Safeway? They don't have those in Toronto? Talk about small-time...

 

Especially the crap they sell that they call milk which is loaded with steroids, drugs and hormones.  Mlik is tasty.  But it isnt good.

I grew up drinking milk straight from the cow, and it definitely tasted better than what is sold in stores, that's for sure. We'd have friends visit us from Calgary, and they'd bring store-bought milk because they hated the taste of our straight from the cow stuff. It was also extremely rich, as we just skimmed off the cream, so it was probably like drinking homo milk x 2.

 

I stated this earlier in the thread.  If you're gonna drink cows milk, get it straight from the cow, unprocessed.  All the enzymes and nutrients are burned off when they pasteurize it.  Even the enzyme for breaking down lactose is in it, so it makes it easier for human consumption.  I have an allergy to milk that mucks up my sinuses and makes me super mucusy, as well I'm a bit lactose intolerant.  So I wish I could try this just to see if I could tolerate it.

 

 

 

Well then we should get the vegan douchebags I know together with the anti-vegan douchebags and perhaps we can find a way to bridge the gap to peace and understanding. It's the whole "meat is murder" crowd that bugs me to no end. Unfortunately, my 18 year old niece has been radicalized by some loser teacher of hers, and now every family gathering we have to listen to why we are such terrible people for cutting into a turkey or a ham. On Christmas morning, as I'm enjoying a delicious pile of bacon, she proceeded to tell me that the pig I am eating had a family too, and that I should be ashamed for eating him. I asked her who filled her head with this garbage, and that's where I found out about her nutty teacher. So I told her that I grew up on a hog farm in Niverville so I knew a thing or two about pigs, and how if we didn't separate the piglets from the sow and the sire boar there was about a 95% chance that that pig would have been devoured by its own family in its first two days of life. Apparently her teacher hadn't told her that part of the pig story, instead kids are taught that animals are basically humans and their existence is similar to a Disney movie, and since most of them will never visit a barn or farm in their lives, they just eat it up, pun intended. Anyway, after being laughed at a lot, by everyone, the niece has toned down the anti-meat nuttiness a bit, thank goodness.

 

Yeah this bugs me a lot too.  If you want to be vegan or vegetarian for your health, then go for it, but enough with the sob story on us killing animals.  Killing for sport pisses me off, and is the reason we have so many endangered species in the world.  I also hate the way some companies slaughter animals in the plant and practically torture the animal...if you're going to kill something don't torture it, make it quick and painless.  I've seen video's of the way they start cutting into the animal while it's still alive cause their too cheap to kill the thing first.  That really makes me want to shove something sharp up that company's anal cavity.

 

But killing to eat the meat and use it's hide for clothing...that's been in practice for thousands of years.  The natives were the best at it as they used every piece of the animal, and to me that's the right way to do it.

 

I WISH I had the self discipline to not eat meat.  The way animals are treated by big companies is dispicable.  If you have Netflix there are several documentaries about this which I cant remember the names of off the top of my head.  I like meat.  So get it.  but I have no problem with a vegan or vegetarian reminding me of the criminal nature of how our meat is processed.  Because quite honestly, the day we demand silence on the issue, is the day we agree its ok.  I mean, sure, I dont want someone at CHOP, standing at the table shaming me.  But I have no problem with people protesting these companies and trying to make change.  They are much better people than I am and I applaud their effort.

 

That's why I try and get my meat from our local farmers.  At least they hack them up properly instead of torturing them.  And yes I've watched those documentaries.

Optimum according to their opinion, not any sort of scientific reasoning. You believe it is optimum simply because they have told you it is. You have not presented a single fact in this entire thread, other than "read the China Study" and "I love milk so you can trust me." If you are going to try and present something as being factually correct, be prepared to support it with facts. Otherwise don't whine when you get called out on it.

