So at my house, we got MTS and i was browsing the channels and came to channel 1528 and low and behold, wwe network free preview. Pretty cool stuff, went to parents house, they have shaw and switched it to 225 and low and behold, wwe network but no free preview. My dad told me it's because Shaw are A holes but yeah.. Anyone gonna get this channel? I'm thinking about it, 11.99 a month, lots of footage, archived stuff, get to watch NXT, lots of history on that channel it seems, plus pay per views are included in that 11.99 a month. Say what you will but if a fan of wrestling, 11.99 for all that stuff plus a pay per view which goes for like 50 or more bucks on ppv, Not a bad deal is it? 

 

 

And Wrestlemania is coming up this Sunday too, not sure how many wrestling fans there are here but anyone gonna check it out? I haven't watched as religiously as i have in the past but do enjoy me the big 4, gonna say 3 cuz survivor series has sucked recently but do enjoy watching the big 3 PPV's (rumble,mania,summerslam)

 

and hell, it's only gonna cost 11.99 this time i think. Instead of the 50 bucks, Gotta make that decision to order the network soon i think, unless the free preview on MTS is all this month. 

Brandon - what did eric steal from ecw besides talent?

Most of the guys who bragged about money were lying. They were well paid yes but wwe was competitive on money by late 97

They filled up the nWo because they were planning an nWo TV show.

You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols.

You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols.

Now there's arguing on a wrestling thread? C'mon guys, really???

You can't criticize Bischoff cuz he's one of TUPs idols.

There is a difference between criticizing someone for things they deserve and criticizing them for things they dont.

 

If you list ten things to be critical of Eric for, I will tell you which ones are true and which ones are false.  When dealing with facts, opinion doesnt matter much.

 

Sort of like saying Smackdown's rating are rising when its in comparison to one week ago and three weeks ago they had their lowest rating of the year. 

 

If you asked me to list all the things I consider myself an expert on, Id have none.  Except wrestling. 

 

Opinion is: Eric was a poor booker and a lousy performer (because someone else could say they loved his angles and loved his performances.  Facts are things like: turned WCW from a money loser to generating the most revenue of any wrestling company in the history of the sport.

Can't tell me that Bischoff's input for Raw & Smackdown wouldn't be valuable compared to what they're doing now. 

Brandon - what did eric steal from ecw besides talent?

Most of the guys who bragged about money were lying. They were well paid yes but wwe was competitive on money by late 97

They filled up the nWo because they were planning an nWo TV show.

 

 

Off the top of my head...

 

The idea of loading cards with high flyers / great talent in lighter classes  (Benoit,  Malenko, Mysterio, Psychoasis, Jericho  etc...)

Stole all the newer edgier gimmicks (Raven + flock,  Saturn ,  Public Enemy)  or destroyed good gimmicks like the Sandman.

 

Also misused talent with horrible gimmicks which then turned it around in ECW   (Rob Van Dam,  Sabu,  Steve Austin!!! So many more)

 

They over saturated the nWo because nobody cared anymore and they were desperate to get lightning in a bottle twice!  

 

Look at how many people were in the nWo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_World_Order_members

 

 

He made Kevin Nash a booker ... one of the worst workers and also worst back stage selfish guys in the biz.  

 

The nWo was a good idea no doubt about it and getting Turner to put money into bringing Hogan and Macho into WCW was a smart move... but once the nWo ran stale and while WWE was creating new superstars (or poaching ECW) ... WCW created only Goldberg and ran the company into the ground with a bunch of old guys and old gimmicks.  

 

When I think of back in the late 90's  most of my wrestling memories are WWE and all the random over the top moments and unique angles ....   for WCW I just remember nWo and all of the ppvs and storylines blurred together because it was all of the same.    

 

To finalize my rant... he made Arquette the champion and had  Jay Leno  fighting on ppv's!!!   COME ON you can't defend that kind of crap!

I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ.

I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ.

 

Possibly but he's still the boss so it falls on him.  He gets the credit for the good and the blame for the bad that happens under his watch.

Brandon, Ill try and reply to each one of your points:

 

WCW had a history of high flyers before ECW.  They created the the Light Heavyweight Championship in 1991 as a vehicle for Brian Pillman (and Jushin Liger).  And they had a business relationship with New Japan Pro Wrestling which had more traditional "high flyers".

 

Where Eric first saw guys like Eddie Guerrero, Rey Misterio etc, it was a a PPV called When World's Collide featuring talent from AAA (Mexico) and produced by WCW and Eric Bischoff.  That PPV was the first real national American exposure for that style of wrestling and those wrestlers.

