Ferguson

[The Unknown Poster]

There are some very intelligent people on here and Im curious to hear some "local" discussion.  What a sad and terrible situation down in MO.

 

These are my thoughts.

 

When I first heard of the shooting, I didnt pay much attention but I thought "wow, a cop went off on a kid, obviously very excessively".  Im no blanket supporter of the police and have had my fair share of interactions with cops, both good and bad, due to my past work. 

 

Then as I learned more, what struck me was the overwhelming outrage by people who very likely knew little about what actually happened.  It immediately became about race rather than justice.

 

Reading more today, I feel sorry for the legitimate protestors, though Im not sure I support the protestors.  A sad development was the signs some store owners have put up saying please dont loot my store, black owner.  Regardless of details surrounding this event, these things always set racial relations back, no matter what.  Emotions always come to the fore and facts get left behind.

 

CNN had a recent poll about the OJ Simpson trial.  I dont recall the exact details and numbers but it showed a huge majority of black people thought OJ was innocent at the time of the trial and now a majority believe he is guilty, in 2014.  When emotion gives way to facts, then justice can take hold.

 

Of the facts I have read, the story of the cop involved in Ferguson seems to be supported.  Its very delicate down there.  Two people were shot yesterday (I think) during protests (not by cops).  Its a powder keg.

[mbrg]

These things don't set race relations back.  They show us exactly where they really are.  A temporary disruption in the civility and order that allows white people to pretend black people are being treated as equals is only shocking to half the people involved.  I'll let you guess which half.

 

 

John Oliver's take on it.  It's a good one.  More than just a look at the events or the systemic racism involved, he does a great job of getting underneath that and examining the underlying mindset.

[The Unknown Poster]

Please explain because Im not really getting your point.  Do you mean racism as in whites being inherently racists towards blacks or the other way around?

[mbrg]

I'd hazard a guess that prior to the shooting if you'd poll the residents of Ferguson as to the state of race relations, only the fairer-skinned among them would claim those relations were acceptable.

 

The south is a different place.  Lots has changed and yet not a lot has changed.  Mississippi officially ratified the 13th amendment last year - the one that abolishes slavery.  Just 150 years after it passed in congress.

[The Unknown Poster]

These things don't set race relations back.  They show us exactly where they really are.  A temporary disruption in the civility and order that allows white people to pretend black people are being treated as equals is only shocking to half the people involved.  I'll let you guess which half.

 

 

John Oliver's take on it.  It's a good one.  More than just a look at the events or the systemic racism involved, he does a great job of getting underneath that and examining the underlying mindset.

I tried to watch this.  It was awful.  I assume it was done shortly after the shooting.  The problem is, its biased outrage over an event without facts and actually wrong on certain levels.

 

Firstly, I find the effort to get laughs a little uncomfortable.  He talks about "tone deaf".  Well, getting laughs about this is as tone deaf as you can be.  The Chief's response to how many shots were fired isnt tone deaf, its not having all the facts.  So I guess you can criticise him for being unprepared or unwilling to provide a definitive response so he tried to be vague.  He should have said we are not prepared to release those details.  But then instead of being called tone deaf, he'd be called out for "hiding". 

 

The release of the video is NOT irrelevent.  This was actually one of the more shocking things to happen that began to influence my position.  The outrage from people over the fact Brown committed a strong arm robbery and how dare the police release that information.  Why wouldn't they?  It absolutely goes to the motive for Brown to attack the police officer if he thinks the reason the cop is questioning him is over the robbery.  Thats the only reasonable reason for Brown to over-react like he did, aside from just being an a$$hole in general (which i have no idea if he was or wasnt).

 

Thats about as far as I could get in the video.  It wasnt a "good take" on it at all.  It was emotional without facts.  It was very biased.  Even the description of the "unarmed teenager" over and over.  If the people on the other side kept describing him as "the hulking 6'3", 300 lbs violent robbery suspect" what would the reaction be?  Technically he is a teenager but the context in which certain people refer to him as such is to imply he was a kid.  He was not.  He was a grown man.  And to this I would also say, how is it relevent that he was 18 as opposed to 20?  What difference does that make?  Now as I said, I didnt get all the way through the video.  But I didnt hear mention of Brown attacking the police officer.  I didnt hear mention of the injuries suffered by the police officer.  I wonder, had Brown got a hold of the cops' gun and shot him dead would the reaction be the same or would it be "well, when cops harrass unarmed teenagers, thats what happens". 