Yeah this bugs me a lot too.  If you want to be vegan or vegetarian for your health, then go for it, but enough with the sob story on us killing animals.  Killing for sport pisses me off, and is the reason we have so many endangered species in the world.  I also hate the way some companies slaughter animals in the plant and practically torture the animal...if you're going to kill something don't torture it, make it quick and painless.  I've seen video's of the way they start cutting into the animal while it's still alive cause their too cheap to kill the thing first.  That really makes me want to shove something sharp up that company's anal cavity.

100% agree. There is no reason in this day and age for any animal raised for slaughter to suffer. I watched a good movie called "Temple Grandin", the true story of an autistic woman named Temple Grandin who revolutionized the way cows are slaughtered at killing plants. She had a special ability to think like a cow, and redesigned the entire process to limit suffering and anxiety of cattle to almost zero. Great movie, well worth watching.

 

But killing to eat the meat and use it's hide for clothing...that's been in practice for thousands of years.  The natives were the best at it as they used every piece of the animal, and to me that's the right way to do it.

Speaking of books and theories, another theory I've read a bit about is blood type. This is all just speculation but a large percentage of the world is "O positive". I'm "O Positive". Someone told me that O Positive people's ancestors were the hunter/gatherer types, and so those with this blood type are meat eaters, and their bodies are more conducive to digesting meat. Other blood types like type A and B are related to ancient tribes who farmed and lived on vegetables, which is why they are more suited to a vegetarian diet, as their ancestors pre-programed them for it. I know this is probably all bunk, but who knows. I know I love meat, and I'm O Positive. I don't digest wheats or bread very well. That proves nothing, but it is an interesting theory to consider.

Optimum according to their opinion, not any sort of scientific reasoning. You believe it is optimum simply because they have told you it is. You have not presented a single fact in this entire thread, other than "read the China Study" and "I love milk so you can trust me." If you are going to try and present something as being factually correct, be prepared to support it with facts. Otherwise don't whine when you get called out on it.

 

Mark Hyman and Walkter Willett are doctors.  But hey, what do they know.  Those are two people I quoted in this thread.

 

I know the sun is hot.  I've never been to the sun.  Do you want to debate that its hot?  People tell me it is.  Scientists tell me.  I believe them because I apply common sense to what I read.  But Im sure you can find someone to tell you the sun doesnt exist and its all an illusion.  I guess the debate about the sun rages on.

 

Come on man...you're the one whining.  If you cant debate with common sense, dont take part in the thread.  The China Study was a STUDY, by the way.  Now you can debate it but dont tell me "people disagree" and consider that you sourcing it.  If you want everyone else to source their opinions, then you better too.  Otherwise, go have a tall glass of milk and get lost.

 

Yeah this bugs me a lot too.  If you want to be vegan or vegetarian for your health, then go for it, but enough with the sob story on us killing animals.  Killing for sport pisses me off, and is the reason we have so many endangered species in the world.  I also hate the way some companies slaughter animals in the plant and practically torture the animal...if you're going to kill something don't torture it, make it quick and painless.  I've seen video's of the way they start cutting into the animal while it's still alive cause their too cheap to kill the thing first.  That really makes me want to shove something sharp up that company's anal cavity.

100% agree. There is no reason in this day and age for any animal raised for slaughter to suffer. I watched a good movie called "Temple Grandin", the true story of an autistic woman named Temple Grandin who revolutionized the way cows are slaughtered at killing plants. She had a special ability to think like a cow, and redesigned the entire process. Great movie, well worth watching.

 

But killing to eat the meat and use it's hide for clothing...that's been in practice for thousands of years.  The natives were the best at it as they used every piece of the animal, and to me that's the right way to do it.

Speaking of books and theories, another theory I've read a bit about is blood type. This is all just speculation but a large percentage of the world is "O positive". I'm "O Positive". Someone told me that O Positive people's ancestors were the hunter/gatherer types, and so those with this blood type are meat eaters, and their bodies are more conducive to digesting meat. Other blood types like type A and B are related to ancient tribes who farmed and lived on vegetables, which is why they are more suited to a vegetarian diet, as their ancestors pre-programed them for it. I know this is probably all bunk, but who knows. I know I love meat, and I'm O Positive. I don't digest wheats or bread very well. That proves nothing, but it is an interesting theory to consider.

