getting that type of experience would allow him to go into the off-season knowing what he needs to improve on and what to expect next year.

Yes, of couse he does. But the Bombers don't. Willy getting 1% better has more value to this franchise than Marve getting 10% better. Very deceitful of you to remove the most relevant part of my post. Willy has absolutely nothing to gain from this game, especially if he's already ailing. ? It's right up there for everyone to read, it meanders thru a couple of different thoughts that just weren't relevant to my point. Do you re-read every original post thru all the re-quotes? That's pretty sweet, having that much time to kill. Willy has less to gain, not "absolutely nothing". That is because he is further along in his development. He's not at the end of it. And every gain he makes now will be incredibly important in the future. I don't think there's anything to gain from playing one more meaningless game at the end of the season. He's already played 16 games this year, and is probably looking forward to the off-season. If you don't think there's anything to gain, then why are you so invested in who starts and who doesn't? Because I believe Marve at least has something to gain, plus I firmly believe that he gives us a better chance to win. We haven't won in so long that I've almost forgotten what it feels like.

He's been responding to a crappy game by playing more crappy games after crappy games for two months now. Willy deserves to sit, and probably shouldn't risk further injury.

Yes, of couse he does. But the Bombers don't. Willy getting 1% better has more value to this franchise than Marve getting 10% better. Very deceitful of you to remove the most relevant part of my post. Willy has absolutely nothing to gain from this game, especially if he's already ailing. ? It's right up there for everyone to read, it meanders thru a couple of different thoughts that just weren't relevant to my point. Do you re-read every original post thru all the re-quotes? That's pretty sweet, having that much time to kill. Willy has less to gain, not "absolutely nothing". That is because he is further along in his development. He's not at the end of it. And every gain he makes now will be incredibly important in the future. I don't think there's anything to gain from playing one more meaningless game at the end of the season. He's already played 16 games this year, and is probably looking forward to the off-season.

Yes, of couse he does. But the Bombers don't. Willy getting 1% better has more value to this franchise than Marve getting 10% better. Very deceitful of you to remove the most relevant part of my post. Willy has absolutely nothing to gain from this game, especially if he's already ailing.

Good job neglecting to mention his 32 rushing yards... But regardless, you can't draw any conclusions from 10 pass attempts, especially when three of those came in the last minute, while in a 10 point deficit. The offence managed to score two touchdowns and should have added a field goal during the 23 minutes that Marve was at the helm. Plus, he actually managed to throw the ball away once or twice, which Willy is seemingly unable to do. And please don't try to say that his offensive line was any better than Willy's this past week-end, because it wasn't. It's also worth mentioning that he's looked good all year, ever since he first partook in Bombers mini-camp.

Drew Willy hasn't been half-decent in approximately two months. What makes you think he'll suddenly turn it around this week?