 

And this is what I mean by setting back race relations.  Because this kind of emotional hyperbole entrenches people and it elicits reactions they might otherwise not have.  Another example of that is when the L.A. Four attacked Reginald Denny.  Now maybe the L.A. Four *were* just a bunch of racists.  But lets assume they didnt have an irrational hatred of all white people.  They reacted in a way outside the norm (presumably) because of emotion and anger fuelled by the racially explosive Rodney King trial.

 

Look at the Steeves' situation locally.  Emotions make situations worse than they seem.

 

I was discussing this with a friend this weekend and his initial response was "okay, the cop probably had a right to shoot him, but why couldnt he just shoot him in the leg?" 

 

I have no idea if the cop initiated communication with Brown because he was black or because he was walking in the middle of the street.  I have no idea if the cop could have done something other than empty his weapon into Brown.  I do know both men made choices that day.  But only one man's choices are being put on public trial.  And instead of justice, we're likely going to get a circus.  If the cop was wrong, throw him in jail and pay the family.  Im all on board for that.  But its important for the facts to be known, not just emotions from people with an agenda.

[The Unknown Poster]

I'd hazard a guess that prior to the shooting if you'd poll the residents of Ferguson as to the state of race relations, only the fairer-skinned among them would claim those relations were acceptable.

 

The south is a different place.  Lots has changed and yet not a lot has changed.  Mississippi officially ratified the 13th amendment last year - the one that abolishes slavery.  Just 150 years after it passed in congress.

I dont think anyone would argue that race relations continue to be less than ideal.  That will always be the case.  But thats a broader discussion. 

 

Staying focused on the issue at hand, I dont see how general race relations in Ferguson have a direct bearing on this.  By all accounts the trigger for the confrontation is not in dispute, that Brown and his cohort were walking down the middle of the street and the cop who had received word of a robbery asked them to not walk in the road.  The differing accounts seem to go off the rails after that point.  The tide seems to be changing in favour of the account of the police officer.  And I think thats where this will actually get more interesting.  Because if the officer's account is true, the discussion will turn to 'okay, the cop feared for his life, the cop was attacked and assaulted, the cop was under a second attack'...and whether his reaction to that was reasonable.  I bet if, when all facts are widely known and you polled people on whether they believe the cops' actions were reasonable or not, the results would trend right down racial lines.

[Goalie]

The only thing i will say is regardless of the story, it don't matter if its a gang member in winnipeg getting gunned down, it don't matter if its' a black guy being gunned down in the states, lol at the word "kid" used to describe a 6'4 305 pound 18 year old but.. regardless, you hear the same stuff, "he was such a good kid, trying to turn his life around" but then the facts come out and it makes you go hmm really.. Well some facts came out.. FACT: this "kid" minutes prior robbed a store with his not very credible witness friend... that's a good kid? a guy trying to turn his life around? BULLCRAP.

 

The other thing i'll say is, as much as some segments of the population may not agree, a cop will not shoot a civilian unless that cop is threatened. Obviously the "kid" did something to provoke the cop, if he didn't, the cop wouldn't have shot him a bunch of times.

 

That's all i have to say... hear the same thing every time in these "cases", it always turns in to a race issue, natives here, blacks down in the states.. it's always the white man shot him but the people never refuse to accept that their "little boy" might have been guilty of doing something to provoke the cop.

 

Nobody knows any real facts as to why the cop shot him but i'd be willing to bet just about anything i got that he had a very very valid reason to do so.

 

Rumours have it the "kid" actually reached in to the cops car to try to grab his gun, well i don't know about anyone else, but that's a big no no and if that's the case, well, it is what it is. 

[The Unknown Poster]

The only thing i will say is regardless of the story, it don't matter if its a gang member in winnipeg getting gunned down, it don't matter if its' a black guy being gunned down in the states, lol at the word "kid" used to describe a 6'4 305 pound 18 year old but.. regardless, you hear the same stuff, "he was such a good kid, trying to turn his life around" but then the facts come out and it makes you go hmm really.. Well some facts came out.. FACT: this "kid" minutes prior robbed a store with his not very credible witness friend... that's a good kid? a guy trying to turn his life around? BULLCRAP.

 

The other thing i'll say is, as much as some segments of the population may not agree, a cop will not shoot a civilian unless that cop is threatened. Obviously the "kid" did something to provoke the cop, if he didn't, the cop wouldn't have shot him a bunch of times.