 

 

I find this very interesting.  i've read a little about blood types being able to tell you about yourself but never really looked into its validity.  It would be interesting to explore genetic predisposition and how generations of "inter-breeding" impacts that.

 

For example, one debate I like to bring up at parties just for fun is that men are genetically pre-disposed to *not* being monogamous whereas women are.  Usually the men in the room nod in agreement while the women look on horrified.  But there's science to back it up.  But thats another debate for another thread.  Speaking of which, with emotions running high, someone should start a climate change thread if there isnt one already.  i for one dont buy the Al Gore position ;-)

Okay, fair enough. If you want some facts, give me some time to give this the effort it deserves. I'm at work right now, but I will get back to this on the weekend.

Sure.  I actually was going to try and help you out by finding sources to say that humans SHOULD drink milk but so far most of the articles I find that are in favour of milk are very quick to qualify that position by denouncing store bought milk that is filled with steroids and hormones and points out that most people have issues with milk.  I have yet to find an article (outside of the government food guide) that pushes the idea humans should drink milk for its health benefits.

 

But I am very interested in whatever you can find that takes the position HUMANS NEED MILK.

Honestly the unknown posters entire argument here sounds to me a lot like the anti-vaccination peoples argument. "I read this study that links vaccines to autism, use some common sense here people, these guys are doctors!" 

 

Seriously buddy I'm not going to get into the validity of the study or not but if you can't see how closed minded your position is then I don't know what to say. You are claiming the common sense ground but you are so convinced that yours is the only possible position to have that you don't even acknowledge that another position might have merit. That's not common sense, that is simply being closed to other opinions. You made up your mind and everyone who doesn't agree is just an idiot. 

Sure. I actually was going to try and help you out by finding sources to say that humans SHOULD drink milk but so far most of the articles I find that are in favour of milk are very quick to qualify that position by denouncing store bought milk that is filled with steroids and hormones and points out that most people have issues with milk. I have yet to find an article (outside of the government food guide) that pushes the idea humans should drink milk for its health benefits.

But I am very interested in whatever you can find that takes the position HUMANS NEED MILK.

Never once said humans NEED milk. My position is that it can be part of a healthy diet that leads to a long, healthy life.

UP - you didn't include this quote from Dr Willett:

 

"Consuming a cup or two of milk or equivalent dairy is fine" - according to Dr. Willett, “The point isn’t that you have to give up dairy,” he says. “But it’s also important for people to know that they don’t have to drink milk to be healthy.”

 

 

The debate to drink or not drink milk, again, is an individual choice.

Do your own research if it concerns you.

My preference is to drink milk…I like it. 

My choice is Organic milk and it deelicious!

 

 

 

(Milk is certified as organic if it was produced following organic farming practices. Some of these include obtaining milk from cows given access to pasture as often as possible (some up to 22 hours a day), providing them with organic feed that does not consist of any harmful pesticides, chemicals, fertilizers, or genetically modified ingredients, and removing any cow treated by antibiotics from the herd for an extended period.) 

I have a nutrionist and she recommends milk to me. I don't believe she's trying to kill me. She told me that the hormones and steroids used will only harm you if you're injecting your milk, rather than drinking it. Otherwise your stomach is capable of getting rid of it during digestion.

 

So my advice is don't inject your milk and everything should be ok...

Honestly the unknown posters entire argument here sounds to me a lot like the anti-vaccination peoples argument. "I read this study that links vaccines to autism, use some common sense here people, these guys are doctors!"