 

If I recall, Eric wanted to bring in Eddie and Art Barr as a tag team (they were a very good tag team) but Barr died.  It is true that Eddie, Malenko, Benoit etc went to ECW and Eddie & Malenko went to WCW about a year later.  But Eric wasnt clueless to those guys.  Benoit had worked for WCW before (so did Eddie but I think it was before Eric's time).

 

Paul Heyman always knew he'd lose those guys because they were too good to wrestle on the smaller stage of ECW.  I dont think it's say Eric stole them from ECW.  Because of the relationship with New Japan where those guys also worked, it was probably inevitable they'd work for ECW.   Those guys went to WCW when Nitro launched.  Eric needed more talent.  This was a brand new two hour weekly show.  He needed talent.  And he wanted talent that was not only different and unique compared to WWE but different compared to most of his upper card which were heavyweights.

 

Raven, for sure, he took him virtually unchanged.  But that was not uncommon in wrestling back then where a guy developed a character over years and used that same character wherever he went.  ECW was very over-rated to an extent.  Raven was a top guy in ECW.  A mid card guy in WCW which I think was appropriate.

 

I'd use Mike Awesome as a better example if I was arguing WCW ripped off ECW.  But realistically, if WCW ripped off ECW, WWE did so far more.  ECW was little more than a development territory.  Every one of those guys wanted to go to WCW or WWE to make more money and have a less grueling style.  WWE and WCW often went after the same guys (Public Enemy for example).

 

Sandman couldnt be Sandman in WCW.  So they gave him a new name and essentially the same gimmick.  But Sandman basically sucked and was little more than a great entrance and a less charismatic and talented Steve Austin.

 

As for Austin, both Austin and Eric tell the story that Austin was miserable.  He was hurt and Eric had his secretary call him and Austin said tell the MF'er im not home (or something to that effect).  So Eric fired him.  They both agree Austin deserved to be fired.  Keep in mind, in WCW, Austin got a way bigger push than he got in WWE initially.  The only reason Austin went to ECW was because he had a non-compete with WCW which wouldnt allow him to go to WWE and he was still injured.  WWE dropped the ball with Austin big time and if not for Hunter getting punished in 1996 (allowing Austin to get his spot), we dont know when Austin would have exploded.

 

Yes, he made Kevin Nash booker.  And that was an awful decision.  But WWE had bad bookers too.  But in the late 90's, it was easier to sink a company creatively.  Eric tells the story that Nash had always been very creative so he thought booking was the next logical step.  He was wrong.  Nash was terrible.

 

The nWo expanded because they planned to make an nWo TV show and needed enough guys to make it a viable promotion/touring group on its own.  When that didnt come to fruition, they began splitting it off into factions to try and make it more elite.  But I certainly agree it was a poor idea.  The WolfPac was a good idea in that it was very over, sold lots of merch.  But it further buried WCW as a brand.

 

yes, WWE created new stars because they had no choice.  Vince was adamantly opposed to the idea of doing so and was probably more stubborn than Bischoff hence why Cena has been a top guy for, what, 15 years?  They simply had no choice.  They screwed up on Austin, they screwed up on Rocky and they are lucky they got second chances on both guys.  Bret left, HBK suffered a career ending injury shortly thereafter.  They had to push Austin, Rocky and Hunter.

 

Shane McMahon had been pushing Vince to go more adult themed for ages. Shane watched ECW and UFC.  Now, ECW had a major impact on WWE and WCW because they attracted a different demographic that both decided they wanted.  But WWE raided ECW as much as WCW did.  And Vince secretly financed ECW for a time and Paul pushed guys to WWE over WCW.

 

As for Jay Leno, it came on the heels of using Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone and receiving a ton of publicity and large PPV buy rates (The Bash at the Beach Buy Rate was more than double the two previous months), so they went back to the well.  Using celebrities is fine.  Jay Leno got them some interesting media including Bisch and Hogan crashing the Tonight Show, but it was too soon after Rodman and Malone so the mainstream media mostly tuned it out and the buy rate suffered.  But they had to do it when they did because part of getting Jay was doing it at Road Wild for the Sturgis Biker Rally.

 

David Arquette was Russo's idea.  It was April 25th 2000 and Eric had just returned to WCW in April and admits he was trying to get along with Vince.  He was gone by July.  Russo defends the move as generating a bunch of publicity, which it did, though it was a terrible wrestling idea.  David donated all his pay from WCW to charity.