 

That's all i have to say... hear the same thing every time in these "cases", it always turns in to a race issue, natives here, blacks down in the states.. it's always the white man shot him but the people never refuse to accept that their "little boy" might have been guilty of doing something to provoke the cop.

 

Nobody knows any real facts as to why the cop shot him but i'd be willing to bet just about anything i got that he had a very very valid reason to do so.

 

Rumours have it the "kid" actually reached in to the cops car to try to grab his gun, well i don't know about anyone else, but that's a big no no and if that's the case, well, it is what it is. 

 

The cops' side of the story is:

 

He had received the call about a robbery but did not have a description.  He came upon Brown and friend walking in the middle of the street.  He rolled down his window and asked them not to walk in the middle of the street.  They disregarded his request.  The cop then got the description of the robbery suspects and decided it matched Brown.  He tried to get out of the vehicle and Brown shoved the door closed, shoving the officer back in the car.  Brown then struck the officer breaking bones in his face.  The officer reached for his gun.  Brown reached in and tried to grab the gun.  I believe the gun went off first at that time.  Brown backed away and began running.  The cop got out of his vehicle, weapon drawn and ordered Brown to freeze.  Brown turned around and became beligerent, taunting the cop.  He then bull rushed the cop who fired several times, killing Brown.

 

More than a dozen witnesses have come forward to support the police officer's account.  I believe the only witness to support Brown is his cohort who was in on the robbery (gee, whats his motivation in this) who claims Brown raised his hands and said please dont shoot and was then executed.

 

Now, sometimes good people do bad things.  But this is a cop with (I believe) six years on the force and nothing on his file.  So we are to believe that a cop with zero prior issues who has patrolled areas with large black populations chose this day to let his racism boil to the surface to gun down an innocent man in broad daylight in front of a bunch of witnesses?

 

Who's story rings more likely?

[OldSchoolBlue]

 

The only thing i will say is regardless of the story, it don't matter if its a gang member in winnipeg getting gunned down, it don't matter if its' a black guy being gunned down in the states, lol at the word "kid" used to describe a 6'4 305 pound 18 year old but.. regardless, you hear the same stuff, "he was such a good kid, trying to turn his life around" but then the facts come out and it makes you go hmm really.. Well some facts came out.. FACT: this "kid" minutes prior robbed a store with his not very credible witness friend... that's a good kid? a guy trying to turn his life around? BULLCRAP.

 

The other thing i'll say is, as much as some segments of the population may not agree, a cop will not shoot a civilian unless that cop is threatened. Obviously the "kid" did something to provoke the cop, if he didn't, the cop wouldn't have shot him a bunch of times.

 

That's all i have to say... hear the same thing every time in these "cases", it always turns in to a race issue, natives here, blacks down in the states.. it's always the white man shot him but the people never refuse to accept that their "little boy" might have been guilty of doing something to provoke the cop.

 

Nobody knows any real facts as to why the cop shot him but i'd be willing to bet just about anything i got that he had a very very valid reason to do so.

 

Rumours have it the "kid" actually reached in to the cops car to try to grab his gun, well i don't know about anyone else, but that's a big no no and if that's the case, well, it is what it is. 

 

The cops' side of the story is:

 

He had received the call about a robbery but did not have a description.  He came upon Brown and friend walking in the middle of the street.  He rolled down his window and asked them not to walk in the middle of the street.  They disregarded his request.  The cop then got the description of the robbery suspects and decided it matched Brown.  He tried to get out of the vehicle and Brown shoved the door closed, shoving the officer back in the car.  Brown then struck the officer breaking bones in his face.  The officer reached for his gun.  Brown reached in and tried to grab the gun.  I believe the gun went off first at that time.  Brown backed away and began running.  The cop got out of his vehicle, weapon drawn and ordered Brown to freeze.  Brown turned around and became beligerent, taunting the cop.  He then bull rushed the cop who fired several times, killing Brown.

 

More than a dozen witnesses have come forward to support the police officer's account.  I believe the only witness to support Brown is his cohort who was in on the robbery (gee, whats his motivation in this) who claims Brown raised his hands and said please dont shoot and was then executed.

 

Now, sometimes good people do bad things.  But this is a cop with (I believe) six years on the force and nothing on his file.  So we are to believe that a cop with zero prior issues who has patrolled areas with large black populations chose this day to let his racism boil to the surface to gun down an innocent man in broad daylight in front of a bunch of witnesses?