Serious question: Is this your first year following the Bombers? Because the things you are suggesting are the exact things that have doomed the Bombers to failure at the QB and Coaching spots for years. Honestly, this city might be suffering from it's worst and most irrational case of "backup QB envy" we've ever seen. We finally have a star in the making and we have multiple people clamoring to sit him for the the greenest backup we've trotted out there yet. It's like Bomber fans are addicted to throwing unproven quarterbacks into the fire and hoping for a miracle. Except this time we already have a good one! We don't have to ruin anymore young QBs people!!!! Just once we can let a young guy develop and JUST MAYBE he'll actually be ready when it's time to give him meaningful playing time. You know, like what Saskatchewan did with Drew Willy for us. Unless the plan is to keep on trying new quarterbacks until we find one who is perfect every single game. In that case, sit Willy and let's try out Marve. You're absolutely dead on. It can't have been that long that people have forgotten how this works. The backup QB envy around here, quite frankly, is disgusting and as a fan, I'm pretty embarrassed by our fanbase when they talk about this. Robert Marve, as much as I like him and think he's got the right tools in his toolbox, came into a game in garbage time and completed half his passes but ran around enough to make people stumble over themselves to hop on his bandwagon. It wasn't even that he played well, he just played DIFFERENT and people equated different to better because what Willy was doing wasn't working. It's like people have forgotten that young quarterbacks, especially those saddled with a poor supporting cast, are going to go through ups and downs. Especially when that supporting cast is allowing said young quarterback to get demolished on a weekly basis. The comparison to Joey Elliott? Embarrassing. Joey Elliott, as much as I liked him, put two quality games on his resume. Drew Willy, on the other hand, was probably the favorite to win the MOP award through the first third of the season. Two very different situations. The reality is this - Drew Willy is QB1 now and he will be QB1 next year. The point of this Saturday's game is to gain as much value from it as we can and the reps and experience for Willy are of more value to us than the reps and experience for Marve right now. If Willy was a 5 year veteran, everyone here would be right in their demands to see Marve start. But for all intents and purposes, Willy is a rookie. At least a rookie starter. He needs the reps, just like he needs to be able to be given the leash that Mike O'Shea has afforded him. Do I wish Willy had been pulled mid-game sometimes? Yeah. I get that concept, because sometimes taking a seat to collect yourself is what is needed. But with the starting job comes the first team reps in practice. The reps with your receivers, guys like Justin Wilson who need that chemistry to develop with their QB1 for next year. Going into next year on a positive note is important, but it's important to make sure it's positive all around, not just in the win column (which is basically one of the last things that matters at this point) If anyone thinks that by having Marve start this week, it means anything for next year, they're sorely mistaken. Marve could throw for 400 yards and 5 touchdowns and all it means is that the media will have some ammunition for when they conjure up their articles this offseason about a QB controversy. Willy is still QB1 going into next year, he's earned the reps, he deserves the reps and even if he's dinged up, beaten down and it ends up in a big loss for us, it's still all part of the process we need to be prepared to go through as fans. Because the end result will be a properly developed star QB. Period. How can anyone gain chemistry with Willy when he's playing as badly as he is right now? He's clearly not playing to the fullest of his abilities, and he's probably not going to be NEAR the same player on opening night next year (at least I hope not). Beyond that, I strongly doubt that the chemistry that is so bound to develop in your eyes, will carry over into next year, 8 months from now. Robert Marve has much more to gain from these reps than Willy does.

Well I suppose, but Willy still has a lot to prove before being labelled a "franchise QB" in my opinion.

I'm assuming this comment is directed at me... I never said Willy sucks. I said he's been awful in the second half of the season, which is 100% true. Based on this downward spiral he's been in, I'm fairly confident that Marve gives us a better chance to win at this point. Furthermore, my belief that Marve is a capable quarterback stems from more than just one quarter of football. He evidently has potential, as shown in mini-camp, in preseason, in practice, and again in limited regular season action. He could stand to gain some experience, and as such, I'm somewhat disconcerted in O'Shea's decision to start Willy this week. It was directed at no one in particular. A young QB with little experience, on whom the opposition now has some film and can game plan against him. I'm not an expert by any means, but I think Calgary would draw up a plan that forces him to stay in the pocket. Do really think a team with a good defense and solid coaching would him let ad-lib the way he did? Don't you remember what happened when Buck was forced to stay in the pocket? We only saw him play a bit more than one quarter so it's hard to say what his limitations are. Surely you can understand my point of view, as I understand yours.

I'm assuming this comment is directed at me... I never said Willy sucks. I said he's been awful in the second half of the season, which is 100% true. Based on this downward spiral he's been in, I'm fairly confident that Marve gives us a better chance to win at this point. Furthermore, my belief that Marve is a capable quarterback stems from more than just one quarter of football. He evidently has potential, as shown in mini-camp, in preseason, in practice, and again in limited regular season action. He could stand to gain some experience, and as such, I'm somewhat disconcerted in O'Shea's decision to start Willy this week.

Aside from the fact that Willy is in his first year as a starter and needs all the reps he can get, and has just shy of seven months to completely recover from whatever ailments he may currently be dealing with after Saturday....agreed completely... I highly doubt that one extra meaningless game at the end of the season is going to do him any good, especially if he's already ailing. On the other hand, I'm sure that Marve, with so little experience, could benefit from getting those same reps. The potential consequences of Willy starting far outweigh the benefits (if there are any) in my opinion.

Very well said. There's absolutely no reason to start Willy this week.

Well I hope Willy plays another stinker this week, just to prevent all you Willy lovers from going into the off-season with a heightened sense of Drew being a sure-fire star in the making. By the way, I still think he can be a good QB, but his season overall has been underwhelming to say the least. I'd rather see what Marve can do than to see Willy get killed in the backfield again this week. In my opinion, at this point in the season, Marve gives us a better chance to win.