Seriously buddy I'm not going to get into the validity of the study or not but if you can't see how closed minded your position is then I don't know what to say. You are claiming the common sense ground but you are so convinced that yours is the only possible position to have that you don't even acknowledge that another position might have merit. That's not common sense, that is simply being closed to other opinions. You made up your mind and everyone who doesn't agree is just an idiot.

The best part is that he claims it is common sense but he didn't know it until he read it in a book. Unclear on the definition of common sense I suppose.

I have a nutrionist and she recommends milk to me. I don't believe she's trying to kill me. She told me that the hormones and steroids used will only harm you if you're injecting your milk, rather than drinking it. Otherwise your stomach is capable of getting rid of it during digestion.

 

So my advice is don't inject your milk and everything should be ok...

 

And if you do….be aware of your cycle.

Honestly the unknown posters entire argument here sounds to me a lot like the anti-vaccination peoples argument. "I read this study that links vaccines to autism, use some common sense here people, these guys are doctors!" 

 

Seriously buddy I'm not going to get into the validity of the study or not but if you can't see how closed minded your position is then I don't know what to say. You are claiming the common sense ground but you are so convinced that yours is the only possible position to have that you don't even acknowledge that another position might have merit. That's not common sense, that is simply being closed to other opinions. You made up your mind and everyone who doesn't agree is just an idiot. 

 

I assume you havent read the entire thread.  I mean, think about what you're saying.  Are you taking the position that MILK IS GOOD FOR YOU AND MAKES YOU HEALTHY?  I have no skin the game to convince you otherwise.  I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die.  I dont know you (though I dont wish that on anyone).

 

Its one thing for you or anyone else to take the position that we as humans are able to live long and healthy by eating a moderate diet.  I wont fight you to the death over that.  As I have repeatedly said, I DONT practice what I preach, though I DO avoid milk.  I look at milk like soda.  I LOVE Dr Pepper.  I'd drink it all day if I could.  But I KNOW its bad for me.  I LOVE milk.  But I KNOW its bad for me.  You might disagree.

 

But again, Im not pushing ONE study.  Im saying The China Study is a great book that opens your eyes to new ideas.  You can do what you want with that.  But essentially the ideas it pushes are we should eat fruit, veggies, whole grains.  Period.  Are you arguing that eating like that is BAD for you?  You might not like to eat like that (I dont) but you really cant, with a straight face, argue that a diet like that is going to harm you.

 

Look, its easy to find counter-opinions to anything.  Google The China Study.  Its easy.  Im currently reading through one argument against The China Study and its very interesting.  However, the most glaring aspect is it pokes holes in the China Study's authors methods and accuses him of generalizations.  It thus far doesnt try to take a counter position that we humans SHOULD eat as much meat and milk as we can.  No one ever takes that position.  The anti-vegan position is either one of ignorance "if you dont eat meat you wont get enough protein" or simple arguing for the sake of arguing "well, you *can* eat meat and milk, it wont kill you".  Okay, sure.  Everything in moderation. 

 

Im not closed minded at all.  I WAS.  I believed the more protein, the better.  The more milk the better.  The more meat the better.  My vegan girlfriend couldnt convince me differently.  Then I read some books.  Then I watched some documentaries.  My mind became OPEN.

 

Go to your doctor.  Say "Doc, Im going to stop eating meat and dairy.  Im going to eat a diet of fruit, veggies and whole grains.  Im really excited about this.  What do you think?"  I guarantee your doctor wont say "thats a terrible idea.  That is not healthy."  Your doctor MIGHT say "you dont have to do that.  Eat everything in moderation and get some exercise."  Thats the Message for the Masses.  But in all likelyhood your doctor will say "Thats great!  Good luck with that!  Come back in three months and we will do some tests and make sure you're eating properly and getting all the vitamins and nutrients you need."

 

DOnt tell me Im closed minded because you are.

