Brandon Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 No Bischoff copied and poached all of ECW .... with no ECW their would of been zero attitude era. Had Heyman been given a massive budget , ECW would of been insanely huge. What drove people to watch WCW was that each week they poached a new or former very popular wrestler from WWF and WWF history and it was all about who could they sign next. T U P should know that WCW were throwing insane money to all of the wrestlers up until the end. There is tonnes of shoot interviews with the guys saying it was fantastic and amazing on how much moolah was being thrown at them during that time period by WCW. They were throwing cash at insane things such as having KISS play to introduce the KISS demon wrestler (I believe I read that they paid nearly a million for KISS to play live on the show!). The *only* thing he did that was smart was bring over Nash and Hall. The rest was simply rinse and repeat and was only done because of his massive budget. The great wrestling matches with smaller guys ... stolen from ECW (including the talent) Goldberg.... rip off of Stone Cold and the only guy they didn't have the NWO bury.... Sting .... The Crow Lame personal attacks on Jim Ross.... He created no new stars / gimmicks.... When the NWO became old... he had nothing to offer. He created a million varations of the nWo and nobody cared. By the end I had no idea what the hell red nWo, latino nWo, wolf pac, nWo ... it was confusing. The PPV's were only good because of the Eddie Guerrero , Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio and the other guys who knew how to work a great match. When it came to producing vignettes, story lines , using the heavy weight talent.... WCW was awful. Goldberg was awful on the mic, the Warrior coming back was hilariously bad, David Arquette was the f'ning champ, Jay Leno headlining PPVs, Rick Steiner talking to a chucky doll..... suuuuuuuch bad stuff. And since then he's done nothing in the business and pretty much is a Hogan groupie. Even pre nWo his ideas were lame ... he came up with Glacier, Shark (Earthquake), The Giant being Andre's son and having a monster truck sumo war with Hogan, Ed Leslie and his 10 gimmicks and all of Hogans other buddies coming in and putting on crap shows. Unfortunately for him Hogan is ancient and nobody cares about him anymore so at this point he won't go anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Brandon - what did eric steal from ecw besides talent? Most of the guys who bragged about money were lying. They were well paid yes but wwe was competitive on money by late 97 They filled up the nWo because they were planning an nWo TV show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols. Now there's arguing on a wrestling thread? C'mon guys, really??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols. There is a difference between criticizing someone for things they deserve and criticizing them for things they dont. If you list ten things to be critical of Eric for, I will tell you which ones are true and which ones are false. When dealing with facts, opinion doesnt matter much. Sort of like saying Smackdown's rating are rising when its in comparison to one week ago and three weeks ago they had their lowest rating of the year. If you asked me to list all the things I consider myself an expert on, Id have none. Except wrestling. Opinion is: Eric was a poor booker and a lousy performer (because someone else could say they loved his angles and loved his performances. Facts are things like: turned WCW from a money loser to generating the most revenue of any wrestling company in the history of the sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Can't tell me that Bischoff's input for Raw & Smackdown wouldn't be valuable compared to what they're doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Brandon - what did eric steal from ecw besides talent? Most of the guys who bragged about money were lying. They were well paid yes but wwe was competitive on money by late 97 They filled up the nWo because they were planning an nWo TV show. Off the top of my head... The idea of loading cards with high flyers / great talent in lighter classes (Benoit, Malenko, Mysterio, Psychoasis, Jericho etc...) Stole all the newer edgier gimmicks (Raven + flock, Saturn , Public Enemy) or destroyed good gimmicks like the Sandman. Also misused talent with horrible gimmicks which then turned it around in ECW (Rob Van Dam, Sabu, Steve Austin!!! So many more) They over saturated the nWo because nobody cared anymore and they were desperate to get lightning in a bottle twice! Look at how many people were in the nWo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_World_Order_members He made Kevin Nash a booker ... one of the worst workers and also worst back stage selfish guys in the biz. The nWo was a good idea no doubt about it and getting Turner to put money into bringing Hogan and Macho into WCW was a smart move... but once the nWo ran stale and while WWE was creating new superstars (or poaching ECW) ... WCW created only Goldberg and ran the company into the ground with a bunch of old guys and old gimmicks. When I think of back in the late 90's most of my wrestling memories are WWE and all the random over the top moments and unique angles .... for WCW I just remember nWo and all of the ppvs and storylines blurred together because it was all of the same. To finalize my rant... he made Arquette the champion and had Jay Leno fighting on ppv's!!! COME ON you can't defend that kind of crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigg jay Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ. Possibly but he's still the boss so it falls on him. He gets the credit for the good and the blame for the bad that happens under his watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Brandon, Ill try and reply to each one of your points: WCW had a history of high flyers before ECW. They created the the Light Heavyweight Championship in 1991 as a vehicle for Brian Pillman (and Jushin Liger). And they had a business relationship with New Japan Pro Wrestling which had more traditional "high flyers". Where Eric first saw guys like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio etc, it was a a PPV called When World's Collide featuring talent from AAA (Mexico) and produced by