 

Here's the timeline:

 

WWE sucked in the mid 90's.  WCW was arguably better (better wrestling, better talent, better angles).  But WCW was losing money.  Eric becomes head and immediately makes changes and cuts to get WCW out of the red.  As WCW rose, WWE dropped.  WCW had edgier, cooler programming.  By the time WWE countered with edgier, cooler programming, they took it further.  WCW wasnt able to go as far due to the corporate sensibilities and content restrictions.  Thats not an excuse because they could have just been "better" without having more T&A.  But WWE rode to the top on the back of almost no wrestling, lousy wrestling and loads of T&A, adult language and crash TV booking. 

 

WCW was competitive for much of 1998, after WWE had regained the ratings.  But WCW suffered from corporate BS.

 

There is no doubt Eric and many of his decisions hurt the company in late 1998 and 1999.  He was too chummy with his top guys, he was reluctant (in a ratings battle) to "re-build" with newer/younger talent, made the wrong decisions (Sting, Bret, Flair to name a few).  But WCW's real decline came after he was sent home. 

 

If I was arguing against Eric, I'd point to his run in TNA where they were worse creatively then when he got there but arguably better from a TV production stand point and Eric was very popular with SPIKE TV execs.  Thats really his bread and butter.

 

I think Russo and DDP had a big say in Arquette becoming champ.

 

Possibly but he's still the boss so it falls on him.  He gets the credit for the good and the blame for the bad that happens under his watch.

 

Arquette was barely under Eric's watch.  Arquette came in in April 1999 and Eric returned in April 1999.  So while he would have had to agree to it, it was a Russo initiative and Eric was reluctant at that time to fight with Vince.  Eric was asked if he could work with Russo and Eric was trying to do so.

Bischoffs hands were definitely tied. The JBL interview on wwe network explains lots of things including behind the scenes stuff.

Arquette was on Russo not Bischoff. 

Russo and DDP even pushed for Arquette to become champ. DDP mentioned it a few times now.

Hey I'm not saying everything Heyman and McMahon did was great as well...  your retorts were well thought out and I will take back the Arquette comment..  still.... the guy literally only had the  nWo and a tonne of other bad ideas.   

 

Yes he made money,  yes the nWo was a very good money making angle.....   but forget not how shitty WCW was before the nWo took off and how shitty it was the last several years of WCW.    

 

Outside of the nWo and maybe Goldberg... what the hell did Bischoff bring that was entertaining , fresh and well liked by the fans?    What great memories aside from the nWo do you have of those years?     

 

I didn't even bother pointing out the TNA stuff since I stopped following TNA pretty much around that time and I thought it was well known that Bischoff simply mooched off of Hogan and went downhill fast with lame reality shows  that bombed horribly?

The pop Dean Malenko got when he pretended to be a masked wrestler to get at Jericho. He unmasked and it was insane.

The cruiser weights were phenomenal.

Jericho's whole schtick back then was really good.

The return of Ric Flair and the Four Horesemen

Savage's feud with DDP that put DDP on the map.

Sting's fake betrayal of WCW and his transition to the crow Sting.

Flairs feud with Savage that rekindled WCW's house show business.

The West Texas Rednecks (hilarious)

Chris Benoit's best of seven series with Booker T.

The Latino World Order.

Flair in the insane asylum.

Honestly I wasn't even much of a wcw fan because we didn't get it here at first. But I have lots of non nWo memories. The nWo overshadowed everything else to an extent though.

Bisch had a number of reasonably successful TV projects.

What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing

What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing

Havent finished watching it yet but read the recap online.  Its funny because word was Vince was in "panic" mode after the last few ratings and his response was more Kane?  The Corporate Kane/dual personalities thing is a fun little MID CARD angle (even if its a rip off of TNA).  Putting Cena early and Roman/Bray in the main event when their program is really feeling like it's dragging is odd too.

 

And again, another issue with WWE is there softening of face/heel alignments and making it confusing for fans.  It makes no one over when you do that.  Teasing issues with Orton/Ambrose.  Paige comes out to a pop then teams with the faces, then turns.  Bellas get more heat on the faces.  Its just all backwards.

 

heard there was even a "Russo" chant during the climactic Kane angle

 

What the hell happened tonight on Raw & the storyline between Kane & Seth Rollins? How much more stupid does it get? Maybe Corporate Kane should have transformed into Demon Kane in a phone booth? Oh & that broken ankle? Ha,ha. Well, whatever, right? #embarrassing

Havent finished watching it yet but read the recap online.  Its funny because word was Vince was in "panic" mode after the last few ratings and his response was more Kane?  The Corporate Kane/dual personalities thing is a fun little MID CARD angle (even if its a rip off of TNA).  Putting Cena early and Roman/Bray in the main event when their program is really feeling like it's dragging is odd too.