 

Sure. I actually was going to try and help you out by finding sources to say that humans SHOULD drink milk but so far most of the articles I find that are in favour of milk are very quick to qualify that position by denouncing store bought milk that is filled with steroids and hormones and points out that most people have issues with milk. I have yet to find an article (outside of the government food guide) that pushes the idea humans should drink milk for its health benefits.

But I am very interested in whatever you can find that takes the position HUMANS NEED MILK.

Never once said humans NEED milk. My position is that it can be part of a healthy diet that leads to a long, healthy life.

 

Crack can be a part of a healthy diet.  Loading a s chamber gun with 1 bullet, spinning it and pointing it to your head and pulling the trigger once per day *can* be a part of a healthy life-style...for six days anyway. 

 

My argument, which you disagreed with, was the optimum diet for humans is fruit, veggies, whole grains.  No milk.  No meat.  No dairy at all.  No animal products at all.  Get exercise.  I would LOVE to live that way.  I KNOW thats the best thing for me as a human.  It drastically lowers my cancer risk.  Im not preaching.  Because i CAN'T live that way.  Wish I could.  I get everyone who loves dairy and meat etc.  I really do.  The argument here is not that you can't have milk or you cant have a steak or you cant have cheesecake.  My point was, we dont NEED those things and if we were machines being run at optimum peak efficiency, we would never have those things.

 

I have a nutrionist and she recommends milk to me. I don't believe she's trying to kill me. She told me that the hormones and steroids used will only harm you if you're injecting your milk, rather than drinking it. Otherwise your stomach is capable of getting rid of it during digestion.

 

So my advice is don't inject your milk and everything should be ok...

 

And if you do….be aware of your cycle.

 

If your nutritionist really tells you that, please do everyone here a favour and give us her name/business location so no one else makes the mistake of seeing that quack.

UP - you didn't include this quote from Dr Willett:

 

"Consuming a cup or two of milk or equivalent dairy is fine" - according to Dr. Willett, “The point isn’t that you have to give up dairy,” he says. “But it’s also important for people to know that they don’t have to drink milk to be healthy.”

 

 

The debate to drink or not drink milk, again, is an individual choice.

Do your own research if it concerns you.

My preference is to drink milk…I like it. 

My choice is Organic milk and it deelicious!

 

 

 

(Milk is certified as organic if it was produced following organic farming practices. Some of these include obtaining milk from cows given access to pasture as often as possible (some up to 22 hours a day), providing them with organic feed that does not consist of any harmful pesticides, chemicals, fertilizers, or genetically modified ingredients, and removing any cow treated by antibiotics from the herd for an extended period.) 

Thats a fantastic quote that proves my point quite well.  You see how he qualified his response to essentially provide the Message to the Masses ' look, dont give up all the things you like.  the occasional glass of milk or shot of heroin probably wont kill you.  Everything in moderation".  But when you read his argument in favour of milk *not* being healthy you see that his point IS in fact that milk is not healthy.  The fact he qualifies that by saying "yeah sure, occasional use is fine" in no way diminshes the rest of what he said.  It doesnt suddenly make milk healthy and it doesnt suddenly make the government food guide gospel.

 

And I agree with you about milk being delicious.  I love milk.  But I love Pepsi too.  But I know I dont need either one of those things.

 

 

I have a nutrionist and she recommends milk to me. I don't believe she's trying to kill me. She told me that the hormones and steroids used will only harm you if you're injecting your milk, rather than drinking it. Otherwise your stomach is capable of getting rid of it during digestion.

 

So my advice is don't inject your milk and everything should be ok...

 

And if you do….be aware of your cycle.

 

If your nutritionist really tells you that, please do everyone here a favour and give us her name/business location so no one else makes the mistake of seeing that quack.

 

I'll refer her to this message board so she can find out the "facts".

 

I choose not to accept medical advice from an angry guy on the internet who compares milk to crack.

 

Honestly the unknown posters entire argument here sounds to me a lot like the anti-vaccination peoples argument. "I read this study that links vaccines to autism, use some common sense here people, these guys are doctors!"