 

Who's story rings more likely?

 

 

I disagree with your opinion 99.9% of the time - but not today.

[mbrg]

I tried to watch this.  It was awful.  I assume it was done shortly after the shooting.  The problem is, its biased outrage over an event without facts and actually wrong on certain levels.

 

 

I was neither referring to it as a source of facts on this specific situation or as a source of humour.

 

I suppose I was not entirely specific.  I did not speak of the facts of this particular shooting for a reason.  And while the video and this discussion are the result of that specific shooting, I also did not include it for that reason.  I was specifically addressing your comment on the state of race relations being set back.

 

As I said previously, these things don't set race relations back.  They show us exactly where they really are.  A temporary disruption in the civility and order that allows white people to pretend black people are being treated as equals is only shocking to half the people involved.

 

I did not say anything else about the video because I thought others could take away their own thoughts from it.

 

Since you did not choose to do that, the interesting takeaways I had included:

-  A Ferguson officer screaming "Bring it all you ******* animals!" as a means of dealing with the protestors

- The lieutenant of the county police who ordered officers to arrest black people found shopping in a predominantly white county

- The Governor of Missouri finding every black person in his building to stand behind him (looking at their expressions, I'd say at the threat of being fired if they chose otherwise) while addressing the state

- The four counts of destruction of police property Ferguson police charged a entirely different black man with for bleeding on their uniforms after the four officers beat him in his cell

- The police website (not Ferguson) with the video demonstrating the awesomeness of their assault tank to the tune of "Die Mother****** Die"

 

The latter one is included not as something that is interesting specifically to the state of race relations (although I'll expect that the instances of using that assault tank against black people to be extremely high), but more to the perceived need to militarize the police force.

 

Now if you want to continue to declare what an appropriate reaction should be for the people of Ferguson based on what you believe a timeline of events to be in this one specific incident, go right ahead.  I'm going to go way out on a limb and suggest that their entire experience of Black people living in the southern US has been different than yours.

[The Unknown Poster]

I don't live in the southern US so yes I am sure their experience living there is different then mine.

None of which has anything to do with the issue at hand. Unless you're suggesting that if some people are a victim of racism that all people get to react violently even when not being treated with racism?

The "animals" remark bad nothing to do with race.

I won't argue with you that racism exists. But that's not the topic at hand.

[Jacquie]

I was discussing this with a friend this weekend and his initial response was "okay, the cop probably had a right to shoot him, but why couldnt he just shoot him in the leg?" 

 

Your friend watches too much TV and/or movies. Police are trained to shoot at the torso. In real life, no one has the accuracy to shoot at such a small area in a situation like this - especially if either or both people are moving.

[The Unknown Poster]

I was discussing this with a friend this weekend and his initial response was "okay, the cop probably had a right to shoot him, but why couldnt he just shoot him in the leg?"

Your friend watches too much TV and/or movies. Police are trained to shoot at the torso. In real life, no one has the accuracy to shoot at such a small area in a situation like this - especially if either or both people are moving.

That's exactly what I said.

[Brandon]

I was discussing this with a friend this weekend and his initial response was "okay, the cop probably had a right to shoot him, but why couldnt he just shoot him in the leg?"

Your friend watches too much TV and/or movies. Police are trained to shoot at the torso. In real life, no one has the accuracy to shoot at such a small area in a situation like this - especially if either or both people are moving.

No policemen are trained to shoot for the leg... The reason the police shoot is to stop the threat immediately. So they aim dead straight in the middle of the chest.

Highest % of stopping the threat.

When I went to shoot some guns it was quite difficult for me to get a head shot.

With a moving part, different elevations and the fact that you rarelyhave time to aim its nearly impossible to hit a leg by choice

[Goalie]

it depends which gun you are using but cops aren't using sniper rifles, they are using hand guns, hand guns are not easy to aim with at all.

 

I'd suggest that anyone who thinks it's easy to hit a moving target with a hand gun, go get you one of those clay pigeon machines and a couple hand guns, bring some rifles too, go set it up outside the city, in the country somewhere, preferably on a lot you own outside the city and see what happens.. Try it with the rifles first? not so hard actually but if you never done it before, You might hit one,, try it with the hand gun then, you won't hit any. The only thing you might hit is your ass on the ground cuz them hand guns have quite the kick to them when they go off

 

 

Anyway though..

 

Just a comment, why are all the "witnesses" who claim that the cop basically "executed" this brown fella, why do their stories all seem like such BS? 