WCW and Eric Bischoff. That PPV was the first real national American exposure for that style of wrestling and those wrestlers. If I recall, Eric wanted to bring in Eddie and Art Barr as a tag team (they were a very good tag team) but Barr died. It is true that Eddie, Malenko, Benoit etc went to ECW and Eddie & Malenko went to WCW about a year later. But Eric wasnt clueless to those guys. Benoit had worked for WCW before (so did Eddie but I think it was before Eric's time). Paul Heyman always knew he'd lose those guys because they were too good to wrestle on the smaller stage of ECW. I dont think it's say Eric stole them from ECW. Because of the relationship with New Japan where those guys also worked, it was probably inevitable they'd work for ECW. Those guys went to WCW when Nitro launched. Eric needed more talent. This was a brand new two hour weekly show. He needed talent. And he wanted talent that was not only different and unique compared to WWE but different compared to most of his upper card which were heavyweights. Raven, for sure, he took him virtually unchanged. But that was not uncommon in wrestling back then where a guy developed a character over years and used that same character wherever he went. ECW was very over-rated to an extent. Raven was a top guy in ECW. A mid card guy in WCW which I think was appropriate. I'd use Mike Awesome as a better example if I was arguing WCW ripped off ECW. But realistically, if WCW ripped off ECW, WWE did so far more. ECW was little more than a development territory. Every one of those guys wanted to go to WCW or WWE to make more money and have a less grueling style. WWE and WCW often went after the same guys (Public Enemy for example). Sandman couldnt be Sandman in WCW. So they gave him a new name and essentially the same gimmick. But Sandman basically sucked and was little more than a great entrance and a less charismatic and talented Steve Austin. As for Austin, both Austin and Eric tell the story that Austin was miserable. He was hurt and Eric had his secretary call him and Austin said tell the MF'er im not home (or something to that effect). So Eric fired him. They both agree Austin deserved to be fired. Keep in mind, in WCW, Austin got a way bigger push than he got in WWE initially. The only reason Austin went to ECW was because he had a non-compete with WCW which wouldnt allow him to go to WWE and he was still injured. WWE dropped the ball with Austin big time and if not for Hunter getting punished in 1996 (allowing Austin to get his spot), we dont know when Austin would have exploded. Yes, he made Kevin Nash booker. And that was an awful decision. But WWE had bad bookers too. But in the late 90's, it was easier to sink a company creatively. Eric tells the story that Nash had always been very creative so he thought booking was the next logical step. He was wrong. Nash was terrible. The nWo expanded because they planned to make an nWo TV show and needed enough guys to make it a viable promotion/touring group on its own. When that didnt come to fruition, they began splitting it off into factions to try and make it more elite. But I certainly agree it was a poor idea. The WolfPac was a good idea in that it was very over, sold lots of merch. But it further buried WCW as a brand. yes, WWE created new stars because they had no choice. Vince was adamantly opposed to the idea of doing so and was probably more stubborn than Bischoff hence why Cena has been a top guy for, what, 15 years? They simply had no choice. They screwed up on Austin, they screwed up on Rocky and they are lucky they got second chances on both guys. Bret left, HBK suffered a career ending injury shortly thereafter. They had to push Austin, Rocky and Hunter. Shane McMahon had been pushing Vince to go more adult themed for ages. Shane watched ECW and UFC. Now, ECW had a major impact on WWE and WCW because they attracted a different demographic that both decided they wanted. But WWE raided ECW as much as WCW did. And Vince secretly financed ECW for a time and Paul pushed guys to WWE over WCW. As for Jay Leno, it came on the heels of using Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone and receiving a ton of publicity and large PPV buy rates (The Bash at the Beach Buy Rate was more than double the two previous months), so they went back to the well. Using celebrities is fine. Jay Leno got them some interesting media including Bisch and Hogan crashing the Tonight Show, but it was too soon after Rodman and Malone so the mainstream media mostly tuned it out and the buy rate suffered. But they had to do it when they did because part of getting Jay was doing it at Road Wild for the Sturgis Biker Rally. David Arquette was Russo's idea. It was April 25th 2000 and Eric had just returned to WCW in April and admits he was trying to get along with Vince. He was gone by July. Russo defends the move as generating a bunch of publicity, which it did, though it was a terrible wrestling idea. David donated all his pay from WCW to charity. Here's the timeline: WWE sucked in the mid 90's. WCW was arguably better (better wrestling, better talent, better angles). But WCW was losing money. Eric becomes head and immediately makes changes and cuts to get WCW out of the red. As WCW rose, WWE dropped. WCW had edgier, cooler programming. By the time WWE countered with edgier, cooler programming, they took it further. WCW wasnt able to go as far due to the corporate sensibilities and content restrictions. Thats not an excuse because they could have just been "better" without having more T&A. But WWE rode to the top on the back of almost no wrestling, lousy wrestling and loads of T&A, adult language and crash TV booking. WCW was competitive for much of 1998, after WWE had regained the ratings. But WCW suffered from corporate BS. There is no doubt Eric and many of his decisions hurt the company in late 1998 and 1999. He was too chummy with his top guys, he was reluctant (in a ratings battle) to "re-build" with newer/younger talent, made the wrong decisions (Sting, Bret, Flair to name a few). But WCW's real decline came after he was sent home. If I was arguing against Eric, I'd point to his run in TNA where they were worse creatively then when he got there but arguably better from a TV production stand point and Eric was very popular with SPIKE TV execs. Thats really his bread and butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ. Possibly but he's still the boss so it falls on him. He gets the credit for the good and the blame for the bad that happens under his watch. Arquette was barely under Eric's watch. Arquette came in in April 1999 and Eric returned in April 1999. So while he would have had to agree to it, it was a Russo initiative and Eric was reluctant at that time to fight with Vince. Eric was asked if he could work with Russo and Eric was trying to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Bischoffs hands were definitely tied. The JBL interview on wwe network explains lots of things including behind the scenes stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 28, 2015 Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Arquette was on Russo not Bischoff. Goalie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2015 Russo and DDP even pushed for Arquette to become champ. DDP mentioned it a few times now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Hey I'm not saying everything Heyman and McMahon did was great as well... your retorts were well thought out and I will take back the Arquette comment.. still.... the guy literally only had the nWo and a tonne of other bad ideas. Yes he made money, yes the nWo was a very good money making angle..... but forget not how shitty WCW was before the nWo took off and how shitty it was the last several years of WCW. Outside of the nWo and maybe Goldberg... what the hell did Bischoff bring that was entertaining , fresh and well liked by the fans? What great memories aside from the nWo do you have of those years? I didn't even bother pointing out the TNA stuff since I stopped following TNA pretty much around that time and I thought it was well known that Bischoff simply mooched off of Hogan and went downhill fast with lame reality shows that bombed horribly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 The pop Dean Malenko got when he pretended to be a masked wrestler to get at Jericho. He unmasked and it was insane. The cruiser weights were phenomenal. Jericho's whole schtick back then was really good. The return of Ric Flair and the Four Horesemen Savage's feud with DDP that put DDP on the map. Sting's fake betrayal of WCW and his transition to the crow Sting. Flairs feud with Savage that rekindled WCW's house show business. The West Texas Rednecks (hilarious) Chris Benoit's best of seven series with Booker T. The Latino World Order. Flair in the insane asylum. Honestly I wasn't even much of a wcw fan because we didn't get it here at first. But I have lots of non nWo memories. The nWo overshadowed everything else to an extent though. Bisch had a number of reasonably successful TV projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing Havent finished watching it yet but read the recap online. Its funny because word was Vince was in "panic" mode after the last few ratings and his response was more Kane? The Corporate Kane/dual personalities thing is a fun little MID CARD angle (even if its a rip off of TNA). Putting Cena early and Roman/Bray in the main event when their program is really feeling like it's dragging is odd too. And again, another issue with WWE is there softening of face/heel alignments and making it confusing for fans. It makes no one over when you do that. Teasing issues with Orton/Ambrose. Paige comes out to a pop then teams with the faces, then turns. Bellas get more heat on the faces. Its just all backwards. heard there was even a "Russo" chant during the climactic Kane angle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing Havent finished watching it yet but read the recap online. Its funny because word was Vince was in "panic" mode after the last few ratings and his response was more Kane? The Corporate Kane/dual personalities thing is a fun little MID CARD angle (even if its a rip off of TNA). Putting Cena early and Roman/Bray in the main event when their program is really feeling like it's dragging is odd too. And again, another issue with WWE is there softening of face/heel alignments and making it confusing for fans. It makes no one over when you do that. Teasing issues with Orton/Ambrose. Paige comes out to a pop then teams with the faces, then turns. Bellas get more heat on the faces. Its just all backwards. heard there was even a "Russo" chant during the climactic Kane angle Whatever it was it felt like I was watching a kiddie show. Glad I could just turn it off after the segment ended rather than have paid a ticket to get in to the show. I get the Russo chants from the crowd because that is exactly how Russo would have booked things. The WWE trying to be cute. If the old Kane (hate the term Demon) had come out & started brawling with Rollins every show, then fine. But this is utterly stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Agreed. I shut it off too. Was just crap. 40 minutes of Cena to start. Not good. Demon Kane angle was neat but they ruined it big time last night iso_55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Vince is very stubborn. Kane is one of the few guys from the attitude era, so he gets a push. Just bizarre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iso_55 Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Vince is very stubborn. Kane is one of the few guys from the attitude era, so he gets a push. Just bizarre Yeah, he got a push alright. Off a cliff taking Rollins with him. How can any wrestling fans take these 2 guys seriously anymore? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Vince needs to retire and enjoy retirement.... I assume Steph takes over once he's gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Unknown Poster Posted September 29, 2015 Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 Vince needs to retire and enjoy retirement.... I assume Steph takes over once he's gone? Hunter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goalie Posted September 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2015 HHH will take over the creative side of things, There are some rumors that Shane may return once Vince is gone to run the day to day operations of the company. I don't believe Stephanie has any interest in doing what Vince does, she'd rather just be a mom i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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