Seriously buddy I'm not going to get into the validity of the study or not but if you can't see how closed minded your position is then I don't know what to say. You are claiming the common sense ground but you are so convinced that yours is the only possible position to have that you don't even acknowledge that another position might have merit. That's not common sense, that is simply being closed to other opinions. You made up your mind and everyone who doesn't agree is just an idiot.

The best part is that he claims it is common sense but he didn't know it until he read it in a book. Unclear on the definition of common sense I suppose.

 

 

Perfect example of an inability to debate an issue.  Attack the messenger.  Is that what I said.  I dont think so.  I said take facts and apply common sense to them.

 

But back when i thought I NEEDED meat and dairy, you're right, I had NO common sense in relation to that position.  Reading books and articles allowed me to open my mind and when I applied common sense to what I was reading, it became clear that we as humans do not NEED meat or diary.

 

And I have a feeling you agree with me but you dont want to "lose" an argument.

 

 

 

I have a nutrionist and she recommends milk to me. I don't believe she's trying to kill me. She told me that the hormones and steroids used will only harm you if you're injecting your milk, rather than drinking it. Otherwise your stomach is capable of getting rid of it during digestion.

 

So my advice is don't inject your milk and everything should be ok...

 

And if you do….be aware of your cycle.

 

If your nutritionist really tells you that, please do everyone here a favour and give us her name/business location so no one else makes the mistake of seeing that quack.

 

I'll refer her to this message board so she can find out the "facts".

 

I choose not to accept medical advice from an angry guy on the internet who compares milk to crack.

 

Yeah I wouldnt either.  Who's that?  Im not angry.  And I drew a ridiculous comparison to make fun of a ridiculous statement.

 

But again, if you think a nutritionish you advises you to drink steroid-laden milk because she thinks your body will filter it out, is a good source, by all means, go see her. 

 

But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me!  lol

You're doing the exact same thing that you are accusing us of. I say meat and milk can be part of a healthy diet, and you turn around and say "show me one person who says you need to eat as much meat and dairy as possible!!" Seriously, what is that? It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and that is the point that you just don't seem to understand.

 

 

 

 

 I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die.  I dont know you

 

 

 

But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me!  lol

 

Let's not play the hurt feelings game. Saying you don't care if somebody gets cancer and dies was my basis for calling you angry. If you're not angry it must mean you're just an ***hole.

You're doing the exact same thing that you are accusing us of. I say meat and milk can be part of a healthy diet, and you turn around and say "show me one person who says you need to eat as much meat and dairy as possible!!" Seriously, what is that? It doesn't have to be all or nothing, and that is the point that you just don't seem to understand.

No no, that is not what I am saying.  I believe you took the position that *not* eating dairy and meat was *not* optimum.  Im not saying those things at all.  Im fairly healthy and I eat meat and dairy.

 

My entire argument is that we are all smart enough to know what the best diet is.  But thats a hard diet to live by.  I can drink soda once a week and still live a healthy diet but we both know soda is bad for you and has no redeeming qualities besides taste.

 

If you say "TUP, I think meat and dairy can be eaten in moderation as part of a healthy diet but I agree that we as humans dont need those things and that the very best highly healthy diet would be one that consists of only fruit, veggies and whole grains with nothing processed", then I would agree with you 100%.

 

 

 

 

 

 I dont care if you drink milk, get cancer and die.  I dont know you

 

 

 

But hey, if you disagree with me, just insult me!  lol

 

Let's not play the hurt feelings game. Saying you don't care if somebody gets cancer and dies was my basis for calling you angry. If you're not angry it must mean you're just an ***hole.

 

No, I said I didnt wish that on anyone.  But if I hear that someone I dont know, never met etc got cancer and died, the only emotional response Im having is one of "I dont wish that on anyone".  Not caring was a poor choice of words.  I care about all humans to different degrees.  It wouldnt emotionally impact me, is what I meant.