 

And again, another issue with WWE is there softening of face/heel alignments and making it confusing for fans.  It makes no one over when you do that.  Teasing issues with Orton/Ambrose.  Paige comes out to a pop then teams with the faces, then turns.  Bellas get more heat on the faces.  Its just all backwards.

 

heard there was even a "Russo" chant during the climactic Kane angle

 

Whatever it was it felt like I was watching a kiddie show. Glad I could just turn it off after the segment ended rather than have paid a ticket to get in to the show. I get the Russo chants from the crowd because that is exactly how Russo would have booked things. The WWE trying to be cute. If the old Kane (hate the term Demon) had come out & started brawling with Rollins every show, then fine. But this is utterly stupid. 

Agreed. I shut it off too. Was just crap. 40 minutes of Cena to start. Not good. Demon Kane angle was neat but they ruined it big time last night

Vince is very stubborn.  Kane is one of the few guys from the attitude era, so he gets a push.  Just bizarre

Vince is very stubborn.  Kane is one of the few guys from the attitude era, so he gets a push.  Just bizarre

Yeah, he got a push alright. Off a cliff taking Rollins with him. How can any wrestling fans take these 2 guys seriously anymore?

Vince needs to retire and enjoy retirement....  I assume Steph takes over once he's gone?      

Vince needs to retire and enjoy retirement....  I assume Steph takes over once he's gone?      

Hunter.

HHH will take over the creative side of things, There are some rumors that Shane may return once Vince is gone to run the day to day operations of the company. I don't believe Stephanie has any interest in doing what Vince does, she'd rather just be a mom i think. 

HHH will take over the creative side of things, There are some rumors that Shane may return once Vince is gone to run the day to day operations of the company. I don't believe Stephanie has any interest in doing what Vince does, she'd rather just be a mom i think. 

Creative isnt her strong suit and she was raised in a patriarchal family.  WWE's creativity nose-dove under her term as VP.  The role she has now is perfect for her because she's a good public speaker and good with everyone from fans to corporate execs.  She's a "McMahon" so when she schmoozes its a representative of not just the BOD but the founding family.

 

The Shane rumours are just idle speculation.  Vince has said he's welcome back.  But it was not a friendly parting when he left.  If Vince died suddenly, the concern is that shareholder fear would knock the share price down a lot.  There isnt much worry about what the BOD would do since its controlled by the family and voting shares are controlled by the family.

 

Vince is giving Hunter a crash course in being a CEO with hopes he can step into the role.  i'd suspect at some point, Hunter will take over more day to day and Vince will remain as Chairman so that when he does pass away, there isnt a big power vacuum.  The other option is to appoint a "legitimate" CEO who would be respected in the business world and Wall Street while Hunter has, on paper, a lesser role but is essentially the boss (Steph would then become Chairperson I'd guess, giving her the power Hunter needs).

 

The Shane talk is if Vince died tomorrow and there was share holder concern impacting the share price, Shane could be convinced to return as CEO to calm everyone down.  Im not sure how Shane and Hunter could work together though.  Hunter's problem is his lack of education and experience.  Vince is giving him the education and Steph gives him the "name".  If Vince can hang on for another 5-10 years, Hunter probably slides into that CEO role with a lot of very experienced lieutenants to calm any wall street jitters.

 

Shane could still return.  I *believe* he still owns WWE stock and would inheriet X amount of voting shares from Vince so he'd be in a position to want a seat at the table.  Shane's problem is, he was lousy at creative.  And that's WWE's bread & butter.  Not sure Shane would come back and accept no say in creative.  That's the fun stuff.  But when Shane ran New Media, it was said his department was the best run and most relaxed with the highest morale in the company and his leaving broke a lot of hearts.

 

Shane's positives were he was forward thinking and "cool".  He pushed for more adult themes before the attitude era.  He pushed for guys like jericho and Steiner to be brought in.  He would often sit in the stands to watch RAW, wanting to be with the fans to feel their energy as they reacted to what was happening. 

 

The knock on Shane was he was always thinking of ideas for the top guys or the guys he was involved with but not everyone across the roster.  He was always referred to as "one of the boys" though.  He's probably closer to Eric Bischoff than Vince McMahon in temperament.   He was strongly against Steph dating Hunter but they were very close growing up.  Shane almost never comes up in news anymore.  So who knows...