 

Yeah i dunno they say, i only saw this part.. the part where he got shot, i didn't see the stuff happening prior, i was looking out my window.. BS you were, 

Where were you a few days ago? Seriously...

 

I dunno what it's like down there in Ferguson, just outside of St Louis but... i'm getting the impression that the black people don't particularly care for cops or more than likely, don't care for any white person with some power.

 

It's kind of like reverse racism going on, most people think white people are racist towards blacks but i think this is a case of a majority black town being racist against whites.

[The Unknown Poster]

it depends which gun you are using but cops aren't using sniper rifles, they are using hand guns, hand guns are not easy to aim with at all.

 

I'd suggest that anyone who thinks it's easy to hit a moving target with a hand gun, go get you one of those clay pigeon machines and a couple hand guns, bring some rifles too, go set it up outside the city, in the country somewhere, preferably on a lot you own outside the city and see what happens.. Try it with the rifles first? not so hard actually but if you never done it before, You might hit one,, try it with the hand gun then, you won't hit any. The only thing you might hit is your ass on the ground cuz them hand guns have quite the kick to them when they go off

 

 

Anyway though..

 

Just a comment, why are all the "witnesses" who claim that the cop basically "executed" this brown fella, why do their stories all seem like such BS? 

 

Yeah i dunno they say, i only saw this part.. the part where he got shot, i didn't see the stuff happening prior, i was looking out my window.. BS you were, 

Where were you a few days ago? Seriously...

 

I dunno what it's like down there in Ferguson, just outside of St Louis but... i'm getting the impression that the black people don't particularly care for cops or more than likely, don't care for any white person with some power.

 

It's kind of like reverse racism going on, most people think white people are racist towards blacks but i think this is a case of a majority black town being racist against whites.

Im not sure its that insiduous.  I think its difficult for a lot of us to understand what some of these people have experienced.  Thats no excuse, ofcourse, for their actions.  But it might partially explain some of the rhetoric and whatnot.  No intelligent person thinks looting a story is a reasonable reaction or "protest" to what happened.  Its a few bad apples plus the mob mentality.  The problem is some of the leadership and the "elders" make excuses for this behavior.

 

I understand how the family of Brown feels.  I dont expect them to admit he was a thug and his actions directly led to his own death.  But for the other people around this issue, its not racism to present the facts of what Brown did right before the confrontation with the police officer.  The family lawyer made a statement something to the effect that Brown was executed in the street.  How is a statement like that supposed to contribute to finding true justice?  It maliciously contributes to the emotionally heated situation.  As a lawyer, it's dispicable.

 

What struck me in the early going was that a whole lot of people who didnt know the facts had already concluded that a white cop with an impeccable record chose to commit a cold-blooded execution of a sweet innocent black kid in broad daylight in front of witnesses.  They rioted demanding justice but didnt want to hear anything that was different than the narrative that Brown was executed by a racist cop.

 

If Brown had wrested the gun away and shot the cop dead, would we even know about it?  Would it be leading news on CNN every day since?  Would there be riots in the streets demanding justice?

[SPuDS]

Well i am glad that im not in the minority here (no pun intended) as i always felt the protesters side of the story was always a little fishy... in my opinion, if a cop asked me to stop or move over then I'm simply going to do it no questions asked.. They are tasked with huge responsibility and deal with a ton of bullshit every day.. I truly doubt the "arms in the air" story and if anything his hands went right up when the cop got full control of his gun but at that point your prettt much screwed.. Lie down and take your arrest... Dont run after attempting hit or subdue a cop..

[The Unknown Poster]

Wasnt the "hands up trying to surrender" narrative started by the friend and potential co-robber of Brown?  Not very credible.

 

The big argument now is the autopsy.  Three have been done.  One done at the behest of the family which has been released (which prompted the family lawyer to call the death an execution) and two others (one by the local authority I believe, and one done by the military).  Hopefully the other two get released soon.

 

The controversy is that Brown was shot in the top of the head.  The family says that proves he was executed.  Does it not also fit the cops' story?  Yes it surely does.  The curious thing is there was no Gun Powder Residue on Brown's skin but they did not get to examine his clothing.

 

Things seem to be cooling off or at least media interest as slowed a bit.  I wonder if that has anything to do with the mounting witnesses taking the cops' side.

[The Unknown Poster]

Hate to bump a thread I posted in last but I just read something ludicrous on CNN.

 

The lawyer for Michael Brown's buddy (he who was in the store when Brown assaulted the woman and robbed the store and also seems to be the only witness to the 'Brown was surrending' story, claiming he was shot in the back which was proved to be a lie) was quoted in a CNN story as saying his client told police about Michael ("Big Mike") and the store but "this wasn't theft.  It was shoplifting". 

 

The narrative of this story by most of the mainstream media is baffling.  This cop, with zero evidence that he is either a racist or acted inappropriately, is automatically, without facts or investigation, a black-hating executioner.  But the "victim" who is caught on video assaulting a woman and robbing a store is just a misunderstood kid.  Is it bleeding heart liberalism?  Or is big media afraid of being portrayed as "racists"?

 

If the cop was wrong, throw the book at him.  But the one-sided, over-the-top hyperbole in this case serves no one, especially justice.

[Goalie]

The reason the media has somewhat moved on is because the bigger story is ISIS and a possible threat to the USA. These guys are for real, they ain't messing around, beheading people on youtube videos.. Remember MH370? dominated the airways for a long time, what ever happened there? Then it became about Ukraine for a while then something else happened and they went on about MH17 for a while, then ferugson happened, now ISIS.. 

 

Fact is, as much as some may not like to admit it, there are bigger stories in the world than a black guy being shot by a police officer. 

[The Unknown Poster]

The reason the media has somewhat moved on is because the bigger story is ISIS and a possible threat to the USA. These guys are for real, they ain't messing around, beheading people on youtube videos.. Remember MH370? dominated the airways for a long time, what ever happened there? Then it became about Ukraine for a while then something else happened and they went on about MH17 for a while, then ferugson happened, now ISIS.. 

 

Fact is, as much as some may not like to admit it, there are bigger stories in the world than a black guy being shot by a police officer. 

To be perfectly honest, the story has gotten more press then it deserved.  Cops shoot people every day (unfortunately).  Most justified, some probably not.  And they arent international headline news.  This is, only because white cop/black "kid".  And the "kids" family (via lawyers) is (to their credit I guess), controlling the message.  Make no mistake, if the cop reacted wrongly either because he was racist (which I doubt at this point) or some other reason (cowboy mentality, stress, fear etc) then he absolutely should pay the price.  But the message right now is so slanted it's almost laughable if it wasnt a tragedy

 

And hey whatever happened to MH370?? hmmmm

[Goalie]

There are some strong rumours going around that MH370 may have been hijacked by that ISIS group and some people in the know are saying there could be another 9/11 coming up very soon, on 9/11/14 actually.. some pretty big time military people, retired i believe are speculating that the MH370 plane could be used by ISIS to attack the USA. 

[The Unknown Poster]

There are some strong rumours going around that MH370 may have been hijacked by that ISIS group and some people in the know are saying there could be another 9/11 coming up very soon, on 9/11/14 actually.. some pretty big time military people, retired i believe are speculating that the MH370 plane could be used by ISIS to attack the USA. 

 

I dont buy it.  Firstly, that would be the worst thing ISIS could do though I assume they'd gladly do it if they could.  But that would be the end of ISIS because the US would decimate them.  But the evidence mostly points to mechanical failure.  Are you of the opinion the pilot(s) were in on a hijacking?

[Goalie]

 

There are some strong rumours going around that MH370 may have been hijacked by that ISIS group and some people in the know are saying there could be another 9/11 coming up very soon, on 9/11/14 actually.. some pretty big time military people, retired i believe are speculating that the MH370 plane could be used by ISIS to attack the USA. 

 

I dont buy it.  Firstly, that would be the worst thing ISIS could do though I assume they'd gladly do it if they could.  But that would be the end of ISIS because the US would decimate them.  But the evidence mostly points to mechanical failure.  Are you of the opinion the pilot(s) were in on a hijacking?

 

I'm not sure any more and to be honest, have lost interest, just reporting what a few people have said. It wouldn't shock me one bit to see another 9/11, maybe 9/11 x 1000 so like 911,000 

[The Unknown Poster]

It would shock me.  If only in the sense that the "rules" of a hijacked plane prior to 9/11 were that you complied and everything would be okay.  Whereas post 9/11, the procedure is for passengers and crew to attack, resist, etc the hijackers making it a very risky proposition for would-be hijackers.  I think the American people are also now more accepting of a military shoot-down of a hi-jacked plane.  if terrorists are thinking of going that route, they are pretty stupid, in my opinion.